Spunding time post transfer

[Zolet]

Hello All,

I brewed an IPA on 19th of this month, OG 1060, used good amount of yeast (BRY-97) and lots of dry hop. It was fermented in a corny keg (64F). I brew 1,5 galons only, so my fermentations are pretty fast (my record is lager in 3 days at 54F not using pressure, only airlock)

At day 4 I added the last DH, SG was 1030 (tilt measurement). After 48h I closed transfer the beer to another corny keg. SG was 1022. FG expected is 1020 according to BS but considering the DH I would expect less due to hop creep, so let's say, 1018-1016. I attached a spunding valve (first time spunding) to the corny keg and started to monitor the pressure.

Today I'm at day 4 of spunding. Pressure is increasing day by day (8 psi today). I guess this tail attenuation should take longer than I'm used because most of the yeast was left behind in the transfer but I'm starting to get very anxious!!!! (If not spunding I would be drinking my beer right now )

Does anybody have experience in spunding and can tell me if Is it normal to take this (forever) time (4days +) to attenuate (4-6 points) after the transfer?

More info: yeasterday I took I little sample an it's not infected. Unfortunately I forgot to measure the FG (planning to do that this today).

 

[Bassman2003]

Hi Zolet. Spunding is awesome and frustrating. In the end, always remember it is tied to your yeast, their activity and health. I would say, you probably have some room for improvement in your yeast process as four days down to only 50% of O.G. is fairly sluggish performance. Especially for a 1 1/2 gallon batch. How much yeast did you add? How old was the yeast? Dry or liquid?

A 1.060 ale should be expected to finish much lower than 1.020. Most spunders transfer with 7-4 gravity points above the end final gravity. At that time, it usually takes 2-4 days to get up to your carbonation levels. If you transfer too early you will hit the carbonation levels very quickly. Too late and the yeast are spent which will take a lot longer, but it often still gets there.

So, the key to spunding is getting your yeast process as strong as possible. Aim for 1.010 as your final gravity. This requires pitching a lot of healthy yeast so it can be strong right up to the end.

 

[Zolet]

Hu Bassman,

Yes, you are right, it's been kind of frustrating but my hope is that it gets exiting when done!!!!

My numbers were OG 1060 and FG 1020 - It's on purpose in order to increase mouthfeel, I mash at 162F - and actually I got 75% at day 4 (1030) and 95% at day 6 (1022). Pitch rate was calculate to be 1,4 cell/ml/Plato.

What makes me anxious is the last 5% taking days after spunding. Right now I'm at day 5. Yesterday I took a sample, beer it's great, lovely orange juice aroma and low bitterness (as I planned) and FG measured was 1020. It's seems also that pressure level is stabilizing. I'm gonna wait one more day only and cold crash, otherwise I will probably have psychologic issues heheh

I'm still not sure it should take this 5 days when spunding. In my experience not spunding, last 5% takes 1 to 2 days max... Anyway, you mentioned 2-4 days , so probably I'm on track...

 

[Dustin_J]

Hu Bassman,

Yes, you are right, it's been kind of frustrating but my hope is that it gets exiting when done!!!!

My numbers were OG 1060 and FG 1020 - It's on purpose in order to increase mouthfeel, I mash at 162F - and actually I got 75% at day 4 (1030) and 95% at day 6 (1022). Pitch rate was calculate to be 1,4 cell/ml/Plato.

What makes me anxious is the last 5% taking days after spunding. Right now I'm at day 5. Yesterday I took a sample, beer it's great, lovely orange juice aroma and low bitterness (as I planned) and FG measured was 1020. It's seems also that pressure level is stabilizing. I'm gonna wait one more day only and cold crash, otherwise I will probably have psychologic issues heheh

I'm still not sure it should take this 5 days when spunding. In my experience not spunding, last 5% takes 1 to 2 days max... Anyway, you mentioned 2-4 days , so probably I'm on track...

+1 to Bassman on the importance of healthy yeast/fermentation, it's amazing how much more quickly/smoothly it can make all of this go.

To your particular situation, what temperature are you spunding at - still ~64F? Did the sample beer yesterday seem somewhat-moderately carbonated? If you're down 2 points (from 1.022 to 1.020), that should be an additional ~ 1 volume of CO2 in your beer assuming a fairly full keg. At 64F, that should translate to ~ 17-18 PSI - something seems a bit amiss. It could just be touchy FG measurement (i.e it hasn't been exactly a 2 point drop), or it could point to a slight leak in the keg, spunding valve, etc that's slowly bleeding pressure off. Did you hit the spunding keg with 10-15 PSI of tank CO2 after transferring to make sure it sealed well? Also, you mention a 1.5 gallon batch - is that being spunded in a smaller/comparable size corny or a 5 gallon corny? If the latter, you have a lot more head space to fill with fermentation CO2 to hit a given pressure (and carbonation level), and you'll need some extra residual extract to do so.

 

[Zolet]

+1 to Bassman on the importance of healthy yeast/fermentation, it's amazing how much more quickly/smoothly it can make all of this go.

To your particular situation, what temperature are you spunding at - still ~64F? Did the sample beer yesterday seem somewhat-moderately carbonated? If you're down 2 points (from 1.022 to 1.020), that should be an additional ~ 1 volume of CO2 in your beer assuming a fairly full keg. At 64F, that should translate to ~ 17-18 PSI - something seems a bit amiss. It could just be touchy FG measurement (i.e it hasn't been exactly a 2 point drop), or it could point to a slight leak in the keg, spunding valve, etc that's slowly bleeding pressure off. Did you hit the spunding keg with 10-15 PSI of tank CO2 after transferring to make sure it sealed well? Also, you mention a 1.5 gallon batch - is that being spunded in a smaller/comparable size corny or a 5 gallon corny? If the latter, you have a lot more head space to fill with fermentation CO2 to hit a given pressure (and carbonation level), and you'll need some extra residual extract to do so.

Hey Dustin,

+2 to importance of healthy yeast/fermentation. I use to say that if I knew two years ago (when I started brewing) what I know today, I would spend more money on fermentation (yeast, stir plates, tanks) rather than on the hot side (automatic/electric brew system).

Anyway, yes, it's spunding at 64F. Yes, beer is carbonated. I see that you mentioned 64F-1vol CO2 to be 17-18psi but according to the carbonation table I have it is 1vol-64psi = 3psi... (my actuals are 64F-10psi = 1,4vol CO2 again, according to the source table I use...).

You are right, I measured everything using a Tilt before the spunding and the measurement I took yesterday was using a refractometer, indeed it can have a diference.

Regarding leakage, I calibrated the pressure using my CO2 tank to 20psi (last measurements I took it's seems to be stable at ˜10psi), so the valve itself should not be leaking, but I will double check on that.

I ferment using a 2,5 gallon corny keg and then transfer to a 1,5 corn keg. Attached 2 pdfs, one of the 1,5 gallon corny keg and other from the sample. Let me know what you think, please.

 

[Dustin_J]

Hey Dustin,

+2 to importance of healthy yeast/fermentation. I use to say that if I knew two years ago (when I started brewing) what I know today, I would spend more money on fermentation (yeast, stir plates, tanks) rather than on the hot side (automatic/electric brew system).

Anyway, yes, it's spunding at 64F. Yes, beer is carbonated. I see that you mentioned 64F-1vol CO2 to be 17-18psi but according to the carbonation table I have it is 1vol-64psi = 3psi... (my actuals are 64F-10psi = 1,4vol CO2 again, according to the source table I use...).

You are right, I measured everything using a Tilt before the spunding and the measurement I took yesterday was using a refractometer, indeed it can have a diference.

Regarding leakage, I calibrated the pressure using my CO2 tank to 20psi (last measurements I took it's seems to be stable at ˜10psi), so the valve itself should not be leaking, but I will double check on that.

I ferment using a 2,5 gallon corny keg and then transfer to a 1,5 corn keg. Attached 2 pdfs, one of the 1,5 gallon corny keg and other from the sample. Let me know what you think, please.

Hi Zolet,

Here's a random question, but did you happen to get your spunding valve off Ebay from LionBrewingSolutions? A few of us bought the Kegland valves from him and had very slight leaks with them before replacing the tubing (or just getting a refund). Both of mine lost a few psi per day when pressurized/removed.

As for the 17-18 psi for 1 volume, I should have been a bit more clear. I was referring to 1 "additional" volume of CO2. At 64F and atmospheric pressure, you'll already have ~.9 volumes CO2 in the beer just from fermentation (i.e., what would correspond with 0 psi on those charts). To get to ~1.9 volumes total (i.e. 1 additional volume), it'd take ~ 17-18 psi pressure. If each point fermented extract gets us ~.5 volumes ( as per Braukaiser), then each point at 64F should give us ~8-9 psi.

I like your little keg, by the way. I have one kicking around too and it's super handy

 

[Zolet]

Hi Zolet,

Here's a random question, but did you happen to get your spunding valve off Ebay from LionBrewingSolutions? A few of us bought the Kegland valves from him and had very slight leaks with them before replacing the tubing (or just getting a refund). Both of mine lost a few psi per day when pressurized/removed.

As for the 17-18 psi for 1 volume, I should have been a bit more clear. I was referring to 1 "additional" volume of CO2. At 64F and atmospheric pressure, you'll already have ~.9 volumes CO2 in the beer just from fermentation (i.e., what would correspond with 0 psi on those charts). To get to ~1.9 volumes total (i.e. 1 additional volume), it'd take ~ 17-18 psi pressure. If each point fermented extract gets us ~.5 volumes ( as per Braukaiser), then each point at 64F should give us ~8-9 psi.

I like your little keg, by the way. I have one kicking around too and it's super handy

Hi Justin

I bought them directly from china (aliexpress). They are kegland's. After your feedback I'm going to make a leakage test, pressurize it and leave for some days to see if something happens, thank you for the advice on this. Leakage you had was only in tubing?

Thanks for the explanation, I think I got it now: I was 2 point from FG before spunding (0,9vol from fermentation) and 2 points left will give me + 1vol. So I should be at 17-18psi by now (day 5) but I'm currently sitting half way (10psi). Is this right now?

If yes, Yeah could be a leakage. If it was a Lager I wouldn't bother wait longer to see if it it gets to the 18psi but considering it's an IPA with lots of Bravo, Amarillo and Simcoe I'm going take my chances and cold crash today, don't want the wonderfull orange juice smell I got from the sample to fade away .

Regarding the keg it is very cool indeed! I have two of those with the narrower neck and 2 of these I sent the image. I prefer the last, they have the same lid as the "regular" 5 gallon ones so it's pretty easy to clean inside.

I have a "Brülosophy" project here in Brazil (Zoletando – Medium - stopped right know due to the covid) and they are very easy to take around for performing the blind tests.

 

[Bassman2003]

If it has leveled off at 1.020, then that might be where the yeast is throwing up the white flag. Only two points of gravity would take a while to get higher levels of CO2. One other approach would be to aim for a lower F.G with your brewing process and stop the yeast by cold crashing. That way they are not spent when you are trying to get them to carbonate. So brew to 1.060 with an aim towards a 1.012 F.G. Throw the spunding valve on at 1.024 and when the beer is carbonated and reaches 1.020 drop the temps to shut the yeast down. Might be a process you can control a little more.