[SPOILERS] Star Wars - The Force Awakens / Rogue One

[Eugenio]

Oh one more thing: The whole Get plans to Death star 3, find weakness in it, and deploy attack all in a 7 second time frame....that drove me nuts.

 

[JonM]

My first comment on this thread was that the character and relationship development was rushed too.

Now that I've thought about a little more, the characters were pretty rich and well developed by the end.

And the relationship development was rushed in the OT. Luke was so broken up on the Falcon after Obi-Wan died, but I was thinking "Dude, you met him like yesterday." He was less upset when Owen and Beru died. But the little shortcuts were okay there, and now I don't mind it so much in Ep. VII.

As far as relationships, it doesn't take a whole lot of analysis to realize why Finn digs Rey right away, but I wasn't really sold on why she becomes so attached to him right away. Oh well. I think I need to see it again.

 

[lowtones84]

100% how I feel. Just saw it last night and I was dissappointed. I felt the movie tried to do so much, it was rushed. It sacrificed the storytelling that made the originals so good. I think this also costed in terms of ambiance, i never felt present in the movie, the world didnt swallow me in.
the same character that had aged, they felt completley different.

I also HATED the progress with Kylo, didnt like his character, and was dissapointed how he couldnt easily take out a stormtrooper and a scavenger. Didnt make sense. Took Luke 3 movies to be able to face Vader.

I agree with it being a bit rushed, but the first few scenes really did draw me into the world. The first scene with Kylo and the troopers landing to destroy that village, and the beginning of Finn's turn was great, as was Rey's introduction scene. The first 20-30 minutes of the movie I thought were fantastic, then it sort of devolved into what people are complaining about.

As far as Kylo, he is still developing himself. He's not supposed to be vader level yet. And I think anybody would be at a disadvantage in a fight if they got a surprise bowcaster round to the stomach minutes before!

 

[hoppyhoppyhippo]

I also HATED the progress with Kylo, didnt like his character, and was dissapointed how he couldnt easily take out a stormtrooper and a scavenger. Didnt make sense. Took Luke 3 movies to be able to face Vader.

I'm gonna disagree with you here.

First Vader was a full fledged of 30 years Sith Apprentice. He was arguably the most powerful force user in the universe.

Kylo Ren hadn't even "completed his training"

So the counter I'll give you, Luke was able to battle off for many minutes Vader in Empire Strikes Back. Luke was not a Jedi Knight at that point. How could a jedi in training stand up to one of the most powerful force users in the world?

Conversely you have someone training as a jedi/sith master battling a scavenger who's backstory we don't really know. Most people believe Rey had jedi training as a child and she's obviously gifted in battle with her quarter staff.

Then to add as well. In Clone Wars and the prequels we saw non-force users successfully fight full fledged Jedi Knights. General Grievous regularly out fought Anakin and Obi Wan. Others like Cad Bane were able to defend themselves with a lightsaber against Jedis like again Obi Wan.

Where they mostly fail is ability to battle force attacks. That's not something that Rey would have had an issue.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

So the counter I'll give you, Luke was able to battle off for many minutes Vader in Empire Strikes Back. Luke was not a Jedi Knight at that point. How could a jedi in training stand up to one of the most powerful force users in the world?

Who said Vader was trying to kill Luke? He wanted to keep him alive and turn him to the dark side.

Sure, Vader didn't dominate Luke. But remembering the battle scene, at what point did you think Luke had the upper hand in that fight? Never. That's what happens when a master is toying with his opponent.

 

[JonM]

Oh one more thing: The whole Get plans to Death star 3, find weakness in it, and deploy attack all in a 7 second time frame....that drove me nuts.

Yes. This was my only real complaint with the movie. In Eps. IV and VI, we got the impression that their best analysts had sat down with the plans and painstakingly analyzed them, looking for a weakness.

In Ep. VII, it was - Hey, let's hit it right there. Boom. Start the engines.

 

[hoppyhoppyhippo]

Who said Vader was trying to kill Luke? He wanted to keep him alive and turn him to the dark side.

Sure, Vader didn't dominate Luke. But remembering the battle scene, at what point did you think Luke had the upper hand in that fight? Never. That's what happens when a master is toying with his opponent.

Correct he wanted Luke Alive. But Ren wanted Rey alive as well.

To add as well Ren was wounded, and just went through an emotional wreck of killing his father so his body was hurt and his mind was severely distracted.

 

[JonM]

And remember that, at the end of the duel in Ep. V, Luke was drenched in sweat, beaten to hell, and freakin furious. That's exactly what Vader wanted.

 

[hoppyhoppyhippo]

And my gripe about the complaint about Ren vs Finn.

Again an injured Ren vs an emotional Finn. Finn was dominated the entire time. Aside from one successful slash if that.

 

[bob1852]

Yes. This was my only real complaint with the movie. In Eps. IV and VI, we got the impression that their best analysts had sat down with the plans and painstakingly analyzed them, looking for a weakness.

In Ep. VII, it was - Hey, let's hit it right there. Boom. Start the engines.

It was their third rodeo. I'm surprised they even needed any new plan.

 

[agrazela]

My biggest complaint?

Where the hell was Stimpy? He better be in the next one.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Yes. This was my only real complaint with the movie. In Eps. IV and VI, we got the impression that their best analysts had sat down with the plans and painstakingly analyzed them, looking for a weakness.

In Ep. VII, it was - Hey, let's hit it right there. Boom. Start the engines.

True, but I would point out that they weren't looking for a weakness that would destroy the whole battle station. They were looking for a quick hit to disable it.

It just so happened that because the weapon had just ingested the energy of a whole star, it became unstable and took out the whole planet creating a new star. They got lucky; it wasn't all to plan.

 

[kombat]

As far as relationships, it doesn't take a whole lot of analysis to realize why Finn digs Rey right away, but I wasn't really sold on why she becomes so attached to him right away.

She didn't. She openly disliked him, right up until the moment she (erroneously) discovered he was with the resistance. Then her assessment of him clearly took an obvious 180, as she perceived him as her ticket off the planet. Remember her longingly watching star cruisers taking off while she ate her lunch next to the decrepit AT-AT?

 

[JonM]

Yep. That settles it. I'm going to see it again this weekend.

 

[Homercidal]

She didn't. She openly disliked him, right up until the moment she (erroneously) discovered he was with the resistance. Then her assessment of him clearly took an obvious 180, as she perceived him as her ticket off the planet. Remember her longingly watching star cruisers taking off while she at her lunch next to the decrepit AT-AT?

Actually, she disliked him when she thought he had stolen a jacket from BB8's master. She's probably got a bad opinion of thieves from growing up surrounded by them.

And how is he her ticket off the planet? She's a pilot! And apparently one only has to jump into a spaceship and take off to leave the planet.

She didn't actually want to leave. She was waiting for her parents to come back to her. She DID find his asssociation with the resistance to be attractive, though. She was drawn to fighting the evil empire like her father before her.

 

[kombat]

Actually, she disliked him when she thought he had stolen a jacket from BB8's master. She's probably got a bad opinion of thieves from growing up surrounded by them.

And how is he her ticket off the planet? She's a pilot! And apparently one only has to jump into a spaceship and take off to leave the planet.

So she despised thieves, but you don't see why she didn't just steal a ship if she wanted to leave? You don't see any contradiction there?

She didn't actually want to leave. She was waiting for her parents to come back to her. She DID find his asssociation with the resistance to be attractive, though. She was drawn to fighting the evil empire like her father before her.

Good point, they implied she longed for the stars with the scene of her watching the star ship depart, but as soon as she got away, all she wanted to do was get back to Jakuu. Maybe she wanted a taste of space, but wanted to stay rooted on Jakuu to await her family's return?

 

[Homercidal]

So she despised thieves, but you don't see why she didn't just steal a ship if she wanted to leave? You don't see any contradiction there?

I think the laser blasts from the TIE fighters clouded her judgment at that moment.

 

[kombat]

I think the laser blasts from the TIE fighters clouded her judgment at that moment.

Of course - under the circumstances, she was willing to compromise her morals and steal a ship. I was simply pointing out why she didn't steal one sooner, since you implied that's all she needed to do if she really wanted to go into space so badly.

 

[Homercidal]

Of course - under the circumstances, she was willing to compromise her morals and steal a ship. I was simply pointing out why she didn't steal one sooner, since you implied that's all she needed to do if she really wanted to go into space so badly.

Yes, she was conflicted between staying to meet her parents again and leaving the awful conditions she was living in.

I must have misread your previous comment. I thought you were saying that Finn's arrival meant she could finally leave. In a roundabout way I guess that's true. But not because he was taking her away.

I might have to go see this again. Or DL it. I hear it's out in the Ether somewhere if you can stand recorded movie screens. I think if we go tot he movies my wife will want to see Hateful Eight.

 

[kombat]

I must have misread your previous comment. I thought you were saying that Finn's arrival meant she could finally leave.

I was, but now in talking it through with you, I don't think that was it. My original point was, she probably assumed that being with the resistance, he had a ship of some sort, and a means to leave the planet and travel. But you're right - she didn't actually want to leave Jakuu - she was waiting for her parents to return.

Now, I'm thinking her attitude changed merely because she was enthralled by the notion of the resistance itself, and here was a real-live resistance fighter right in front of her who could tell her all sorts of fantastic tales of bravery and struggle.

At any rate, that was clearly the moment when her opinion of Finn got completely flipped on its head.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

It was simply a situation of fight or flight. A storyline that spans milleniums, this one just focused in on a Falcon.

 

[JonM]

They left the planet to escape the Tie fighters, then bumped into Han Solo who knew where to go. Maybe? Am I remembering that right?

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

They left the planet to escape the Tie fighters, then bumped into Han Solo who knew where to go. Maybe? Am I remembering that right?

Somewhat. They were actually sitting idle making repairs and planning the next step when Han pulled them in.

 

[masonsjax]

I saw it for the second time last night. I was trying to focus on the details of the lightsaber flashback scene. You hear the voices of Yoda, Qui Gon, Obi Wan, and possibly some others. You also hear the voice of the guy that Rey sells her scavenged parts to saying "come with me little girl", or something like that. I would guess that she was at some point sold into slavery or put under the watch of that guy. Who was she waiting for and where did they go?

 

[hezagenius]

One or both of her parents is my guess.

 

[Pyg]

I saw it for the second time last night. I was trying to focus on the details of the lightsaber flashback scene. You hear the voices of Yoda, Qui Gon, Obi Wan, and possibly some others. You also hear the voice of the guy that Rey sells her scavenged parts to saying "come with me little girl", or something like that. I would guess that she was at some point sold into slavery or put under the watch of that guy. Who was she waiting for and where did they go?

In the flashback scene when Rey is left on Jakku you see her handed of to someone with a big puffy hand.
The bi puffy hand then says "come with me..."

My thought is that Rey is given to Unkar Plutt for safe keeping.
Unkar then gives her just enough ration to survive.

 

[JonM]

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1452867749.963628.jpg

 

[agrazela]

Old man, sitting in the Falcon,
Oh Han, look at that X-wing go
It’s being flow-n by Poe-oe-oe-oe
Not a Solo…

Kylo, picking on the wrong gal
Bad plan, probably related you know,
Rip off a classic show-ow-ow-ow
Is this Disney Star Wars?

“Disney Star Wars”
Not by David Bowie

 

[JonM]

Just saw it again. I am much more satisfied with how the Finn/Rey friendship developed. First she's enamored of the idea of meeting a resistance fighter. Then, they're working together then with Han Solo to accomplish a mission. Then when Chewie tells Rey that Finn went to Starkiller base to rescue her, that really cements the friendship.

And I noticed little details. When Rey fights off those two bad guys who are trying to take BB-8, then she confronts Finn, her knuckles are bloody. I like the little details like that that JJ includes.

Or Ren is feeling conflict and the pull from the light. As he's face to face with Han, the sun is slowly going out; the light is fading. It isn't until the light is completely gone that he goes full blown dark side and kills Han. Nice little metaphor/language of cinema thing there. And he made this wonderfully subtle little smirk afterwards because he was proud of what he did. Not only did he kill the father he felt had wronged him, but Snoke said confronting Han would be a test unlike any other that he or the other Knights of Ren had ever faced. He was proud that he had passed Snoke's test. Of course, Han said that Snoke was using Ren, so I bet we'll see more of something along those lines ...

Anyway, even better the second time around.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

27ages of discussion so I hope this hasn't been mentioned.

Has the idea of Rey being a force baby been discussed? Ala Anakin immaculate conception via midichlorians. I just don't want to think JJ went with Luke being her father, I guess the force-baby route feels contrived as well but I don't think Luke or Anakin were ever actually the "chosen ones" who brought balance to the force. If the Jedi truly believe in the concept of "balance" there needs to be the rule of 2 sith and then the Jedi to balance.

When Anakin flipped and killed all of the Jedi, the force swung dramatically towards the Sith. When Luke converted Anakin back to the side of light and Anakin killed Palpatine. The balance of the force swung back dramatically and left a hole in the dark side for Snoke and the Knights of Ren to fill.

I want to think that Rey and Finn will end up representing two sides of the same "neutral" coin and bring true balance to the force.