Spike Conical- observations and best practices

[eric19312]

You could go with a 2" TC to gas post? I guess it depends on if you prefer camlock, QD, or just TC.
https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/tc2blg.htm

uggh something else to order from @Bobby_M !



Edited to add...actually I did want that cam lock 2" fitting to pump from kettle to fermentor. All my kettles and pumps are set up for camlock so that was easy way to go. Can't remember how I built that hose. The TC to ball lock post is obviously easier and probably solution.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

Even funnier I also work in the automotive field

I'm getting about exactly 90 on the one that doesnt seem to keep my fermenter warm enough. I have to keep an extra space heater on it especially when using kveik

 

[brewohio]

I'm getting about exactly 90 on the one that doesnt seem to keep my fermenter warm enough. I have to keep an extra space heater on it especially when using kveik

I reached out to Spike to see what they say. He asked if it was directly plugged into the wall or into a controller. Also what I used to check temp and if it was calibrated.

Directly into the wall or controller shouldn’t change how hot pad gets only the duration of it being on. The Thermapen is new and while probably not best way to measure it it’s probably reading lower than actual temp it’s outputting.

Right now I just need mine to maintain 68-70 for a few days after fermentation slows as my basement is just above 60.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

I reached out to Spike to see what they say. He asked if it was directly plugged into the wall or into a controller. Also what I used to check temp and if it was calibrated.

Directly into the wall or controller shouldn’t change how hot pad gets only the duration of it being on. The Thermapen is new and while probably not best way to measure it it’s probably reading lower than actual temp it’s outputting.

Right now I just need mine to maintain 68-70 for a few days after fermentation slows as my basement is just above 60.

Mine are in a similar temperature basement as well. I agree well or controller shouldn't matter however I use the controller from spike that came with the temp control setup. I find it odd that one does just fine and the other one doesnt keep up but let me know if spike comes back with anything, maybe I'll get me one of those fancy infrared thermometers in the meantime.

 

[eric19312]

Mine are in a similar temperature basement as well. I agree well or controller shouldn't matter however I use the controller from spike that came with the temp control setup. I find it odd that one does just fine and the other one doesnt keep up but let me know if spike comes back with anything, maybe I'll get me one of those fancy infrared thermometers in the meantime.

Since you have two try swapping the controllers. Maybe the controller is the bad part.

 

[jturman35]

You could go with a 2" TC to gas post? I guess it depends on if you prefer camlock, QD, or just TC.
https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/tc2blg.htm

Thanks! I ordered this yesterday.

 

[brewohio]

Mine are in a similar temperature basement as well. I agree well or controller shouldn't matter however I use the controller from spike that came with the temp control setup. I find it odd that one does just fine and the other one doesnt keep up but let me know if spike comes back with anything, maybe I'll get me one of those fancy infrared thermometers in the meantime.

They emailed back and said they reached out to thermoworks and they said that ambient and external temperatures could cause false readings. Which shouldn’t cause it to read 130 if ambient temp is only 60 degrees. I wasn’t disputing that it was the right way but whatever. I plugged it in a few more times last night it seemed to heat up very hot then I think I heard an audible click or something must be the thermostat they mentioned. Then it seemed to run cooler but I guess that’s what they said it’s supposed to do and it should create a gentle warming.

I left it at that. I just wanted to verify it worked like it should. I could certainly purchase a far cheaper alternative to their $85 heater that just wouldn’t fit exactly on the cone or attach to the velcro in the jacket. I still might be one of those thermometers as well because I’m still curious.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

Since you have two try swapping the controllers. Maybe the controller is the bad part.

yeah, did that. still the same, it does heat just not as much as it should so i usually do my regular ales in that fermenter and if i do any kveik yeast i use the other one that heats better.

edit: i also have an inkbird temp controller that i am not currently using, maybe ill stick that on for the next one just out of curiosity.

 

[Yesfan]

Not to get off topic, but has anyone done a no chill beer with a conical? I've seen where some have no chilled in a corny keg. Since my next brew is gonna be 10 gallons, and I don't have any of those 5 gallon cubes the Aussies use, I thought I'd ask. If the created vacuum is an issue, I have a spare c02 tank I can hook up at low pressure.

 

[Nate R]

Not to get off topic, but has anyone done a no chill beer with a conical? I've seen where some have no chilled in a corny keg. Since my next brew is gonna be 10 gallons, and I don't have any of those 5 gallon cubes the Aussies use, I thought I'd ask. If the created vacuum is an issue, I have a spare c02 tank I can hook up at low pressure.

I did one time by force- my chiller was broken. I had always wanted to try it. I do not recommend it. It sucks up a bunch of C02 and the fermeneter gets very hot.
I think it can be done, but it is just not wise.
I think if you can chill to, say 100 or less, then xfer to your conical and cool from there, it is much more efficient.
I don't thank very many home glycol chillers are rated to take a 200+ degree batch to chill temps.
I stuck mine inside an upright freezer, and it took hours.

 

[Yesfan]

I did one time by force- my chiller was broken. I had always wanted to try it. I do not recommend it. It sucks up a bunch of C02 and the fermeneter gets very hot.
I think it can be done, but it is just not wise.
I think if you can chill to, say 100 or less, then xfer to your conical and cool from there, it is much more efficient.
I don't thank very many home glycol chillers are rated to take a 200+ degree batch to chill temps.
I stuck mine inside an upright freezer, and it took hours.

I don't have a glycol chiller/chiller coil for the conical. I was going to brew an IPA, and figured I would forgo my hop spider to see if I get better hop extraction after reading a recently posted thread about it. I've done that once before, but still plugged my plate chiller. This was even doing a 20 min whirlpool before hand.

I do still have my IM chiller. I could always use that, but I use a lot of water to chill it. This pandemic we have going on has made me worry about being wasteful in anything/everything.

 

[Nate R]

I don't have a glycol chiller/chiller coil for the conical. I was going to brew an IPA, and figured I would forgo my hop spider to see if I get better hop extraction after reading a recently posted thread about it. I've done that once before, but still plugged my plate chiller. This was even doing a 20 min whirlpool before hand.

I do still have my IM chiller. I could always use that, but I use a lot of water to chill it. This pandemic we have going on has made me worry about being wasteful in anything/everything.

Yeah... that was my concern when i first started brewing!! (I posted basically the same thing here).

Save the water maybe? You can manually flush toilets with it, boil pasta, etc...

Although really water should not be in any more conserve than before. Unless the city guys all get sick. Then we're f**ked, and, well... i wanna make sure i have enough beer then. So i am brewing today

 

[KookyBrewsky]

Does anyone have the TC-100 without using gycol? If so, how efficient/accurate is it using the alternatives, such as a cooler with ice water? Is it more of a hassle than anything?

 

[Nate R]

Does anyone have the TC-100 without using gycol? If so, how efficient/accurate is it using the alternatives, such as a cooler with ice water? Is it more of a hassle than anything?

I did use it for a few batches before i got a glycol chiller.
I used 4, one gallon frozen water jugs- two at a time. I used a standard igloo cooler.
I was easly able to maintain ale temps. Swapped frozen bottles twice a day. For a lager, i had to swap the bottles like 4 times a day.
It certainly worked, and maintained temps great. As long as i had the frozen bottles swapped on time.
Using extra ice and swapping bottles every 4 hours or so i was able to "crash" to about 42 or so. Maybe 41.

 

[KookyBrewsky]

I did use it for a few batches before i got a glycol chiller.
I used 4, one gallon frozen water jugs- two at a time. I used a standard igloo cooler.
I was easly able to maintain ale temps. Swapped frozen bottles twice a day. For a lager, i had to swap the bottles like 4 times a day.
It certainly worked, and maintained temps great. As long as i had the frozen bottles swapped on time.
Using extra ice and swapping bottles every 4 hours or so i was able to "crash" to about 42 or so. Maybe 41.

Sounds like I might as well save up and get the glycol chiller! Thanks

 

[Nate R]

Sounds like I might as well save up and get the glycol chiller! Thanks

Yeah... it kinda becomes a pain. I have a spare freezer in the garage, and at the time I was using water in 1 gallon jugs, so I had like a dozen frozen to swap out... but man, is it a pain! It DOES work very well to maintain temps tho.
If you are the least bit handy, you can DIY your chiller. My brew set-up is inside, next to the bedroom, so I needed a small and quiet setup- so I went with the Penguin.
There are so many threads (debates?) here on this forum so lots of opinions.
You are lucky that there are so many options now! Penguin, SS, Blichmann, Icemaster (like 3 versions!), Stasis, and DIY.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

i did it for a couple batches also, it only took 2 batches for me to decide on getting a glycol chiller.

 

[eric19312]

@KookyBrewsky you seem to be in same place I was for most of 2019...thinking about and planning to get a Spike unitank. Enjoy the process and keep playing with different options in your head.

The TC system is not the only way to control temperature. If you are doing a CF10 or CF15 a stand up freezer works really well and offers numerous advantages over going with the coils and glycol.

Sure you will be happy with Spike however you go and no need to hurry the decision, the daydreaming about it is part of the fun.

 

[Nate R]

@KookyBrewsky you seem to be in same place I was for most of 2019...thinking about and planning to get a Spike unitank. Enjoy the process and keep playing with different options in your head.

The TC system is not the only way to control temperature. If you are doing a CF10 or CF15 a stand up freezer works really well and offers numerous advantages over going with the coils and glycol.

Sure you will be happy with Spike however you go and no need to hurry the decision, the daydreaming about it is part of the fun.

Yeah... don't overlook this!!! The spike cooling function adds a bit of a price tag, plus a glycol chiller is $600-$1,000. So for the near $1,000, you can buy a brand new upright freezer and have like $600 leftover!! Or get a used even cheaper!!
One tip- get a good PID controller if you can. I was overshooting my temps by a LOT with my upright freezer.
That freezer now holds my covid-19 doomsday supply of meat, milk, and Thin Mints.

 

[eric19312]

Yeah... don't overlook this!!! The spike cooling function adds a bit of a price tag, plus a glycol chiller is $600-$1,000. So for the near $1,000, you can buy a brand new upright freezer and have like $600 leftover!! Or get a used even cheaper!!
One tip- get a good PID controller if you can. I was overshooting my temps by a LOT with my upright freezer.
That freezer now holds my covid-19 doomsday supply of meat, milk, and Thin Mints.

I'm doing fine without a PID controller. Controlling within 1 degree F is no problem. I am using combination of an always on recirculation fan in the freezer and a dual probe temperature controller.

 

[Nate R]

I'm doing fine without a PID controller. Controlling within 1 degree F is no problem. I am using combination of an always on recirculation fan in the freezer and a dual probe temperature controller.

Yeah.... my bad. We talked about this before. I had used a single probe (inkbird), no fan, and no heater.
Hence my poor results.
Why didnt i talk to you first eric??? Lol.
Oh well. Like i said, i have a freezer full of thin mints and a freezer ready to be made into a kegerator when my other dies

 

[KookyBrewsky]

@KookyBrewsky you seem to be in same place I was for most of 2019...thinking about and planning to get a Spike unitank. Enjoy the process and keep playing with different options in your head.

The TC system is not the only way to control temperature. If you are doing a CF10 or CF15 a stand up freezer works really well and offers numerous advantages over going with the coils and glycol.

Sure you will be happy with Spike however you go and no need to hurry the decision, the daydreaming about it is part of the fun.

Funny you mention stand up freezers, I was just Googling them before I came here to ask about them having remembered the picture of your conical in the upright freezer. The freezer works for me for two purposes : one is that I can continue using old gear perfectly fine, I can, if I get the right size, ferment two different 5 gallon batches of beers. OR I could ferment one 10+ gallon batch of beer using the conical. I think that's the ultimate win for me.

Now I just need to find a stand up freezer that can house two 22 inch tall fermenting buckets plus their respective shelves (height includes airlock) that doesn't break the bank.

 

[eric19312]

Funny you mention stand up freezers, I was just Googling them before I came here to ask about them having remembered the picture of your conical in the upright freezer. The freezer works for me for two purposes : one is that I can continue using old gear perfectly fine, I can, if I get the right size, ferment two different 5 gallon batches of beers. OR I could ferment one 10+ gallon batch of beer using the conical. I think that's the ultimate win for me.

Now I just need to find a stand up freezer that can house two 22 inch tall fermenting buckets plus their respective shelves (height includes airlock) that doesn't break the bank.

Go big or go home!

Kidding aside if you can picture actually using all three of those fermenters at the same time with perhaps different beers in them you are getting into the area where glycol's main advantage comes forward. With one glycol unit and three TC-100 packages (yah after you win the lottery) you could program those fermentors to all be running at different temperatures.

Even with two fermentors in a freezer you are going to have to pick one to act as the temperature signal. With good air circulation (muffin fans are great) inside the freezer this will probably be ok and the non controlling fermentor will likely follow the controlling fermentor very closely but its not like you can be doing a traditional lager in one and a belgian ale in the other.

 

[KookyBrewsky]

Go big or go home!

Kidding aside if you can picture actually using all three of those fermenters at the same time with perhaps different beers in them you are getting into the area where glycol's main advantage comes forward. With one glycol unit and three TC-100 packages (yah after you win the lottery) you could program those fermentors to all be running at different temperatures.

Even with two fermentors in a freezer you are going to have to pick one to act as the temperature signal. With good air circulation (muffin fans are great) inside the freezer this will probably be ok and the non controlling fermentor will likely follow the controlling fermentor very closely but its not like you can be doing a traditional lager in one and a belgian ale in the other.

Sorry, I didn't mean all three at once. I meant, either two 5 gallon bucket fermenter's of the same beer, or fitting the single conical CF10 in there. Not all three at once, nor all of different varieties here. This investment is my push towards quality over quantity, I can buy plenty of good beer, there's no point for me to make average beer, or try and ferment a whole bunch of different ones at once in a single freezer.

Something I saw someone doing is using a simple glass/jug of water to estimate the temperature of the fermenting buckets? That way I don't have to disturb the contents of the fermenting buckets or risk contaimination. Sure, it won't be completely accurate, but I can just turn the freezer on directly until the crystal thermometers on the buckets get to the specified temperature, and then just use a glass of water to keep the ambient temperature consistent with the Inkbird probe.

Otherwise, I could just do the traditional taping it to the side of the bucket which would give the direct reading anyway. Who knows, plenty to experiment with once I find the right freezer! Nothing I purchase will help my beer as much as getting temps under control.

So yes, summary : upright freezer that can fit two fermentation buckets + airlocks, OR a single Spike CF10. I just had a Sierra Nevada Torpedo IPA for the first time, higher ABV than I intended

 

[eric19312]

An upright freezer that will hold a CF10 will probably hold 4 buckets or carboys using one shelf. My first fermentation chamber was an old upright fridge I was about to throw away. Because of the freezer compartment on top and a hump in the floor it didn't have clearance for the conical even if I went with CF10 instead of CF15 (only difference between those is I think about 5" of height). I could never cold crash below about 36F and that would take a week but it did fine for a long time. Make sure you avoid one with coils in the shelves or a hump on the floor.

If you are patient you can probably find one used for less than $200 and get an inkbird, a heat source and a fan. You might be out $250 and then you can ferment in buckets while saving up for the conical. With multiple fermenters in one chamber I never really had a problem deciding which one would be the controller. If I had four in there and was brewing 10 gallons every week (say getting ready for a party) I'd always use one of the newest ones under theory that temperature control early in first week of fermentation is more important than in second week.

Do tape the probe to a fermenter and insulate over it so you are getting measurement of the beer. The water bottle trick works quite well for kegerators but not for fermentation chambers because fermentation generates heat. If you wait for the fermenter heat to build up in your bucket enough to heat up a near by bottle of water your yeast might get pretty toasty.

 

[Nate R]

I am a HUGE fan of open box scratch 'n dent specials from the big box retail stores!
Both my upright freezers came this way- brand new, with a warranty.
20.5 cubic foot was i think $325 or so. My last one is a touch smaller, $300.
( i am in CA so thoose prices may be inflated)
A little more than a used one for sure, but i like knowing it should last a while.
I was able to negotiate on both models. Look for big ugly dents and scratches. The uglier it is, the cheaper you can usually get it. Or, if it is missing inside parts like shelves or baskets. Usually we end up building our own shevles, but sturdier.

 

[eric19312]

Well I'm frustrated again. Thought I had this dry hopping technique down with my CO2 rousing. Did a decent yeast dump, pulled off maybe a gallon of yeast/trub/beer. Then added my dry hops...went with 12 ounces pellets to about 16.5 gallons of beer. Saw the sight glass fill with pellets and roused those guys back into the fermenter. Came back a couple hours later and did it again, still lots of whole pellets and didn't get as much movement. Came back next day (today) and have a solid mass of hops in my sight glass and 90 degree elbow. Tried blowing it back up into fermentor...went to 20 PSI on the gas below and no movement. Tried blowing some down with 5 PSI above the beer through the manifold and still no movement. That stuff is not going anywhere until I take apart the fermentor I guess.

I'm really not looking forward to kegging this batch and sad to see all those nice hops probably adding nothing to the beer. Not looking forward to kegging this.

Anyway I am still looking for a solution I guess. Has anyone tried assembling the tank with the 2" butterfly valve attached directly to the cone? I'm thinking
tank : butterfly valve : sight glass : elbow : barb/camlock : hose

I believe this would keep the hop pellets out of the plumbing until I am ready to dump.

I guess another solution would be hop bags, possibly suspended in the beer hanging from the 4" cap.

Thoughts?

 

[jturman35]

Have you tried crushing your hop pellets? I'm going to try crushing my pellets and letting them warm up before dumping them in. The last time i dumped 6oz in they all went straight to the bottom. At that time i didn't have anyway to get them back in the beer. Ended up with a NEIPA that smelled like a blonde ale. This was also the first time i tried dry hopping at cooler temp 65deg, Very unfortunate.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

if you suspend the hop bags just keep in mind how much space you need for 12oz. i did something similar and didnt account for that so the hops expanded and packed tight in the mesh and i feel i still didnt get good exposure on that batch. something to consider is to break your additions down. instead of 12oz all at one time do 6oz and then another 6oz 24 hours later. i believe i read something on another thread about a guy doing this and he had good results.

 

[eric19312]

So I did some research and decided that sight glass is likely not weakest point in system and increased pressure to 40 PSI and gave it a short burst. Saw some movement and gave it a bit more and worked that plug out of my plumbing back into the tank. Reduced pressure again and mixed it up again.

I kind of like the grind them up before adding idea.

 

[KookyBrewsky]

New question which may make me purchase a conical sooner than later.

Can I ferment an ale under pressure at 74F room temp without worry of off flavors? Or do I still need a decent cooling solution to counter energy release during fermentation?

 

[Yesfan]

New question which may make me purchase a conical sooner than later.

Can I ferment an ale under pressure at 74F room temp without worry of off flavors? Or do I still need a decent cooling solution to counter energy release during fermentation?

I've wondered this too. I don't need to pressure ferment my ales, since my basement stays in the mid 60s most of the year. My garage is a different story (the beauty of casters on these things) as it fluctuates. The hottest time might be mid to high 70s if it's in the 90s outside. IMO (and limited experience as a conical owner), I think there would be no difference other than temperature with ales and lagers pressure fermenting.

That being said, I wouldn't let that sway my decision in getting a conical. The biggest advantage with the larger conicals (or any larger fermenter) is the ability of having one vessel for large batches vs 2-3 five gallon carboys for that single 10-15 gallon batch.

 

[jturman35]

I have fermented under pressure with no noticeable off flavors. There is a slight chance the PRV/spunding valve could clog during the process which would be dangerous and messy.

 

[KookyBrewsky]

I've wondered this too. I don't need to pressure ferment my ales, since my basement stays in the mid 60s most of the year. My garage is a different story (the beauty of casters on these things) as it fluctuates. The hottest time might be mid to high 70s if it's in the 90s outside. IMO (and limited experience as a conical owner), I think there would be no difference other than temperature with ales and lagers pressure fermenting.

That being said, I wouldn't let that sway my decision in getting a conical. The biggest advantage with the larger conicals (or any larger fermenter) is the ability of having one vessel for large batches vs 2-3 five gallon carboys for that single 10-15 gallon batch.

I am absolutely getting a conical (CF10), but it'll be a large purchase because I'd need an upright freezer to fit it in order to maintain temps properly, since it could double for my 5 gallon buckets as well. It'll be a very expensive purchase as there are no used freezer around my rural beach town; the virus has made most relatively cheap ones out of stock as well from stores. Only thing I can find in stock is a refrigerator/freezer single vessel combo that has a toggle switch, it's $699.

If I could ferment under pressure at 74F in my room without an expensive freezer, I'd be willing to get one sooner than anticipated.

 

[eric19312]

Temperature control is

I am absolutely getting a conical (CF10), but it'll be a large purchase because I'd need an upright freezer to fit it in order to maintain temps properly, since it could double for my 5 gallon buckets as well. It'll be a very expensive purchase as there are no used freezer around my rural beach town; the virus has made most relatively cheap ones out of stock as well from stores. Only thing I can find in stock is a refrigerator/freezer single vessel combo that has a toggle switch, it's $699.

If I could ferment under pressure at 74F in my room without an expensive freezer, I'd be willing to get one sooner than anticipated.

Oh wow I see you are right. I am so sorry for pushing the freezer solution so hard. I would think this is a relatively short term problem and manufacturers will step up and meet the demand but it is probably going to mean that holiday sales, scratch and dents, and craigslist freezers may not be seen for some time (and in about 2-3 years I'd not be surprised to start seeing lots of them). I paid about $630 for this one back in October but see the deal price is gone and it is now over $800 and sold out with no mention of a resupply date anyway. https://www.bestbuy.com/site/frigid...upright-freezer-white/8943667.p?skuId=8943667

I have read mixed reviews about fermenting ales under pressure. Not sure it does the same thing for them that it does for lagers. I am also a believer in trying to hold temps steady when making beer from UK/US ale yeasts I use most frequently. Worst problems I had were when I saw big temperature swings during first 48 hours.

But if you like belgian styles or want to explore kveik yeast based beers you could be fine. In fact with kveik you might want to get a heating pad and keep your fermentor at something like 85F. This would work in a 74F room as you would probably always be looking to add a little heat and never really need to take away a little heat.

If you experimented with these beers for a few months my guess is there will be freezers available. If not and you get tired of those styles you can always go ahead and go to glycol later.

 

[Nate R]

I am absolutely getting a conical (CF10), but it'll be a large purchase because I'd need an upright freezer to fit it in order to maintain temps properly, since it could double for my 5 gallon buckets as well. It'll be a very expensive purchase as there are no used freezer around my rural beach town; the virus has made most relatively cheap ones out of stock as well from stores. Only thing I can find in stock is a refrigerator/freezer single vessel combo that has a toggle switch, it's $699.

If I could ferment under pressure at 74F in my room without an expensive freezer, I'd be willing to get one sooner than anticipated.

Maybe you can snag one soon if/when the hoarders try to dump some on craigslist.

 

[jturman35]

I don't feel like i have removed hardly any hop material after dumping the hops twice and crashing for 36hrs at 48deg, yet i can already see beer. Is there a chance there is a hop material layer above this pocket of beer? I don't have a 90 elbow so this is it, below the site glass is a racking arm. I have it pressurized to 10psi and cant get this last bit to dump out.

I'm afraid when i start racking im going to run into severe clogging as I'm not certain i have removed all 7oz dry hops.

 

[eric19312]

I don't feel like i have removed hardly any hop material after dumping the hops twice and crashing for 36hrs at 48deg, yet i can already see beer. Is there a chance there is a hop material layer above this? I don't have a 90 elbow so this is all the hops in the site glass. I have it pressurized to 10psi and cant get this last bit to dump.

I crash a lot colder than that but looks done to me. This is after dumping twice? Seems like you are ready to package.

 

[jturman35]

Yes, I just don't feel like i have removed maybe a quart of slurry, not the thick hop material so there has too be more hops somewhere above. I'm paranoid this is just a pocket of beer and there is hops trapped above? I wasn't sure if the material gets clogged where the conical meets the site glass. This a Neipa with 9oz total dry hops so i was thinking there would be a lot more hop debris. I had added 2 ounces at day 3 but think i got those out after soft crashing.

 

[Yesfan]

Just a curious question, but is there anyone here who don't/can't cold crash their conicals? I have an IPA in my CF10 and and plan on a dry hop. The last time, I bagged the hops and it clogged my racking arm. I may just see about tying off the bag to let it hang, but if just tossing the hops in commando is better I'll go that route. Just thought I'd ask first.

Planning on an ounce each of Centennial, Simcoe, and Columbus.