Spelt Saison Step Mash

[lowtones84]

Did a multi-step mash with a spelt saison. Raw spelt berries, no cereal mash. Expected 1.044 OG got 1.046 even with a half gallon more wort than expected. Could probably get away with just a protein rest, main mash, and mashout and still not have to cereal mash.

OG: 1.046
IBU: 31.5

6 lbs. Belgian Pils (65%)
2.5 lbs. Unmalted Spelt (27%)
.5 lbs. Turbinado Sugar (5.5%)
3 oz. Acidulated Malt (2%)

116F 15 minutes
132F 15 minutes
145F 40 minutes
152F 20 minutes
Collect First Runnings
168 Sparge/mashout 20 minutes
Collect Second Runnings

1 oz. Tettnang (3.5AA) @ 90 min
1 oz. Tettnang @ 60 min
.5 oz. Saaz (2.6AA) @20 min. 1/2 Whirlfloc tablet.
.5 oz. Tett, .5 oz. Saaz @ 5 min

Pitch 800ml Starter ECY 08 @ 76F. Ramp 2 degrees each day.

Probably gonna dry hop with an oz. of Saaz after fermentation is complete. Will post some pics soon.

 

[lowtones84]

24 hours later @ 75F in its very rustic setting.

 

[lowtones84]

 

[brownni5]

Sounds great! If spelt is similar to wheat (and from what I've hear, it is) then the gelatinization point is within mash temps - no cereal mash necessary.

Tettnang and Saaz in a Saison - mmm! And an OG under 1.050? I like the way you do business.

 

[leesmith]

Good article here: http://www.browneandbitter.com/2016/06/basic-spelt-saison-recipe.html

The article (and this one: http://thirdleapbrew.com/brewing/brewing-with-raw-spelt-saison-du-spelt/) leads me to believe a cereal mash is needed for the unmalted spelt.

I recently used malted spelt and did not do a cereal mash as I was under the impression it would convert at regular mash temps. At bottling the beer certainly had a little more body than say just a pils only beer. Taste wise it was hard to tell if the spelt contributed anything but either way the beer tasted good to me.

Micheal Tonsmire did an unmlated spelt beer without a cereal mash:
https://www.themadfermentationist.com/2012/08/spelt-it-right-saison-recipe.html

I guess the real questions for me would be: Do you need a cereal mash in able to get the flavor and mouthfeel benefits from unmlated spelt? Or is the cereal mash just there to enable the grain to convert its starches to sugars to ferment?

 

[lowtones84]

Sounds great! If spelt is similar to wheat (and from what I've hear, it is) then the gelatinization point is within mash temps - no cereal mash necessary.

Tettnang and Saaz in a Saison - mmm! And an OG under 1.050? I like the way you do business.

Yeah, I just write it that way because most people seem to think you need to do a cereal mash. I've done multiple spelt saisons without one, so I just wanted another data point for folks. The gelatinization temp thing seems correct, but then you also need the time to mash, and at the low temps we like for saisons it does take a while. Still preferable to doing a cereal mash for me.

Yup, I tend to go noble/classic hops for saisons. Here and there I play with American stuff, but nothing too aggressive. I don't want to make an American IPA with a saison yeast personally, not criticizing anyone who does. The OG is partly because my brewing partner never seems to design anything less than 8%, partly because I do want it to be that refreshing summer beer. Will probably check gravity and do the dryhop Tuesday.

 

[lowtones84]

Good article here: http://www.browneandbitter.com/2016/06/basic-spelt-saison-recipe.html

The article (and this one: http://thirdleapbrew.com/brewing/brewing-with-raw-spelt-saison-du-spelt/) leads me to believe a cereal mash is needed for the unmalted spelt.

I recently used malted spelt and did not do a cereal mash as I was under the impression it would convert at regular mash temps. At bottling the beer certainly had a little more body than say just a pils only beer. Taste wise it was hard to tell if the spelt contributed anything but either way the beer tasted good to me.

Micheal Tonsmire did an unmlated spelt beer without a cereal mash:
https://www.themadfermentationist.com/2012/08/spelt-it-right-saison-recipe.html

I guess the real questions for me would be: Do you need a cereal mash in able to get the flavor and mouthfeel benefits from unmlated spelt? Or is the cereal mash just there to enable the grain to convert its starches to sugars to ferment?

Yup, I've read all of those articles before. The cereal mash is certainly not necessary in my opinion, it's not my first time using unmalted spelt in this manner either. I think if you use a single infusion mash you may not get the flavor and body properties we're looking for, but that's just personal, anectdotal experience. I don't have any scientific data to back that up.

 

[leesmith]

Good to hear.
Thanks for the info.

Please let us know how the beer turns out.

 

[radwizard]

@lowtones84 How did you handle the milling? Same setting the rest of your grains?

I have been using a Malted Spelt in my last few Saison brews. I used to used a Rolled Spelt from Red Barn that I can not find anymore. I did not do a cereal mash with the rolled version. I recently found some locally grown Spelt available only in berries that I would like to use.

Your beer looks great BTW.
Cheers

 

[lowtones84]

Naaaah I busted out the old Corona mill with a tight gap and got in my shoulder and back workout for the day. Drill doesn't have the torque to do it. It's a pain, but I don't mind hand crushing my way through two pounds for a good brew. Seems a little more authentic if you have to sweat over it a bit.

 

[lowtones84]

Kinda crappy picture, sorry. FG is 0.998, nice. Sample tastes a bit more of bubblegum than I typically prefer, but some clove and spice in there as well. First time with ECY 08, ramped up to about 84F over a few days, this sample was taken 9 days after brew day. Dry hopped with 1 oz. Saaz, .5 oz. Tettnang.

 

[Comfort_Zone]

0.98? Looks more like 0.998

 

[lowtones84]

Not really sure how you could distinguish from this pic, but either way under the gravity of water. In person the 1.000 line was clearly under the liquid line, and looked more like .98.

 

[Comfort_Zone]

Not really sure how you could distinguish from this pic, but either way under the gravity of water. In person the 1.000 line was clearly under the liquid line, and looked more like .98.

Well, the 1.000 is below the liquid line, the next major graduation reads 0.990, and the hydrometer looks like it's in 0.002 SG increments.

 

[leesmith]

If we really want to split hairs here...at 84f and a hydrometer calibrated at 60f, .998 would actually be around 1.001.

But it got low...and dried out is really the important part.

 

[lowtones84]

Well, the 1.000 is below the liquid line, the next major graduation reads 0.990, and the hydrometer looks like it's in 0.002 SG increments.

Yep, you're absolutely right actually. Was a little buzzed and not thinking straight! Editing post.

If we really want to split hairs here...at 84f and a hydrometer calibrated at 60f, .998 would actually be around 1.001.

But it got low...and dried out is really the important part.

Right, that's the main point. But that sample certainly wasn't 84 F anymore. Tube and hydrometer were room temp, then it sat for 30+ minutes as my brew buddy and I sat around, had a beer, dry hopped, "shot the breeze," etc. So perhaps either way not incredibly scientific, but very dry nonetheless.

 

[brownni5]

My last couple Saisons have lacked adjunct sugars and haven't gotten near enough to 1.000 - might try you grist/step mash sometime. I likes 'em bone dry!

The first time I looked for raw spelt in the nearest chain health food store I found flakes, haven't been able to get them again. For me, I'm not sure I can distinguish spelt from wheat, but I'd like another test batch.

Edit: I see ECY has that strain listed as 75-80% attenuation. Another instance where we're supposed to think Saison strains are just like other ale strains...

 

[leesmith]

This is actually a pretty good read:

http://spontaneousfunk.blogspot.com/2015/01/saisons-farmhouse-ales-general-thoughts.html

His practices are a little counterintuitive to the style....a little more chloride (not NEIPA ratios). Helps body while the yeasts are still able to dry the beer out.

I’ve gone this route twice and have enjoyed the results.

 

[Comfort_Zone]

Something to remember is that most saison yeasts produce above average glycerol levels which increases the perception of body. 3711 is a great example of a yeast that ferments "dry" but doesn't produce a lifeless beer. Water chemistry is very much overlooked as well. Another part of the "dryness" is the carbonation level.

 

[leesmith]

....Another part of the "dryness" is the carbonation level.

I’ve experienced a few local commercial examples lately that fall short with the carb. Literally...no carb, to maybe 2.5 at the most. Proper carbonation does wonders for a beer.

 

[Comfort_Zone]

I’ve experience a few local commercial examples lately that fall short with the carb. Literally...no carb, to maybe 2.5 at the most. Proper carbonation does wonders for a beer.

This is much more common than I'd like it to be. I've had plenty of BGS and Tripels that the brewers are very proud of that are carbed to maybe 3 volumes at most. Westmalle is carbed to 4.0, Duvel to 4.25, and Orval can be as high as 5. The carbonation is part of the profile.

 

[lowtones84]

My last couple Saisons have lacked adjunct sugars and haven't gotten near enough to 1.000 - might try you grist/step mash sometime. I likes 'em bone dry!

Edit: I see ECY has that strain listed as 75-80% attenuation. Another instance where we're supposed to think Saison strains are just like other ale strains...

To be honest we've been adding sugar of some kind to damn near everything we brew. We were doing a lot of English beers before so it was also traditional there, making our own invert, etc. Our last saison we used a bunch of local honey at pasteurization temps. And yes, listed attenuation is always subject to your recipe, mash regime, etc. I wasn't expecting quite this dry, but figured I'd get 85% or more.

Something to remember is that most saison yeasts produce above average glycerol levels which increases the perception of body. 3711 is a great example of a yeast that ferments "dry" but doesn't produce a lifeless beer. Water chemistry is very much overlooked as well. Another part of the "dryness" is the carbonation level.

Interesting, I either haven't heard that or forgot, haha. The sample still had plenty of body, even uncarbed. I attributed it to 27% raw spelt, but I'm sure that plays in too.

I’ve experienced a few local commercial examples lately that fall short with the carb. Literally...no carb, to maybe 2.5 at the most. Proper carbonation does wonders for a beer.

Yeah, that's....sad. Our last saison we bottled at about 3.5 just to play it safe. We corked & caged most of it, but some it was in crown capped Tank 7 bottles. So far so good. We'll probably bottle this around the same. Should be bottling sometime between tomorrow and Tuesday, will update you guys then!

 

[leesmith]

Yeah just had another poorly carbonated Saison this weekend at a pretty decent brewery....really almost no carb.

Could it be they don’t sell as well and at serving pressure they loose their carb? With everyone buying the hazy stuff maybe they are on draft for a long time?

 

[lowtones84]

Yeah just had another poorly carbonated Saison this weekend at a pretty decent brewery....really almost no carb.

Could it be they don’t sell as well and at serving pressure they loose their carb? With everyone buying the hazy stuff maybe they are on draft for a long time?

Hmm, could very well be. If it's at a brewpub and they know the carb level it's supposed to be at, I would hope that they would keep it correct. I feel like a lot of breweries and pubs just kind of slap everything on at the same level and go, so that could be it too.

I also tend to think saisons are better bottle conditioned. I've had good ones on draft for sure, but the best I've ever had have always been out of bottles.

 

[lowtones84]

Bottled today. Hope you enjoy the super classy two liter. Didn't have enough bottles. The rest are corked/caged or capped in Tank 7 or Duvel Bottles @ 3.5 volumes. Named "Child's Play" for the 5% abv. Not really Child's Play I guess, but for craft beer... Anyhow, smelled phenomenal. Will crack one in five days because I'm impatient, and will update then.

P.S.: Don't buy the Belgian corks from Northern Brewer. I love NB, but these are garbage.

 

[leesmith]

Do you mind sharing time frame?
Brewday to bottle?

 

[lowtones84]

Do you mind sharing time frame?
Brewday to bottle?

Don't mind at all. The posts are pretty spot on date wise. Brew day was 5/25, gravity check + dryhop 6/4, Bottled 6/12. I prefer to only dryhop for 5 days, but life got in the way as it tends to when you don't brew as your occupation.

Brew-gravity reading + dryhop 10 days. Dryhop-bottle 8 days. Brew-Bottle 18 days. Will crack one on day 23 or 24 and let you know how it's progressing.

 

[lowtones84]

Cracked the first bottle, 5 days after bottling. Especially considering its youth, I was very pleased. Glass apparently wasn't as clean as I thought in the pic, apologies for that.

Tasting notes: Pours a half inch fluffy white head, receding to a thin but incredibly stable covering on the surface throughout the entire drinking experience. Effervescent, but not thin. For a 5% beer that finished at .998 it has incredibly body. Leaves no lingering sweetness on the palate.

First aroma and flavor is a combination of yeast and noble hops. I still get predominantly clove and bubblegum from this ECY08, but is less pronounced now, and relatively on the clean side for a saison. Spicy noble characteristics make themselves known, but do not dominate. Other than in the body, the spelt speaks on the tail end of the taste. A rustic (in a pleasant way) nuttiness or earthiness sticks around on the back.

 

[leesmith]

Cracked the first bottle, 5 days after bottling. Especially considering its youth, I was very pleased. Glass apparently wasn't as clean as I thought in the pic, apologies for that.

Tasting notes: Pours a half inch fluffy white head, receding to a thin but incredibly stable covering on the surface throughout the entire drinking experience. Effervescent, but not thin. For a 5% beer that finished at .998 it has incredibly body. Leaves no lingering sweetness on the palate.

First aroma and flavor is a combination of yeast and noble hops. I still get predominantly clove and bubblegum from this ECY08, but is less pronounced now, and relatively on the clean side for a saison. Spicy noble characteristics make themselves known, but do not dominate. Other than in the body, the spelt speaks on the tail end of the taste. A rustic (in a pleasant way) nuttiness or earthiness sticks around on the back.

View attachment 631803

How long do you bottle condition for?

 

[brownni5]

Yeah, I'd love to know how to get some quick bubbles. I struggle to get anything carbed in under 3 weeks, even using Bob Sylvester's method in MTF.

 

[leesmith]

I go for three weeks myself and usually push to 4...
I’m ok with that.
Big difference from 2 to 3 weeks i find.
Just wondering what his timeframe is.

I’ll have to check out Bobs method.

 

[lowtones84]

I don't really do anything special. This time I used turbinado sugar to prime to 3.5 volumes, boiled in about a pint of water. That went into the bottling bucket, beer racked into it with hose coiled around part of the bucket to make a nice swirl. Bottled as normal.

I typically test any beer around 7-10 days unless it's high gravity or particularly complex. With this one I was confident that our process was good, the yeast was healthy, and it was low gravity, so I tried one at 5 and wasn't disappointed. Stored warm, around 70 degrees. I'll have some more tomorrow at our next brew day honestly, it's ready to go. If you have any more specific questions I'm happy to answer them.

Brewing partner fully agrees that this beer is "fantastic" (his words) already.

 

[lowtones84]

This is coming along very well, pretty much everybody who tries it enjoys it. Pretty sure we've found the basis for our saison recipe and just try a couple of different yeasts, perhaps alter the hops slightly but keep the ratios and keep them in the classic/noble thing. I'll post a picture of a pint soon.

We did a "Belgian IPA" with not quite 15% spelt today and still exceeded are target OG by a bit. We're always doing step mashes but to me this concept is in the books. No need for a cereal mash. Maybe it brings something I'm missing but I get spelt flavor and don't mind not doing that extra step.

 

[leesmith]

I’ve been drinking these for a couple days now.

Simple...Pilsner and Spelt malt....EKG...Wyeast 3724

I detect no big contribution from the spelt malt. If I had maybe the same beer with and without I could tell some difference.

Beer is good...basic Saison.

 

[lowtones84]

How much did you use? I definitely taste it at 25%, but it's more on the back end as the initial hops and yeast contributions fade. I also used unmalted instead of spelt malt, but I would assume with a good percentage the results would be similar.

 

[leesmith]

How much did you use? I definitely taste it at 25%, but it's more on the back end as the initial hops and yeast contributions fade. I also used unmalted instead of spelt malt, but I would assume with a good percentage the results would be similar.

20%
Maybe its me but I can taste white wheat when I use it at that ratio. I also don't have experience with spelt and my not be tuned into the flavors it contributes. Mouthfeel is good though and over all its a good example of the simpler versions of this style Saison. The head retention is horrible though.