Speakers and stereo equipment

[passedpawn]

^^good tips, what about placement also? I have a big sliding glass door in my family room and I am starting to wonder if the speaker's sound best halfway in the room. Right now I have them moved pretty far out. I hear you passedPawn, sounds like you have a real difficult acoustic situation there.

Impossible actually. 4 glass french doors, larged arched windows, granite bar... I've even got a large fish tank in that room. Impossible!

When I go into the listening rooms at the high end audio places I'm so enraptured. My kids are all out of the house, and I'd love to make one of those rooms (3 spare bedrooms!) a listening room or home theater, but of course my wife needs to maintain the museums. Ugh.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

^^good tips, what about placement also? I have a big sliding glass door in my family room and I am starting to wonder if the speaker's sound best halfway in the room. Right now I have them moved pretty far out. I hear you passedPawn, sounds like you have a real difficult acoustic situation there.

Google the inter-webs about mapping a rooms peaks and nulls by frequency. Or download a free/demo software that can do the same. Corners and mid-length of walls are prime locations for peaks of most any mid-range to low-end frequency. Same applies to floors and ceilings. You have to think of the room as a cube. If you need additional emphasis on low end frequencies, placing the speaker in or near the peak will further energize said peak but, too much and it becomes muddy. Placing a speaker in a rooms natural null can help to smooth out an overly live room.

Impossible actually.

Non-sense. Difficult, yes. Not impossible. Aesthetics are the biggest challenge.

One of my contracts was to mellow out a in-home dance studio. Oak floors, high cathedral ceiling, mirrored or glass walls. The room was very live. Lows were muddy, and high were piercing. The amount of reverberation in the room made it sound like an echo chamber.

I built soffit style bass traps at a measured peaks using lay-in ceiling tiles and perforated hardboard. Made some cloud panels using the same. the room was far from perfect after I was done, but it was a far cry from the muddled mush of tinny highs and overly reverberate lows. To the point you could clearly make out each note and every lyric.

That job earned me $12k.

 

[passedpawn]

Google the inter-webs about mapping a rooms peaks and nulls by frequency. Or download a free/demo software that can do the same. Corners and mid-length of walls are prime locations for peaks of most any mid-range to low-end frequency. Same applies to floors and ceilings. You have to think of the room as a cube. If you need additional emphasis on low end frequencies, placing the speaker in or near the peak will further energize said peak but, too much and it becomes muddy. Placing a speaker in a rooms natural null can help to smooth out an overly live room.



Non-sense. Difficult, yes. Not impossible. Aesthetics are the biggest challenge.

One of my contracts was to mellow out a in-home dance studio. Oak floors, high cathedral ceiling, mirrored or glass walls. The room was very live. Lows were muddy, and high were piercing. The amount of reverberation in the room made it sound like an echo chamber.

I built soffit style bass traps at a measured peaks using lay-in ceiling tiles and perforated hardboard. Made some cloud panels using the same. the room was far from perfect after I was done, but it was a far cry from the muddled mush of tinny highs and overly reverberate lows. To the point you could clearly make out each note and every lyric.

That job earned me $12k.

Well OK, maybe if I made big changes to the room. I've got much more urgent home upgrades before I do that one

I've got a 7-channel system in there. The receiver I use now came with a microphone that you place in your listening position and it automatically equalizes the audio, but I'm guessing it's just leveling the speaker volumes and not actually affecting the frequencies like a real equalizer, but not sure.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Well OK, maybe if I made big changes to the room. I've got much more urgent home upgrades before I do that one

Targeted changes do not have to be big changes. Unless the room is empty and responds like a tin can, or so full it is acoustically dead, chances are a few targeted changes can have a big impact on room response. For example, wooden slat blinds slightly angled in front of a french or sliding glass door system can make a big difference between a localized reflection of sound, or a moderately diffused series of reflections.

The cost of the job I mentioned before was more about the labor to analyse and map the room and custom build the traps and diffusers. The materials were basic.

I've got a 7-channel system in there. The receiver I use now came with a microphone that you place in your listening position and it automatically equalizes the audio, but I'm guessing it's just leveling the speaker volumes and not actually affecting the frequencies like a real equalizer, but not sure.

What brand receiver?

I have a Yamaha with the same feature. They call it YPAO (Yamaha Parametric Acoustic Optimiser).

It adjusts SPL, and delay as well as checks polarity and freq range of the channel. With the parametric eq feature of the receiver on, it will attempt to flatten out the response too.

 

[dstockwell]

Check out Audiogon for used equipment.

 

[passedpawn]

Targeted changes do not have to be big changes. Unless the room is empty and responds like a tin can, or so full it is acoustically dead, chances are a few targeted changes can have a big impact on room response. For example, wooden slat blinds slightly angled in front of a french or sliding glass door system can make a big difference between a localized reflection of sound, or a moderately diffused series of reflections.



What brand receiver?

I have a Yamaha with the same feature. They call it YPAO (Yamaha Parametric Acoustic Optimiser).

It adjusts SPL, and delay as well as checks polarity and freq range of the channel. With the parametric eq feature of the receiver on, it will attempt to flatten out the response too.

That's it. Yamaha RX-V675. I think the problem is the room is just too big for a listening room. Ceiling is high and sloped. And, one end of the room is open to a large kitchen.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

That's it. Yamaha RX-V675. I think the problem is the room is just too big for a listening room. Ceiling is high and sloped. And, one end of the room is open to a large kitchen.

It will adjust EQ. But, obviously, only for a single listening point.

Even a small bedroom can be a challenge. When any particular room surface length equals half that of a given wavelength it creates standing waves. Or if the surface length is equally divisible by the wavelength. When the soundwave bounces off the wall, it doubles back on itself to the point that the original sound combined with reflections become monolithic and garbled. and wreaks havoc on the brains ability to localize sounds.

For example at a 40hz frequency the resultant wavelength is about 28 feet long from peak to peak. If you've a bedroom wall that is 14 feet long by 14 feet wide by 14 feet tall, the resulting standing wave will put the peak at 12 feet, and nulls in the corners. In the middle point of the room the energy overlap will cause the sound to be uncomfortably loud (at reference levels) while at the corners of the room it'll be starkly dull and quiet in comparison. If you've never had the opportunity to hear the difference for yourself, it can be quite ear opening.

 

[passedpawn]

It will adjust EQ. But, obviously, only for a single listening point.

Even a small bedroom can be a challenge. When any particular room surface length equals half that of a given wavelength it creates standing waves. Or if the surface length is equally divisible by the wavelength. When the soundwave bounces off the wall, it doubles back on itself to the point that the original sound combined with reflections become monolithic and garbled. and wreaks havoc on the brains ability to localize sounds.

For example at a 40hz frequency the resultant wavelength is about 28 feet long from peak to peak. If you've a bedroom wall that is 14 feet long by 14 feet wide by 14 feet tall, the resulting standing wave will put the peak at 12 feet, and nulls in the corners. In the middle point of the room the energy overlap will cause the sound to be uncomfortably loud (at reference levels) while at the corners of the room it'll be starkly dull and quiet in comparison. If you've never had the opportunity to hear the difference for yourself, it can be quite ear opening.

Makes sense. Room is 30W x 20 deep. At one time, the real problem was ambient noise in there, mostly from the fish tank (reef). It has an overflow that went to a large sump under it where I had pumps and filtration stuff. I removed all of that and now have the flow piped through the house outside wall to a shed outside! Almost all that noise went away (confirmed with my SPL meter). That helped a lot.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

That's it. Yamaha RX-V675. I think the problem is the room is just too big for a listening room. Ceiling is high and sloped. And, one end of the room is open to a large kitchen.

Cathedral style ceiling, or just a slope? Reflective clouds can help attain some symmetry for upper to higher frequency ranges. these do not have to be panels. Hanging art could provide enough surface area to balance out some of the reflected sound.

If the room is otherwise enclosed on the remaining three sides, and the wall materials aren't drastically dissimilar, speaker placement can help a lot. Pulling speakers away from the walls can help with clarity too by reducing early reflection boundary interference off the walls nearest the speakers (even behind the speakers).

If the walls are drastically dissimilar, the first thing to do is develop some acoustic symmetry. Lots of glass on one side, drywall on the opposite side? Large framed art work placed to mimic the glass will help to balance the room out. Or, heavy drapes in front of the windows will zap a fair amount of energy out of the reflected sounds.

Small room acoustics is first about tricking the ear to hear symmetry so that reflected sounds aren't distracting and causing listener fatigue. Second about attenuating or diffusing the modal response of the room. And lastly about emphasizing the primary impulses at varied frequencies for a relatively "flat" response (aka equalization). The first two have more to do with the room itself, while the latter should be more about the performance of the equipment provided the first two are addressed respectfully.

 

[pointcity-homebrew]

I was big into home audio fresh out of college. I worked at a repair shop.

I installed Bose cut in ceiling speakers when we first bought our house, repaired a Harmon Kardon receiver that someone did not want repaired. Paired it all with a Polk audio active sub.

Is it top of the line, no, but will blow you out of the house, ask my wife.

 

[passedpawn]

I have all Polk (7.1). The rears are cut into the ceiling above/behind the common listening position. Probably not ideal, but works great for the room decor.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Sorry, I'll stop now.

Room acoustics was/is a passion of mine. I always loved the challenge of "thinking outside of the box" on how to address a room for maximum affect with minimal impact. Physics with an acoustics discipline was my major/minor but I did not graduate. HT enthusiasts often can't/won't justify the expense for the room study. Civic centers aren't exactly a hot commodity in a specified area, and cinemas are cookie cutter designs with more emphasis on number of seats per screen rather than room acoustics. Not too many new recording studios being built these days either. Lest you are a staff engineer for LifeChurch.TV construction division.

That leaves the auto/airline industry. The focus there is more about noise cancellation and vibration decoupling. Fascinating to read about but not really my bag. Lastly would be product industry. Designing/testing baffles/diffusers for the retail market. I opted to pass on that too.

 

[passedpawn]

Sorry, I'll stop now.

Don't stop

[edit] unless you were gonna start touting oxygen-free copper wire

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Anyone here have opinions on Magnepan? http://www.magnepan.com/

My roommate after college bought a pair of their entry-level MMG speakers and I was pretty well blown away. Granted, they were the entry-level speakers which don't do bass well, but apparently they have a "super MMG" now that has improved that. They also didn't do the "overly hot" pop recordings well, but that's because they were accurately representing recordings that were mastered up with too much loudness.

But I found that when playing something like a live recording, or acoustic music, it was like being in the room with the artist. Some of the best sound I've ever heard out of a speaker.

It makes me wonder whether at some point I'd want to order the super MMG...

(And yes, I realize this might just be confirmation bias after reading their marketing materials lol...)

 

[DoctorMemory]

I scored an old pair of JBL 4311's for free in college. I have done some minor repairs and re-screened them and they sound pretty awesome to me!

I paid $400 for my Altec Lansing Santiagos in college. Good thing I had an apartment, because they were too big to fit in a dorm room. Unfortunately, they're really too big to fit in my current house, too, so they have to live in the basement. Nowadays I rock a much more modestly-sized pair of Celestion 300s.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Anyone here have opinions on Magnepan? http://www.magnepan.com/

My roommate after college bought a pair of their entry-level MMG speakers and I was pretty well blown away. Granted, they were the entry-level speakers which don't do bass well, but apparently they have a "super MMG" now that has improved that. They also didn't do the "overly hot" pop recordings well, but that's because they were accurately representing recordings that were mastered up with too much loudness.

But I found that when playing something like a live recording, or acoustic music, it was like being in the room with the artist. Some of the best sound I've ever heard out of a speaker.

It makes me wonder whether at some point I'd want to order the super MMG...

(And yes, I realize this might just be confirmation bias after reading their marketing materials lol...)

Not familiar with Magnepan, but there was a time in my life I wanted a pair of Martin Longan electrostatic BAD!

 

[passedpawn]

I've always just looked for a flat frequency response graph across the audible spectrum. No idea if those are still published - been a long time since I bought speakers.

 

[applescrap]

Anyone here have opinions on Magnepan? http://www.magnepan.com/

My roommate after college bought a pair of their entry-level MMG speakers and I was pretty well blown away. Granted, they were the entry-level speakers which don't do bass well, but apparently they have a "super MMG" now that has improved that. They also didn't do the "overly hot" pop recordings well, but that's because they were accurately representing recordings that were mastered up with too much loudness.

But I found that when playing something like a live recording, or acoustic music, it was like being in the room with the artist. Some of the best sound I've ever heard out of a speaker.

It makes me wonder whether at some point I'd want to order the super MMG...

(And yes, I realize this might just be confirmation bias after reading their marketing materials lol...)

I think steve guttenberg from cnet uses magnepan 2.1s in a 2.0 system. I have no knowledge or personal experience but i know people like them.

 

[Parabolic]

PMC - IB2s - with 6x Hypex Ncore 400´s - biamped/dsp crossovers / custom multichannel dac.

...last rig i´ll ever buy....

.... now I can focus on drinking

 

[applescrap]

Solid @parabolic. Right now i am running 5 rigs. Someday I hope to dial in like that on one good rig.
Upgraded my family room on the cheap. As people are dumping centers i picked up two to use as bookshelves. A little untraditional no doubt but nice speakers none the less.

View attachment 1487385820913.jpg

 

[kevink]

Anyone here have opinions on Magnepan? http://www.magnepan.com/

My roommate after college bought a pair of their entry-level MMG speakers and I was pretty well blown away. Granted, they were the entry-level speakers which don't do bass well, but apparently they have a "super MMG" now that has improved that. They also didn't do the "overly hot" pop recordings well, but that's because they were accurately representing recordings that were mastered up with too much loudness.

But I found that when playing something like a live recording, or acoustic music, it was like being in the room with the artist. Some of the best sound I've ever heard out of a speaker.

It makes me wonder whether at some point I'd want to order the super MMG...

(And yes, I realize this might just be confirmation bias after reading their marketing materials lol...)

Yes! I have a pair of Magnepan 3.6Rs and love them. I listen through a Classe CA-200 amplifier, Audio Research LS-7 tube preamp, Accuphase T-100 tuner (which rivals any source if you have good local stations), Jolida JD-100 CDP, Squeezebox, and an Oracle Delphi MK II turntable with an Eminent Technology ET2 linear tracking air bearing tonearm and a few reel to reel tape decks. The 6-foot tall ribbon tweeter on the 3.6Rs is an amazing piece of engineering that presents space in an almost eerie way on good recordings. It's crazy. I'm currently restoring a Garrard 301 turntable that I'm planning on using with my Eminent Technology ET2.5 tonearm (the one with the larger spindle) in a home-built plinth. It never ends!

 

[passedpawn]

Yes! I have a pair of Magnepan 3.6Rs and love them. I listen through a Classe CA-200 amplifier, Audio Research LS-7 tube preamp, Accuphase T-100 tuner (which rivals any source if you have good local stations), Jolida JD-100 CDP, Squeezebox, and an Oracle Delphi MK II turntable with an Eminent Technology ET2 linear tracking air bearing tonearm and a few reel to reel tape decks. The 6-foot tall ribbon tweeter on the 3.6Rs is an amazing piece of engineering that presents space in an almost eerie way on good recordings. It's crazy. I'm currently restoring a Garrard 301 turntable that I'm planning on using with my Eminent Technology ET2.5 tonearm (the one with the larger spindle) in a home-built plinth. It never ends!

Holy mutha. I just did a google search to see what these Magnapans were. That's a large (!) speaker. Pretty impressive looking speaker - I can almost here them vibrating through my screen. Not getting that past the Interior Decorating Committee. I can just see me coming home with a couple of those, which makes me think of this:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kE0pxRkMtQ[/ame]

 

[kevink]

Holy mutha. I just did a google search to see what these Magnapans were. That's a large (!) speaker. Pretty impressive looking speaker - I can almost here them vibrating through my screen. Not getting that past the Interior Decorating Committee. I can just see me coming home with a couple of those, which makes me think of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kE0pxRkMtQ

Haha, no,no, they're not like that at all. They do not play overly loud. They just sound like live music is being playen in front of you. They are very delicate and precise with lots of "air". You don't even hear the speaker if that makes any sense. I'm sure the speaker in that video (if it were real) doesn't sound like music at all.

 

[kevink]

Those look a LOT like a pair of Fried Audio towers I had for a little while. Decent speakers. I was more fond of Thiel Audio tho'.

I had a pair of Thiel CS 3.5s for years. I could not tame them no matter what I tried. Listening to them was actually stressful lol. Too much mid and high frequencies and the woofers would bottom out on certain tracks at louder volumes. They did image and do the space thing well, though. The EQ box went back to Thiel at least 3 times for adjustment. Jim Thiel himself did the adjustments the first few times. The 3.5s were an older model, but the newer ones with the coaxial drivers are supposed to be amazing.

Jim Thiel has since passed and the company was sold. The new owners got rid of almost, if not all of, the old staff and completely scrapped everything Jim devoted his whole life to. They threw out coaxial drivers, 1st order crossovers, and sloped baffles which is what made Thiels time and phase coherent. It's really a sad story. Everything he worked for is gone, and now the new owner is building crap similar to what you can buy at Best Buy with the Thiel name on it. It's ridiculous. I wonder what happened to all of the tooling that Thiel used to make their drivers. I sure hope that someone will start producing speakers similar to Thiels with it.

This dude totally gets it:

 

[arturo7]

I've had a pair of Thiels for over 20 years. Yes, they can sound a bit harsh. However, that problem was solved when I switched to a tube preamp and vinyl.

 

[kevink]

I've had a pair of Thiels for over 20 years. Yes, they can sound a bit harsh. However, that problem was solved when I switched to a tube preamp and vinyl.

That didn't totally help my 3.5s. Jazz and classical were okay, but rock and roll, not so much. The last straw was the new ownership. I knew it would be impossible to get replacement parts or drivers rebuilt since the whole company basically disappeared, so I dumped them while they were still operational. I don't regret it at all. There are thousands of speakers out there and one may really speak to you, but you won't know it until you get it in your room! I think the next for me will be ultra high efficiency speakers and flea watt tube amps. I have never heard such a setup.

 

[arturo7]

I think the next for me will be ultra high efficiency speakers and flea watt tube amps. I have never heard such a setup.

I'm looking at that as well. Probably go with a Bottlehead kit for the mono blocks.

 

[afro_lou]

Not exactly technically a "flea watt" setup, but one of the very best setups I've listened to for near-field listening is a pair of Rogers LS3/5A's driven by a pair of McIntosh MC-30's and a pair of B&W 12" subs. Exceptional imaging and sound field.
The only thing better is a set of Dunlavy SC-VI driven by heavily modified Hafler 500's. Those are on the other end of the spectrum, though...

 

[kevink]

Not exactly technically a "flea watt" setup, but one of the very best setups I've listened to for near-field listening is a pair of Rogers LS3/5A's driven by a pair of McIntosh MC-30's and a pair of B&W 12" subs. Exceptional imaging and sound field.
The only thing better is a set of Dunlavy SC-VI driven by heavily modified Hafler 500's. Those are on the other end of the spectrum, though...

McIntosh tube amps are cool. I have an MC-225 that I rebuilt/brought up to spec about ten years ago and it's never been in a system because I never had appropriate speakers for it. Here it is with the original power tubes and some Electro Harmonix.

 

[Stillraining]

I'm old School.....except for the IPod.....the turn table sits idle in the other room.

 

[Jwin]

4 years in and I'm still in love with my martinlogan motion 10s
Running the on a Yamaha vxsomethin. Was the only receiver I could find with a 6ohm out that wasn't more than I paid for the speakers.

 

[afro_lou]

McIntosh tube amps are cool. I have an MC-225 that I rebuilt/brought up to spec about ten years ago and it's never been in a system because I never had appropriate speakers for it. Here it is with the original power tubes and some Electro Harmonix.

Beautiful pics! Gotta love those softly glowing tubes.

Plug that bad boy into something! Doesn't matter what, it's gonna sound good! [emoji16]

 

[applescrap]

^^agreed awesome pics. I love it when you talk hi fi. Looked up those dunlavys again. Man they sound incredible. Also found out dunlavy and their labs were an hour drive and in Colorado Springs this whole time. Makes me hope maybe I can find a used pair somewhere. Not quite sure I could lift a pair of the sixes myself The concept is really cool. He believed in testing the speakers to ultimate performance not pixie dust.

 

[passedpawn]

I'm trying to suppress my audio envy. I shouldn't be looking at this thread. I sure don't need another obsession (the audio strikes, and does some damage, every few years).

Was on the way to the dog park today and heard the beach boys Good Vibrations. I remember hearing it was the most costly production of any song, ever, in it's day. I was thinking how cool it would be to have it on vinyl. I did at one time (dad gave me his BB collection, but that's LONG gone).

My buddy is a vinyl freak. I went to his office a few months ago and he had Take Five (Dave Brubeck) playing on vinyl in his office. The dynamic range blew me away. Might have been the small room, but man I swear I don't ever hear that with digital. I never realized how well those little grooves could perform.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmDDOFXSgAs[/ame]

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

My buddy is a vinyl freak. I went to his office a few months ago and he had Take Five (Dave Brubeck) playing on vinyl in his office. The dynamic range blew me away. Might have been the small room, but man I swear I don't ever hear that with digital. I never realized how well those little grooves could perform.

Shots fired!!!

Seriously, are you trying to start a [loudness] war in here?

That said, the "lack of dynamic range" of most digital sources is due to crappy recording engineers more often than any technical problem. The dynamic range of a CD is actually higher than that of vinyl, but too many recording engineers have pushed up the loudness on recordings.

A well-mastered CD is just fine.

 

[dstockwell]

Makes me hope maybe I can find a used pair somewhere. Not quite sure I could lift a pair of the sixes myself The concept is really cool. He believed in testing the speakers to ultimate performance not pixie dust.

Dunlavy Audio Labs SC-IV

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/f...-2017-02-12-speakers-34234-meadows-village-fl

 

[applescrap]

^^the speaker's look nice. Anybody know how they would compare with 801s? There are some thiel cs1.5 listed in Denver for 490 or something. Speaking of sales, I have a pair of CDM 1se and cm4 for sale.

 

[applescrap]

Pics, 400 for the amazing bookshelves and 550 for the towers

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View attachment 1487773967251.jpg

 

[afro_lou]

^^agreed awesome pics. I love it when you talk hi fi. Looked up those dunlavys again. Man they sound incredible. Also found out dunlavy and their labs were an hour drive and in Colorado Springs this whole time. Makes me hope maybe I can find a used pair somewhere. Not quite sure I could lift a pair of the sixes myself The concept is really cool. He believed in testing the speakers to ultimate performance not pixie dust.

They DO sound incredible! [emoji16]
They do have their downsides... you need a very large room to really let them "breathe," and very powerful amps to drive them. It's funny though, even with the 500w per channel we're driving them with, they don't "sound" loud... they certainly "feel" loud, but it's an odd experience.

Oh, and you're absolutely right about moving them! It took me and 5 other guys, a bunch of furniture and piano dollies, and a box truck to get them into my dad's studio... 500lbs each!

Shots fired!!!



Seriously, are you trying to start a [loudness] war in here?



That said, the "lack of dynamic range" of most digital sources is due to crappy recording engineers more often than any technical problem. The dynamic range of a CD is actually higher than that of vinyl, but too many recording engineers have pushed up the loudness on recordings.



A well-mastered CD is just fine.

Thank you for this! A very overlooked fact.
That being said, I love vinyl. [emoji16]

 

[Stillraining]

Shots fired!!!

Seriously, are you trying to start a [loudness] war in here?

That said, the "lack of dynamic range" of most digital sources is due to crappy recording engineers more often than any technical problem. The dynamic range of a CD is actually higher than that of vinyl, but too many recording engineers have pushed up the loudness on recordings.

A well-mastered CD is just fine.

Not positive but I think they call it compression... they compress everything into a muddled infusion where everything is evened out. Makes for easier radio transmission or something I guess..???