Sparkling Cider Questions

[Johnny_M]

I'm about 1 month from bottling my first cider. It has been sitting in secondary for 2 months now and is nice and clear. I have never made a sparkling cider before, only still cider, so I have some questions for the experienced. They are as follows:

• With only 3 months in secondary will I need to add more yeast when bottling? (I assume no since it hasn't been long and I fermented with champagne cider)
• Is it a good idea to add nutrients with the priming sugar?
• How long must the cider age for autolysis to occur? (I plan on 6 months in the bottle)
  
• Do you need to stabilize after disgorging if I'm going to sweeten afterwards?
• Is bentonite clay necessary for riddling/disgorging?

Any info anyone has for this these questions be much appreciated. I want to make sure I'm doing the right thing to produce the best clear sparkling cider I can.

 

[RPh_Guy]

With only 3 months in secondary will I need to add more yeast when bottling?

No, but it wouldn't hurt.

Is it a good idea to add nutrients with the priming sugar?

You can use a little Go-Ferm (not the full amount) if you decide rehydrate and add yeast. Other than that, no, don't add nutrients.

How long must the cider age for autolysis to occur?

That will largely depend on storage temperature. My bottles (without Brettanomyces) stored around 70°F develop autolysis flavors after about 9 months.

Do you need to stabilize after disgorging if I'm going to sweeten afterwards?

Yes. Mix it in with your sweetening solution.

You're actually going to use a traditional champagne method? I've never seen anyone do that. I'd love some pictures of the process!

Is bentonite clay necessary for riddling/disgorging?

I don't see why it would be, but it might help. Did you read that somewhere?

 

[Johnny_M]

You're actually going to use a traditional champagne method? I've never seen anyone do that. I'd love some pictures of the process!

Yes, I'm all set up with 48+ European style bottles (830-900g of glass, 29mm mouth, and 3 piece champagne corks). I am planning on leaving them in the cardboard wine cases on their side with the crown caps for 6 months, then freezing the neck (something I don't think is necessary if you've done it enough) and popping the top. Then sweeting with a simple syrup solution (x many g/L for brute or demi-sec, etc.) and corking them. My idea for riddling is either bite the bullet and buy or make a riddling board, or to try to do it in the wine boxes slowly but surely propping them more and more upright over a 7 day period. I will have to take pictures definitely because this is going to be nuts. I should really stop doing things the hard way just to impress.

Anyhow, my bottles will be at 70 degrees as well. My goal was to get the yeast to die so I wouldn't have to stabilize, but I guess better safe than sorry. I have read that champagne producers use bentonite to make fining their product easier hence my question. Maybe I should check on the white wine section of this forum, but I already think I read every thread related to the champagne method or disgorging.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I am planning on leaving them in the cardboard wine cases on their side with the crown caps for 6 months, then freezing the neck (something I don't think is necessary if you've done it enough) and popping the top. Then sweeting with a simple syrup solution (x many g/L for brute or demi-sec, etc.) and corking them. My idea for riddling is either bite the bullet and buy or make a riddling board, or to try to do it in the wine boxes slowly but surely propping them more and more upright over a 7 day period.

You almost certainly know this already, but just to be 100% clear, the riddling needs to take place before the freezing and disgorgement. Sounds like it takes a little practice to get the disgorgement process down.

Sounds like a fun project!

I've used bentonite several times but not really in controlled trials to know exactly what kind of effect it has. It seems generally useful based on my reading, so I use it. My wines with it have been really clear but I have a cider in secondary right now that has a stubborn haze despite bentonite in primary and kieselsol+chitosan in secondary, so I'm not sure there a guarantee with any product.

 

[Johnny_M]

You almost certainly know this already, but just to be 100% clear, the riddling needs to take place before the freezing and disgorgement. Sounds like it takes a little practice to get the disgorgement process down.

Certainly. I know my paragraph was a bit out of order, but you get the idea.

My wines with it have been really clear but I have a cider in secondary right now that has a stubborn haze despite bentonite in primary and kieselsol+chitosan in secondary, so I'm not sure there a guarantee with any product.

Yeah two of my 3 batches are crystal clear. One of the 5 gallon batches is slightly hazy, but it could also be the carboy. It's an old one my dad used for wine many years ago. Seems there might be some sediment on the sides but I won't know for sure until I open it for bottling next month.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Seems there might be some sediment on the sides but I won't know for sure until I open it for bottling next month.

I use a bright LED flashlight. If you can see where the beam is (looking from the opposite side)... It's obviously whether it's completely clear.

 

[Johnny_M]

I use a bright LED flashlight. If you can see where the beam is (looking from the opposite side)... It's obviously whether it's completely clear.

That's how I've been checking as well. Here is a picture from a week ago. One on the right is what I'm worried about. It's hazy compared to the other two, but not bad over all. I used a different juice from a local orchard and kind of jumped the gun on some other additions with the pectinase.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I agree, although it's a little difficult to say with a photo like that.

I think pectin haze doesn't cause any problems though, just a visual "defect".

 

[Johnny_M]

I agree, although it's a little difficult to say with a photo like that.

I think pectin haze doesn't cause any problems though, just a visual "defect".

I agree no big deal, but I wanted it to turn it out better with all the other work going into it. lol

Next years will be better I think. Still ironing out the kinks.

 

[bernardsmith]

Not sure if I understood you correctly. You are aiming to both prime the cider to make it sparkling but also stabilize to back sweeten? How are you going to do both? If you stabilize first then you cannot prime and if you prime first then how do you get in to stabilize and sweeten without losing the CO2? Champagne is usually brut dry though it may have a perception of sweetness. Is this 70 degrees F or C?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Traditional method in a nutshell:
Ferment dry
Bottle and prime (which carbonates)
Concentrate the sediment in the neck
Freeze the neck to create a solid plug
Remove the solid plug of sediment
Fill the headspace with sugar solution (and stabilizing agents to be safe).
Re-cork.

This creates a naturally carbonated, sweet, bottled, shelf-stable wine with no sediment and no pasteurization.

 

[Johnny_M]

Not sure if I understood you correctly. You are aiming to both prime the cider to make it sparkling but also stabilize to back sweeten? How are you going to do both? If you stabilize first then you cannot prime and if you prime first then how do you get in to stabilize and sweeten without losing the CO2? Champagne is usually brut dry though it may have a perception of sweetness. Is this 70 degrees F or C?

What RPh_Guy said. To add some extra clarification you first prime the bottles and put crown caps on them and age them for 2 months to a year. Then you open the crown cap to disgorge the lees after the bottle fermentation/conditioning and riddling has been completed. Not all carbonation is lost at once otherwise every bottle of anything carbonated would immediately erupt from the bottle. What can be done to help retain all possible carbonation is to chill the cider/wine before disgorging as water holds more dissolved CO2 when it is cooler. Now that the yeast lees have been ejected (and it is likely the yeast died with aging at pressure) you can sweeten the cider/wine before corking (also you can stabilize here for extra caution).

To comment on some other things it is 70 degrees F for my bottle aging. Also Champagne has sweetness ranges as seen here:

• Extra Brut (less than 6 grams of sugar per litre)
• Brut (less than 12 grams)
• Extra Dry (between 12 and 17 grams)
• Sec (between 17 and 32 grams)
• Demi-sec (between 32 and 50 grams)
• Doux (50 grams)

 

[doublejef]

Fun. I'd like to try it.
Any idea of what to use to stabelize after disgorging ?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Any idea of what to use to stabelize after disgorging ?

Sulfite and sorbate.
If you have never stabilized a wine before, I wouldn't recommend this process.

 

[doublejef]

I never did actually.
Here around, if sulfite are used, Producer have to print a warning on the bottle, it give you an idea of how people are seing the thing. So in home made stuff we prefer to avoid it as much as possible but I'm moreover thinking that in wine and cider making world, it's not really possible if you want to make some intersting stuff. So I'm working on it but also want use it as little as possible.

 

[Johnny_M]

I never did actually.
Here around, if sulfite are used, Producer have to print a warning on the bottle, it give you an idea of how people are seing the thing. So in home made stuff we prefer to avoid it as much as possible but I'm moreover thinking that in wine and cider making world, it's not really possible if you want to make some intersting stuff. So I'm working on it but also want use it as little as possible.

Sulfite is necessary to age wine or cider for any significant amount of time as it helps prevent the volatile flavor compounds from oxidizing. This along with tannin help wines and cider extend their drinkable life time. Sulfites bonus is that it also can help in the stabilization process along with sorbate.

 

[Johnny_M]

Sulfite and sorbate.
If you have never stabilized a wine before, I wouldn't recommend this process.

Have you ever gone there sulfite only route to stabilize? I hear that there is some risk to using sorbate that can cause off flavors to prevent themselves as the scorbic acid breaks down.

 

[Maylar]

Have you ever gone there sulfite only route to stabilize? I hear that there is some risk to using sorbate that can cause off flavors to prevent themselves as the scorbic acid breaks down.

It's the sorbate that prevents yeast growth. Sulfite alone will not stabilize the cider.
I've used it in almost every cider I've made in 10 years, never had an off flavor from it.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Have you ever gone there sulfite only route to stabilize? I hear that there is some risk to using sorbate that can cause off flavors to prevent themselves as the scorbic acid breaks down.

While I know it is possible, it's not something I would attempt with this process. It's too risky.

 

[Talin]

I was hoping to find my answer through this thread, but no such luck! I'm new here and since I can't yet start a new thread, I thought I would ask my question through here.

My question is about sparkling cider and pasteurisation. When you pasteurise, you're obviously killing the yeast and also providing a longer shelf life, I know you can make sparkling cider and pasteurise and it won't effect the carbonation... but does anyone know how to do that? Do you pasteurise immediately after adding the sugar and sealing the bottle? Or do you let it sit for a short while for the chemicals to react? Any help would be greatly appreciated!

 

[RPh_Guy]

When you pasteurize, you're obviously killing the yeast and also providing a longer shelf life

Killing the yeast, yes. Longer shelf life, no, not at all.

I know you can make sparkling cider and pasteurize and it won't effect the carbonation... but does anyone know how to do that?

Here's the thread you want:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/easy-stove-top-pasteurizing-with-pics.193295/
In a nutshell: add a bunch of sugar at bottling, let it carbonate for a few days or so, and then pasteurize.

Welcome to HBT! Cheers!

 

[Talin]

Killing the yeast, yes. Longer shelf life, no, not at all.

Here's the thread you want:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/easy-stove-top-pasteurizing-with-pics.193295/
In a nutshell: add a bunch of sugar at bottling, let it carbonate for a few days or so, and then pasteurize.

Welcome to HBT! Cheers!

Thank you for the quick response! This is great!

 

[Talin]

Hello again,

So, I am bottling my first batch of wild fermented cider today. I bottled one as a trial a few weeks ago, added 3g sugar before bottling for an effervescence, not too much sparkle. I opened it yesterday as it was pretty good, but I would like to make it sweeter. How much sugar is recommended for sweetness and sparkle? I am using 500ml beer bottles. Thank you!

 

[RPh_Guy]

How much sugar is recommended for sweetness and sparkle?

It depends completely on your personal taste. There's no cookie-cutter answer.

Sweeten a sample to your taste and then scale that up to the whole batch, plus however much is needed for your desired level of carbonation. Pasteurize when it hits your carbonation target.