Spa Panel Wiring for Dummies

[MyNameIsPaul]

If you care to do that PM me your 'stuff' and I'll call you.

Just saying.

Hi P-J I've got a really silly question that I need a brighter mind to answer but your PM's are turned off =(

You had sent me an AWESOME diagram a couple of weeks ago and I had a question about something on there.

 

[jeffmeh]

I really like your respose: However, I'd also like to talk out some issues that I see with your post.

If you care to do that PM me your 'stuff' and I'll call you.

Just saying.

P-J, I would be happy discuss it as I am always open to learning. That said, you don't appear to accept PMs.

 

[owentp]

I am wondering by your diagram P-J, do you have the neutral from the receptacle and the GFCI neutral lugged together? Having some challenges comprehending it. Looks like you have a separate neutral crossing from the neutral bar to the grounding bar.

Is that correct?

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

Holy dead thread...

This is how to turn a 3 wire supply into a 4 wire run to your panel. Here's how it goes...

Hot A and Hot B cary through the breaker - pretty simple.

Neutral goes to the terminal block (yellow wire going to block shown on left). The GFCI breaker has a neutral pig-tail, which is that curly white wire. It also goes to the terminal block (shown on left). Lastly, a jumper is run from the Neutral terminal block over to the ground terminal block. Ground and Neutral are normally bonded at the MAIN panel, but if you only have a 3 wire supply and you can't go and put in a new 4 wire outlet run all the way back to the main panel, this is the best way to go.

On the load side - the neutral line ties into the breaker (yellow wire coming out of the breaker), and the ground goes to your ground terminal (Green wire).

 

[Kian]

I currently am dealing with the same issue. I've had two electricians take a look and they both said I need a service upgrade (current 100amp panel is maxed out - not sure if they did a true load calculation as I was at work when they came to give the estimate). Either way the estimates for service upgrade + running new line for 4 prong 30 amp outlet with gfci were both $2,500. This is way more than what I had expected but the fault is on me for not doing the research before I started my build. I would really love to be able to run an 'extension cord' for lack of a better term from my 3-prong dryer outlet to a spa panel in my garage (around 50ft or so).

I'm not so worried about code requirements as I am about safety. Does anyone know if there is actually a higher risk of electrocution or other danger going this route if something were to happen? Safety is top propriety for me - however if this is just a matter of being compliant with code then I will definitely go this route. When I asked both electricians about this they said "As a licensed electrician, I cannot comment about the safety of a configuration that isn't up to code". Their response is completely reasonable and I get where they are coming from.

Either way if anyone has any insight regarding safety implications, if any, that would be great.

:::sorry for the long winded version of a simple basic question:::

 

[theichthus]

With a lot of google I upgraded my own service to 200 amps. I even had it inspected and passed. It wasn't too expensive at all. Is your service underground? That would make a huge difference...

 

[jeffmeh]

I currently am dealing with the same issue. I've had two electricians take a look and they both said I need a service upgrade (current 100amp panel is maxed out - not sure if they did a true load calculation as I was at work when they came to give the estimate). Either way the estimates for service upgrade + running new line for 4 prong 30 amp outlet with gfci were both $2,500. This is way more than what I had expected but the fault is on me for not doing the research before I started my build. I would really love to be able to run an 'extension cord' for lack of a better term from my 3-prong dryer outlet to a spa panel in my garage (around 50ft or so).

I'm not so worried about code requirements as I am about safety. Does anyone know if there is actually a higher risk of electrocution or other danger going this route if something were to happen? Safety is top propriety for me - however if this is just a matter of being compliant with code then I will definitely go this route. When I asked both electricians about this they said "As a licensed electrician, I cannot comment about the safety of a configuration that isn't up to code". Their response is completely reasonable and I get where they are coming from.

Either way if anyone has any insight regarding safety implications, if any, that would be great.

:::sorry for the long winded version of a simple basic question:::

Take a look at post 2 in this thread, as I tried to lay out the safety issues there. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/3-wire-240v-spa-panel-4-wire-out-again-372667/

 

[Kian]

Jeffmeh - Thanks - this is exactly what I was looking for. Never thought about running a dedicated ground from the main panel to the spa, that sounds like the most cost effective way/safe way to go - great suggestion.

 

[whoaru99]

Holy dead thread...

This is how to turn a 3 wire supply into a 4 wire run to your panel. Here's how it goes...

Hot A and Hot B cary through the breaker - pretty simple.

Neutral goes to the terminal block (yellow wire going to block shown on left). The GFCI breaker has a neutral pig-tail, which is that curly white wire. It also goes to the terminal block (shown on left). Lastly, a jumper is run from the Neutral terminal block over to the ground terminal block. Ground and Neutral are normally bonded at the MAIN panel, but if you only have a 3 wire supply and you can't go and put in a new 4 wire outlet run all the way back to the main panel, this is the best way to go.

On the load side - the neutral line ties into the breaker (yellow wire coming out of the breaker), and the ground goes to your ground terminal (Green wire).

Installing a spa panel doesn't turn a 3-wire supply into a 4-wire equipment grounding supply. Sure, you have four wires coming out but it's only an illusion of the purpose of a 4-wire supply which is to have a fully dedicated equipment/safety grounding conductor.

One can just as well keep only the three wires and pretend there is an equipment grounding conductor as the benefit of the fourth wire in that type of setup is all in the imagination.

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

At the end of the day, the ground and neutral are bonded at the main panel, right? So to me it seems logical that running a dedicated ground from the main panel is the best option. Doing the 3-to-4 conversion at the Spa Panel is the second best option. Just pretending you have a ground and basically bonding your ground and neutral at the control panel is the third and worst option.

It seems that the location of where your ground and neutral are bonded is the defining factor. The closer to the main panel (and further from you, the user, at the brewery panel) the better. If this is the case, then I would disagree with whoaru99 that there is no benefit in going the 3-to-4 route over just going the make-believe route. You're getting the ground/neutral bond further from you and closer to the main panel, where it should be, and hopefully reducing the resistance in the to-ground path such that stray voltage runs to ground and not to you.

Don't get me wrong - still not the best way to do it. And for the sake of "I know it's not code but is it safe" - codes are written for safety, and are modified when those who write the codes determine that there's a gap in safety. So you really can't split the two without coming up with your own definition of what "safe" is. Some people walk tight-ropes across the grand canyon without a harness or rope - everyone has their own idea of safety, but the national code seems to be the best bet for what an acceptable definition of "safe" is.

-Kevin

 

[raouliii]

......So you really can't split the two without coming up with your own definition of what "safe" is. Some people walk tight-ropes across the grand canyon without a harness or rope - everyone has their own idea of safety, but the national code seems to be the best bet for what an acceptable definition of "safe" is.

-Kevin

My two or three cents: Many participants in this forum come here for electrical advice because they are electrical novices. For the sake of their safety, the NEC should determine what "safe" is.

One major component of the definition of a safety ground is that it NOT be a current carrying conductor. A 120vac circuit requires a neutral, current carrying conductor. They can not be the same piece of wire and still provide the safety factor built into these requirements.

Most of these discussions center around wiring for e-brewing. Moisture, electricity and humans can be a deadly combination and the NEC has many sections related to the subject. Their are many lesser known/discussed requirements of the NEC that present the opportunity for not being followed in many novice ebrewing builds. Such as liquid and or vapor tight conduit and fitting use, wiring practices/conventions, and enclosure and component requirements, to name a few. Ignoring the fundamental grounding standards can greatly increase the hazard factor associated with not complying with these lesser requirements.

I firmly believe that providing an electrical novice with any advice other than "follow the NEC" is a mistake. But that's me.

 

[P-J]

raouliii, - (and others on the same band wagon)

With all of the "code" quoting going on, you all need to explain to everyone just how a 3 wire dryer outlet functions. The dryers have 120V and 240V devices within them. The same applies to electric stove outlets set up pre 2004. The outlets in use were installed pre 2004 and are to NEC code. What is being delivered is 240V and neutral. The plugin device (dryer or range) is also using the neutal conductor as equipment ground.

Please explain it all to the electrical novices.

geeze...

 

[raouliii]

I believe you've explained well enough. The fact remains that the NEC was changed in this area to increase safety. The functionality is certainly the same between the 3 and 4 wire schemes, but the 3 wire receptacle is less forgiving of faults occuring in the device plugged into it or the human building and operating that device.

A major difference here is that the dryers and stoves plugged into these grandfathered, 3 wire (H-H-N/G) receptacles are UL listed, manufacturer designed appliances.

The appliances being developed by e-brewers are much less likely to follow design standards that are incorporated into these retail appliances.

The fundamental safety that a separate ground provides in this situation is of primary importance, especially when it is associated with an electrical novice building an e-brew system.

 

[2Kegger]

P-J,

I got this spa panel and wired it according to your drawing, and tested the outlets with a meter. All was good until I tried the GFCI test button. Nothing happened. Am I to assume the GFCI is faulty in the breaker, or could I have wired something up wrong? The only thing I wasn't sure of was the ground to neutral wire. Does that go in to the bar or under one of the large screws on the bottom left? Does it matter? I see the GFCI went in to the neutral bar and was pre-wired that way out of the box.

Thanks for the help!

Here is the wiring setup you need to run from a 3 prong dryer outlet. You can mount a 4 prong outlet directly in the Spa Panel.
Link to the panel: HomeDepot - GE 50A 240V Spa Panel

Hope this helps you.

 

[P-J]

P-J,

I got this spa panel and wired it according to your drawing, and tested the outlets with a meter. All was good until I tried the GFCI test button. Nothing happened. Am I to assume the GFCI is faulty in the breaker, or could I have wired something up wrong? The only thing I wasn't sure of was the ground to neutral wire. Does that go in to the bar or under one of the large screws on the bottom left? Does it matter? I see the GFCI went in to the neutral bar and was pre-wired that way out of the box.

Thanks for the help!

Is there some way that you can show me how you have it wired? A picture?

P-J

 

[2Kegger]

P-J,

I am hopefully attaching a picture. I got a new breaker, and that fixed the GFCI issue. Expect for the fact it popped as soon as gave it power. When I removed the wire connecting the ground to the neutral, it worked just fine. Except now it's not grounded as far as I can tell. I may just run a wire from the ground bar to a copper water pipe about 5' away. Does that make sense? The wires coming in on the right are for the new outlet. The ones on the left are from the dryer outlet. Here's the picture without the bridge between the neutral and the ground:

 

[P-J]

The neutral to ground connection should be placed between the neutral buss (lower left) and the ground buss (upper right).
Do not make that connection from the neutral output side of the GFCI breaker.

 

[2Kegger]

That's what I had. The above picture, plus the wire between the two busses, but that kept causing the breaker to trip.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Home Brew mobile app

 

[P-J]

That's what I had. The above picture, plus the wire between the two busses, but that kept causing the breaker to trip.

Something is not right. Perhaps there is a ground fault somewere in your contol panel? Try disconecting the load output side going to the controller at the controller.

 

[2Kegger]

Actually, I don't have a control box yet. There's nothing plugged in to the new outlet yet. Hopefully it will be here in the next week or two. I am just trying to get ready for its arrival.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Home Brew mobile app

 

[2Kegger]

P-J,

YOU ARE THE MAN! I was at work today when I was posting. When I got home, I decided to reconnect that ground, just to see what happened. And just like that, it worked perfectly! No breaker trip. I can only imagine what went wrong the first time. Probably a loose connection or something. Anyway, thank you for your help! My setup is arriving tomorrow. Now. Any suggestions on how to cut a 6" hole through my house to install a vent and not tick off my wife at the same time?

 

[P-J]

P-J,

YOU ARE THE MAN! I was at work today when I was posting. When I got home, I decided to reconnect that ground, just to see what happened. And just like that, it worked perfectly! No breaker trip. I can only imagine what went wrong the first time. Probably a loose connection or something. Anyway, thank you for your help! My setup is arriving tomorrow. Now. Any suggestions on how to cut a 6" hole through my house to install a vent and not tick off my wife at the same time?

It pleases me that you got it working. Congrats!

Re: the vent. You might want to call a pro to have that done for you and/or you could do a Google search to get some ideas.

 

[kevreh]

P-J,

YOU ARE THE MAN! I was at work today when I was posting. When I got home, I decided to reconnect that ground, just to see what happened. And just like that, it worked perfectly! No breaker trip. I can only imagine what went wrong the first time. Probably a loose connection or something. Anyway, thank you for your help! My setup is arriving tomorrow. Now. Any suggestions on how to cut a 6" hole through my house to install a vent and not tick off my wife at the same time?

Pros use a bit for that. Check harbor freight for the cheapest option. Before you drill make sure there's nothing on the other side.

 

[bgural23]

Quick question if I'm going from a 3 prong dryer outlet into the spa panel and then out to controller with 4 wire will I be able to use 120 in the controller

 

[augiedoggy]

Quick question if I'm going from a 3 prong dryer outlet into the spa panel and then out to controller with 4 wire will I be able to use 120 in the controller

Heres what I found with a quick search...


https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/3-wire-240v-spa-panel-4-wire-out-again-372667/

 

[ajdelange]

Quick question if I'm going from a 3 prong dryer outlet into the spa panel and then out to controller with 4 wire will I be able to use 120 in the controller

Yes you can and do it in kosher fashion. Simply obtain a 240V to 120 V stepdown transformer. Run ø-G–ø to your panel and connect the ground to your conductive parts (boxes, stands, conduits, kettles...). Now connect the 240V primary between the two phases and, the secondary to your 120V circuit. The secondary is a 'separately derived system' (no conductor, phase or neutral, is connected to any conductor in the main system) and, therefore, the neutral (one side of the secondary) can be connected to the earth conductor at your box. As you are probably only going to run a pump or two, a controller and some pilot lights you shouldn't need a very large transformer. You could also use transformer with a 240V center tapped transformer and have a separately derived 4 wire (120 - 0 - 120) system if you wanted.

 

[skeletonkrew]

I plan on running off of the trusty dryer outlet as we'll. I bought about 30' of 10/3 sjoow 300v wire to plug to said dryer outlet; will run that to a spa panel. Am I able to use the same wire to run from the spa direct to the element? I am not using a control panel yet, and with current setup, I plan to only use one powered kettle, until I build the control panel. Can anyone offer me a little insight. I am no electrician and don't want to get electrocuted ,or burn the house down. Any info would be appreciated .

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

You don't say what amperage you expect to draw, but it should work for all but the most extreme of setups (given that you don't have a control panel).

 

[skeletonkrew]

Did some thinking and decide to go ahead and build the control panel. It will be basic at first but I plan to build it up well.
I was getting anxious, and wanted to try it out wired just to the spa panel.
so far the set up is a 10 GAL HLT w/5500w element
10 gal cooler MT/LT
15.5 gal (keg) BK w/ 5500w element
I think each element, running alone, is about 23 amps? I think. I plan to only run one at a time

 

[skeletonkrew]

Hey PJ quick question if you can respond I'm looking at your diagram and getting a little confused at the color coordination with the wires I'm using 10/3 wire from 3 prong dryer outlet 30 amp and want to use the same set up. Can you explain which color is ground and which colors are hot I'm dealing with white green and black. And the four wire coming off the GFCI, can u can you explain them individually