Southern Tier Pumking Clone??

[sivdrinks]

Yes, I mentioned it a few posts back. I ended up making a pumpkin pie graff and mashed with nilla wafers. It's still fermenting, so haven't been able to test it yet.

Missed that, long thread Definetely report back.

 

[raef]

Its about 20 drops per mil so if you dont have an accurate small syringe you can go off of drops--5 drops for .25 mils

so which recipe that you brewed did you like best?

 

[jnr1005]

Made the recipe on page 58 of this thread yeasterday. Not sure what the hell I did...but my end OG was way high 1.104ish. I may have boiled just a little too much, but I still ended up with just over 5.25 gallons. The wort tastes amazing, but I am a little concerned with the high gravity and how it will work with my yeast. I did use the ringwood strain, but I am not sure if my starter was large enough for the extra 20 points on the gravity.

 

[rachelclark21]

This might be a dumb question, but should I strain anything off between the boil and the fermenter or do all the spices go into the fermenter?

 

[waldzinator]

This might be a dumb question, but should I strain anything off between the boil and the fermenter or do all the spices go into the fermenter?

I think most recipes call for spices to be added to the last few minutes (flameout) of the boil. It would be very difficult to strain out fully-combined spices....let it go into the fermenter.

 

[CadillacAndy]

I think most recipes call for spices to be added to the last few minutes (flameout) of the boil. It would be very difficult to strain out fully-combined spices....let it go into the fermenter.

If you're kegging, I'd highly recommend making a tincture with the spices and adding them to cold, carbonated beer. This gives you the most control possible. Start off with less than you think you'll need, then add and taste. Repeat until you have the desired spice level reached. It's super easy to over spice and its easier to add more than to let it age and mellow.

You could probably even do this in a secondary if you don't keg. This way you can determine how the spice plays off of the fermented beer.

 

[cuda6pak]

I also followed stblindtiger's recipe. Changed a few things and used 1.5oz Watkin's vanilla extract in the keg as well as 1/4tsp ground clove in vodka (skipped it curing . I have to say the clove was way too much and completely overpowered the beer. I ordered some silver cloud estate pumpkin pie extract in an attempt to salvage the 5 gallons.

 

[jnr1005]

I also followed stblindtiger's recipe. Changed a few things and used 1.5oz Watkin's vanilla extract in the keg as well as 1/4tsp ground clove in vodka (skipped it curing . I have to say the clove was way too much and completely overpowered the beer. I ordered some silver cloud estate pumpkin pie extract in an attempt to salvage the 5 gallons.

Glad to know...I haven't put the clove in yet and was going to soak in with the vanilla/vodka mix..so maybe I will put in 1 clove to keep it light.

 

[Wheatmeister]

After years of making Pumkin ales i strongly urge you to not add the spices the last 5, fermentation is really going to alter their purpose. (they'll taste slighlty different and be less potent).

Add the spices to the secondary, keg, or botteling bucket. My best pumpkins have been done this way

 

[ErieShores]

^This
As it's been stated previously, Southern Tier does not boil their spices.

 

[Gixxer]

Unfortunately clove goes a long way... Sometimes you find out after its too late, for me too much clove makes my tongue numb... I use less than 1/8 tsp for my batches...

 

[waldzinator]

After years of making Pumkin ales i strongly urge you to not add the spices the last 5, fermentation is really going to alter their purpose. (they'll taste slighlty different and be less potent).

Add the spices to the secondary, keg, or botteling bucket. My best pumpkins have been done this way

I'm kinda at the other end of the spectrum, although I will admit that I was unaware ST didn't boil their spices. I prefer a bit more subdued flavor, at least from some of the stronger spices (cloves, for instance). I suppose a case can be made for boiling some, and creating a spice tea with the others for secondary. In true spirit of "cloning" Pumking, it probably makes sense to not boil them.

 

[cuda6pak]

^This
As it's been stated previously, Southern Tier does not boil their spices.

Wish I would have realized this beforehand

 

[Wheatmeister]

Wish I would have realized this beforehand

You'll probly end up with a good beer, but it won't be as close to pumking as you'd like. Been there.

Here's the deal, I've done alot of pumkins and I wish someoe would spared me the expiramentation before my first batch.

Boiling the spice is not ideal, you don't know how the final product will tast. Don't do it.

Adding the spice at ANY time before the yeast is done working, is not ideal. The fermentation process can and will alter the strength of your spice addition. Don't do it.

Instead, brew a normal brown/amber ale, pitch and let it ferment out. I suggest using some Maltodextrine that will give you the creamy body/mouthfeel ST Pumking provides. 2oz's per 5 gallons has been my addition. Add your spice tea (all of your spice's added to water, about 2 cups (that was previously boiled and has since cooled)) to your racking/botteling bucket or keg and ever so gently stir in. taste it. If you want more, add more, etc. Do not stir hard and oxygenate the beer.

This way, you have total control over just how "pumkin pie'y" you want your brew. Throwing it in last 5 or at flameout is just gambling and hoping it turns out - after flubbed batches I don't gamble anymore.

 

[insanim8er]

This way, you have total control over just how "pumkin pie'y" you want your brew. Throwing it in last 5 or at flameout is just gambling and hoping it turns out - after flubbed batches I don't gamble anymore.

+1

I try to tell everyone this. I make tinctures for every spice I use separate. I draw several samples in measured amounts and experiment with the doses. Once I find whats right, I scale it up. Take notes, so you know how much to use the next go. There is a lot less experimenting/wasting that way.

I'm about to brew an orange cream stout. Ill make a solid proven batch of milk stout then at kegging ill add my flavors. I have an orange extract and vanilla bean extract working its magic in the closet now. I also have all the pumpkin spices and a black pepper one going too. It only cost $12 for some vodka.

Plus, doing flavors this way makes you feel like a mad scientist. I need a lab coat for christmas.

 

[jnr1005]

My pumking clone is fermenting away...damn lid on the bucket keeps bulging even though there is an airlock with blowoff tube attached... I have released CO2 at least 2 times a day the last 3 days! (I'm trying to prevent a "caboom!" But so trying to keep everything sanitary.

 

[enkamania]

Its about 20 drops per mil so if you dont have an accurate small syringe you can go off of drops--5 drops for .25 mils

Is this in addition to dry spice additions or did you replace a dry spice addition?

 

[mallob9]

Here's the deal, I've done alot of pumkins and I wish someoe would spared me the expiramentation before my first batch.

Boiling the spice is not ideal, you don't know how the final product will tast. Don't do it.

Adding the spice at ANY time before the yeast is done working, is not ideal. The fermentation process can and will alter the strength of your spice addition. Don't do it.

Instead, brew a normal brown/amber ale, pitch and let it ferment out. I suggest using some Maltodextrine that will give you the creamy body/mouthfeel ST Pumking provides. 2oz's per 5 gallons has been my addition. Add your spice tea (all of your spice's added to water, about 2 cups (that was previously boiled and has since cooled)) to your racking/botteling bucket or keg and ever so gently stir in. taste it. If you want more, add more, etc. Do not stir hard and oxygenate the beer.

This way, you have total control over just how "pumkin pie'y" you want your brew. Throwing it in last 5 or at flameout is just gambling and hoping it turns out - after flubbed batches I don't gamble anymore.

AAAAAHHHHHHH I just did this on Saturday and hadn't checked this forum in a few days, wish I had! I added spices at flameout. I was planning however to check taste when putting into secondary and possibly adding some spices then, and maybe again at bottling.

Here's my recipe;

Recipe: PumJoker TYPE: All Grain
Style: Spice, Herb, or Vegetable Beer

---RECIPE SPECIFICATIONS-----------------------------------------------

SRM: 12.9 SRM SRM RANGE: 5.0-50.0 SRM
IBU: 35.0 IBUs Tinseth IBU RANGE: 0.0-70.0 IBUs
OG: 1.088 SG OG RANGE: 1.030-1.110 SG
FG: 1.023 SG FG RANGE: 1.005-1.025 SG
BU:GU: 0.396 Calories: 275.9 kcal/12oz Est ABV: 8.7 %
EE%: 72.00 % Batch: 5.00 gal Boil: 5.70 gal BT: 60 Mins

---WATER CHEMISTRY ADDITIONS----------------

Total Grain Weight: 17 lbs 15.6 oz Total Hops: 1.00 oz oz.

---MASH/STEEP PROCESS------MASH PH:5.40 ------

Amt Name Type # %/IBU
1 lbs Rice Hulls (0.0 SRM) Adjunct 1 5.6 %
14 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 77.9 %
1 lbs Victory Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 3 5.6 %
12.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L (80.0 SRM) Grain 4 4.2 %
1.00 Items Pumpkin (Mash 0.0 mins) Other 5 -
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 22.09 qt of water at 167.5 F 152.0 F 60 min

---SPARGE PROCESS---

Batch sparge with 2 steps (Drain mash tun, rinse with 2.85gal gently stir, let sit for 10 min, then drain) of 168.0 F water

---BOIL PROCESS-----------------------------

Est Pre_Boil Gravity: 1.079 SG Est OG: 1.090 SG
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
0.75 oz Magnum [13.70 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 7 29.9 IBUs
0.25 oz Sterling [6.20 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 8 4.5 IBUs
1 lbs Organic Coconut Sugar [Boil for 10 min] Sugar 6 5.6 %
4 oz Milk Sugar (Lactose) [Boil for 10 min] (0 Sugar 9 1.3 %
2.00 Items Cinnamon Stick (Boil 5.0 mins) Spice 10 -
0.50 tsp Pumpkin Pie Spice (flameout) Spice 11 -
0.25 tsp Allspice (flameout) Spice 12 -
0.25 tsp Cardamom (flameout) Spice 13 -
0.25 tsp Nutmeg (flameout) Spice 14 -

---NOTES------------------------------------
EPIC FAIL!!!! Forgot to add graham crackers to the recipe and thus forgot to add them to the mash!!!

This was my first all-grain and I would say it went pretty well, other than not adding the graham crackers (which i forgot to add to my recipe) and the fact that my efficiency was down at 65%. I need to mark my pots so I know how much water is in them perhaps get a sight tube for the boil kettle. Unfortunately my boil kettle only holds 5 gallons so that made the strike amount of 5.215 gallons unattainable. Also, my mash temp was a little unstable, fluctuating between 150 and 162ish. I don't really know what was causing this, I was stirring roughly every 10 min so the temp should equalize pretty quickly. I'm thinking of getting a more accurate thermometer, one that has a smaller gradient so it's easier to tell what the actual temperature is.

 

[BUCKNUTS]

AAAAAHHHHHHH I just did this on Saturday and hadn't checked this forum in a few days, wish I had! I added spices at flameout. I was planning however to check taste when putting into secondary and possibly adding some spices then, and maybe again at bottling.

This is an area where you won't find complete agreement. I would much rather add additional spices to the end of the boil to make up for flavor fading with fermentation etc. in the past ive made a spice tea at bottling and added a little then tasted until I had it where I wanted it only to have the spices become very bitter in the bottle. I just had a bottle of last years pumpkin ale and the harsh bitterness has finally faded. Again this is personal preference I'm sure many will disagree but I will never again add spices at bottling. I do have high hopes for this pumpkin pie extract I'm adding at bottling in 3 weeks as it smells amazing.

 

[elixir]

Imho this beer is cloned, pumpkin pie extract is their secret. Tasted it side by side. Good job bulldogbrewer!

 

[girdwood]

Imho this beer is cloned, pumpkin pie extract is their secret. Tasted it side by side. Good job bulldogbrewer!

So which recipe did you use to alter it to the pumpkin pie extract?

 

[insanim8er]

Imho this beer is cloned, pumpkin pie extract is their secret. Tasted it side by side. Good job bulldogbrewer!

I highly doubt it. I doubt they use any type of flavoring extract, or it would show on the label.

The flavor profile is buttered rum. They're probably using Ringwood to get diacetyl, filtering the yeat then getting rum flavors from rum addition, using rum to extract their spices, and/or they're using a lot of brown sugar to get that rum flavor. And it's super heavy in nutmeg.

Look at rouge hazelnut brown nectar. Look at the shocktop honeycrisp apple wheat. They absolutely use flavor additives, and its on the label.

 

[BUCKNUTS]

I highly doubt it. I doubt they use any type of flavoring extract, or it would show on the label. The flavor profile is buttered rum. They're probably using Ringwood to get diacetyl, filtering the yeat then getting rum flavors from rum addition, using rum to extract their spices, and/or they're using a lot of brown sugar to get that rum flavor. And it's super heavy in nutmeg. Look at rouge hazelnut brown nectar. Look at the shocktop honeycrisp apple wheat. They absolutely use flavor additives, and its on the label.

There is an artificial flavor to pumpking I have always thought it contained an extract

 

[elixir]

I highly doubt it. I doubt they use any type of flavoring extract, or it would show on the label.

The flavor profile is buttered rum. They're probably using Ringwood to get diacetyl, filtering the yeat then getting rum flavors from rum addition, using rum to extract their spices, and/or they're using a lot of brown sugar to get that rum flavor. And it's super heavy in nutmeg.

Look at rouge hazelnut brown nectar. Look at the shocktop honeycrisp apple wheat. They absolutely use flavor additives, and its on the label.

There is pumpkin pie extract in pumpking, dont believe me. I am using it in gdlaws recipe with great results and my local brewery is now using it. If you knew their exact grain bill/ mash schedule/ hop amounts/ yeast you could make an exact clone

 

[elixir]

I find that the pumpkin pie extract flavor is so domimant in the flavor profile that even if you werent spot on with st's malt bill it would still taste like pumking

 

[insanim8er]

Well if they're using extract, they're breaking the labeling laws. I'm pretty positive it's not in there.

I'm glad you're getting good results, but I read through this entire thread and I've seena few people who swore they had a clone as well using graham cracker or butter nut extracts. Plus I've seen recipes using more than two grains. It's all on the label.

I think the artificial flavoring being detected is their spice profile extracted with rum. The dominate flavor being nutmeg.

I'm not a huge pumking fan. I just had another one last night and it tastes like a cold butter rum beer.

Now schlafly, they have a damn good pumpkin ale. The nutmeg is also strong in it. I feel it's similar to pumking, but its way better. It's smoother,less bitter and a little heavier in vanilla and spice. It truly is what I think of when I thinks of pumpkin ale.

 

[sfrisby]

Well if they're using extract, they're breaking the labeling laws.

I think the artificial flavoring being detected is their spice profile extracted with rum. The dominate flavor being nutmeg.
.

By your argument, wouldn't rum then be on the label?

 

[insanim8er]

By your argument, wouldn't rum then be on the label?

I knew someone would say that. It's not made in a laboratory through natural or artificial means. It's also known that they use alcohol to extract their spices. This has come from southern tier.

Also from what I read, the Plato numbers are contradictory. Means it's logical to asume alcohol is being added.

Take it for what it's worth. My 2¢

 

[Wheatmeister]

There is pumpkin pie extract in pumpking, dont believe me. I am using it in gdlaws recipe with great results and my local brewery is now using it. If you knew their exact grain bill/ mash schedule/ hop amounts/ yeast you could make an exact clone

Ok. I don't believe you. They don't use extract.

 

[Nike_Eayrs]

I'm making a second attempt brewing this up this weekend. Crashed and burned on the first one. Stuck sparge with the pumpkin in the mash. I'm throwing it in the boil late this time.

In regards to those hwo have used the extract. Can you provide the amount used in something other than drops? Are we talking a teaspoon, tablespoon....for a 5 gallon batch? I'm trying to limit the adding and mixing as it will make the beer cloudy once in the keg. Thanks for all the help!