Souring a saison

[Brizzo]

I had a saison that I brewed with fresh hops about 3 weeks ago as part of a 10 gallon split batch. I turned 5 gallons into a pale with a massive hop stand for 90 minutes post boil.

The saison I bittered lightly with magnum and used fresh mt hood post boil. I tasted it today as I was racking into the secondary and it was a solid saison, as good as anything I have tried commercialy. Mine was an all grain batch that used 2 row, Vienna, wheat, rye and crystal

Since both my kegs are full I decided to add the dreggs of an alvinne cuvée Freddy that I picked up yesterday. It contains both Brett and bacteria so I think I will let it go for a year or so and add some Maine raspberries, blackberries or blueberries next year depending on what's ready to harvest

This is my first sour batch so I am excited to letting it ride for the long haul and see what I can make.

Love sours!


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[Double_D]

The dregs from a bottle of beer are a way to get some of the souring critters in there but I'd suggest adding some commercially propagated bacteria to your batch of sour. A healthy pitching rate is important for lots of things not just sacc. Vinnie from Russian River adds brett, lacto, and pedio to his sours and they are amazing. I've been doing the same to mine for a few years now. Haven't noticed much difference in the batches that I've used brett brux vs brett lambicus. As far as what I've read on the two different strains of brett, they're basically the same. Lacto and pedio both produce lactic acid, pediococcus is more tolerant of alcohol and hops so it does better when adding to secondary of various beer styles.

 

[Brizzo]

I was contemplating the wyeast roeselare, but I read somewhere that dregs can give u more a more complex profile then commercial blends


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[Sleepyemt]

How hoppy is it? That'll effect souring...


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[smokinghole]

I had a saison that I brewed with fresh hops about 3 weeks ago as part of a 10 gallon split batch. I turned 5 gallons into a pale with a massive hop stand for 90 minutes post boil.

The saison I bittered lightly with magnum and used fresh mt hood post boil. I tasted it today as I was racking into the secondary and it was a solid saison, as good as anything I have tried commercialy. Mine was an all grain batch that used 2 row, Vienna, wheat, rye and crystal

Since both my kegs are full I decided to add the dreggs of an alvinne cuvée Freddy that I picked up yesterday. It contains both Brett and bacteria so I think I will let it go for a year or so and add some Maine raspberries, blackberries or blueberries next year depending on what's ready to harvest

This is my first sour batch so I am excited to letting it ride for the long haul and see what I can make.

Love sours!


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You will unlikely need a full year. I brew a saison grist, I don't want to call it a saison for fear of upsetting the style nazis, and ferment it with "harvested" lambic yeast from years of drinking lambics/gueuze. It sours in a few weeks, seems finished fermenting in a few months, is ready to bottle about at about six months, and ready to drink around 9months to a year. Now I do this with fairly low OG near 1.040-1.050 so that can contribute to the quickness.

Also if you're going to toss in some pedio then hopping will have little to no effect on the souring ability.

 

[Brizzo]

Yeah it's not hoppy at all, ibus very, very low. I just used a small amount of magnum to get into the style range for a saison. The fresh picked mt hoods were used just cuz i had a 1/4 lb from my plant and I needed to use them in something. They seems to have just smoothed out the overall profile of the beer.

That's the reason I am calling it a rustic farmhouse saison, reading about the history of farmhouse ales they seem to use anything or everything with very little restriction as to grain bills etc.

On another note, if the dregs take hold, how long will it take before the pellicle forms



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[Double_D]

On another note, if the dregs take hold, how long will it take before the pellicle forms



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Usually once primary fermentation is finishing up.

Also, adding dregs from multiple sour beers will contribute complexity but because it's unlikely that the different breweries all use exactly the same blend. For what it's worth with the roeselare I've read mixed reviews about what it produces and I'm guessing that because of how some people mash their sours.

 

[Gus_13]

That's the reason I am calling it a rustic farmhouse saison, reading about the history of farmhouse ales they seem to use anything or everything with very little restriction as to grain bills etc.

On another note, if the dregs take hold, how long will it take before the pellicle forms


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I like your approach to the rustic farmhouse saison. I have a 4 grain saison that is similar.

As far as the pellicle, you may never see one. It's a reaction from the brett/lactic acid bacteria to combat oxygen. So that can depend on how much is in the head space. If one never shows up, don't worry about it. But if it does, take pics and let us see it!

 

[Brizzo]

I think the dregs took hold, everyday more of these guys are popping up


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[Brizzo]

View attachment 225262

I think the dregs took hold, everyday more of these guys are popping up

A few days there were only a few small bubbles that were in a ring on the surface. Now it seems that they are starting to fill in

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[Brizzo]

A few days there were only a few small bubbles that were in a ring on the surface. Now it seems that they are starting to fill in


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[Brizzo]

8 days later....


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[Brizzo]

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1433377964.685832.jpg

10 months later

 

[Brizzo]

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1433377994.830147.jpg

 

[Brizzo]

Here it is 10 months later- first time I have opened it- gravity down to 1.002. Smells great- Taste almost has a white wine character to it, slight tartness. Not overbearing or mouth puckering like I was hoping but is super drinkable. I am going to split the batch and do half with raspberries and half with something else, anyone have any thoughts on apricots? Or maybe I will do a 3 way split and leave one portion plain. I need to get a new sour going, I can see Belgian brewing is going to be very addictive

 

[burninator]

View attachment 226656

8 days later....


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:rockin: Nice!

 

[Brizzo]

So I bottled half the batch plain and aged the other half on apricots. Half of the apricots batch was bottled and the other half of that was used to start a solera blend.

I entered some bottles of the plain into the southern New England homebrewed competition in category 23- mixed fermentation and it took honorable mention. It was so tasty

 

[Brizzo]

I tried a bottle of the apricot and I think although the plain half was fantastic, the apricot bottle is amazing. Wish I had more of it and had entered it

 

[FlaglerBC]

Thanks for the updates, great to see the start to finish

 

[sweetcell]

For what it's worth with the roeselare I've read mixed reviews about what it produces and I'm guessing that because of how some people mash their sours.

nah, it's because the bugs in Roesalare are kinda weak. they are very hop sensitive and are just sluggish. i also suspect that the cell count of bugs in a pack of Roe is pretty low. Roe tends to do better in subsequent generations because the cell count is so much higher, after they're had a year to grow in the first batch.

I am going to split the batch and do half with raspberries and half with something else, anyone have any thoughts on apricots?

as you have since discovered, sour beer on apricots is amazing. one of my favorite combos, right up there with cherries and raspberries.

I need to get a new sour going,

that is correct.

I can see Belgian brewing is going to be very addictive

that is also correct

 

[m00ps]

ive found that any sour blend seems to get stronger with subsequent generations. Ive got one now that is souring things faster than I figured would be possible according to my researching around

 

[Brizzo]

Yeah I now have 30 gallons of sours going Just got some big country and want to do 6 more

 

[ophillium]

Since both my kegs are full I decided to add the dreggs of an alvinne cuvée Freddy that I picked up yesterday.

Question - did you build the dregs up into a proper starter, or just pitch directly?

 

[Brizzo]

I just pitched directly- I had a good pellicle formed within 2 weeks and according to my notes, I added the dregs from a bottle of alvinne cuvée Freddy on 09/14/14 and I bottled on 7/12/15. The brett and bugs in the dregs brought the final gravity down to 1.002.

The only negative comments I had on the score sheets were that it could have had a little bit more body- I attribute this to mashing to low- next time I would mash higher (158ish) and probably add some flour to the mash.

 

[xico]

Usually once primary fermentation is finishing up.

Also, adding dregs from multiple sour beers will contribute complexity but because it's unlikely that the different breweries all use exactly the same blend. For what it's worth with the roeselare I've read mixed reviews about what it produces and I'm guessing that because of how some people mash their sours.

I've only brewed with reselare once and i was pleased with the results. i think you are right about mashing for the sours. Adjuncts and unmodified starches will provide food sources for pedio and the efficient bretts late in fermentation. Their contributions are smoother lacto tastes and reconverted esters.

 

[ophillium]

I just pitched directly- I had a good pellicle formed within 2 weeks and according to my notes, I added the dregs from a bottle of alvinne cuvée Freddy on 09/14/14 and I bottled on 7/12/15. The brett and bugs in the dregs brought the final gravity down to 1.002.

The only negative comments I had on the score sheets were that it could have had a little bit more body- I attribute this to mashing to low- next time I would mash higher (158ish) and probably add some flour to the mash.

I actually pitched the dregs into my (starter (w/belgian saison yeast) to get the brett going as early as possible, ensuring it would be active by secondary. So far so good -- she's bubbling away happily right now.

I also mashed at 158 to give the brett something to work on over the months. I'm not sure about the impact this will have on the body, but I'm told it will add to the complexity of the beer in the long run.

 

[Brizzo]

I am going to rebrew my recipe and mash higher My recipe was 8lbs 2 row, 2 lbs Vienna, 1 lb wheat, .5lbs rye and .5lb crystal 20. I bittered with .5oz magnum at 60
And then added fresh picked wet hops at flameout. Next time I am going to up the rye to 1lb, and add a 1/2 lb of oats. And mash at 158ish.

 

[ophillium]

I am going to rebrew my recipe and mash higher My recipe was 8lbs 2 row, 2 lbs Vienna, 1 lb wheat, .5lbs rye and .5lb crystal 20. I bittered with .5oz magnum at 60
And then added fresh picked wet hops at flameout. Next time I am going to up the rye to 1lb, and add a 1/2 lb of oats. And mash at 158ish.

I'm def not the most experienced homebrewer, but I wonder about hopping at flame-out on a beer you're going to let age for so long (assuming you're going the brett-route) -- might as well save the aromatics for a vigorous dry-hopping, no?

My own pref also is for a simplified malt bill - 2row, wheat and vienna only for mine.

 

[Brizzo]

I definitely see your point with hopping at flameout as logic would say you could get some spoilage of the hops with long term aging, but I used fresh picked hops which I am basically only getting the preservative quality from instead of the dry hopping effect because it takes such a large quantity of hops to provide that aroma and flavor; I basically used them because I harvested that day and used a ton in a fresh hop pale ale and I had some other low alpha hops to get rid of- I didn't realize that I was going to sour this at the time, it started as a farmhouse style saison that took on a life of its own when I realized that it needed to be tart; regardless, this beer scored well in competition and is very enjoyable to drink.

 

[ophillium]

I definitely see your point with hopping at flameout as logic would say you could get some spoilage of the hops with long term aging, but I used fresh picked hops which I am basically only getting the preservative quality from

Good point - it sounds dumb, but I often forget the preservative effects of hopping, even though that was their original purpose.