Sour stout experiences

[loctones]

A couple of years ago I had a sour stout at a brew fest and I really liked it. The mixture of sour and roast was surprising and awesome. This was at a sour beer festival, and I had it at the end of the day. I have no doubt that my palate was wrecked by then. So, I don't actually know if the roast and chocolate character were as pronounced as I remember.

Last year, I brewed an oatmeal stout that was pitched with a packet of S-05 and 3rd generation Jolly Pumpkin dregs. It's only 9 months old at this point. The roast, chocolate and dark fruit tones come through great. It's a very complex and enjoyable aroma. The taste, however, is pretty simple. I get the same sour characteristics as I've gotten on previous pale beers with these dregs. Some bitter chocolate and ash come through in the finish, but that's about it.

What are your experiences with sour stouts or porters? Do the bugs always dominate the majority of the flavor profile, regardless of your grain bill?

 

[blizzard]

The sour stouts and porters I have had were primarily sour (tart) with very little roast. I had Almanac's sour porter recently and it was distinctly sour and then very chocolatey. It was interesting. I'm not sure if the sour always dominates, or if the brewers scale back the roastiness by design.

 

[loctones]

Interesting. Yeah, I'm not sure, either. I had Almanac's sour porter a month ago, too. I was on vacation and, honestly, I just didn't think about it much. I was exhausted and just enjoyed the beer, but I don't remember the details.

 

[LowNotes]

I had a beer I had never heard of before back in January, Zymatore: Cuvee Freddy, which was listed on the menu as "blend of sour ales and stout; matured for 1 year in oak zinfandel barrels", it was 8% ABV, and I loved it.

As far as the specific flavors, I remember it being very well balanced between that roasted malt flavors and the acid. In fact, it kind of blew my mind as I had never really thought of a sour stout before. One day I may attempt one, but I am a sour noob, so for now I am working on the basics. That said, I wonder if starting with a high ABV imperial stout and lower ABV sour blends could be mixed with more weight on the stout. Like 60% imperial stout and 40% sour, or maybe even higher. Basically have it start out heavier on the stout side, but as the bugs eat some of those stout sugars it would start to equalize into something more balanced between the two? I am purely speculating though...

Damn good beer, I would have to recommend to anyone who comes across it and likes sours.

 

[Weezy]

I've found that overly lactic stouts seems to conflict the roast. But it is absolutely up to the individual's preference.

I prefer just a touch of lacto in mine. Someone posted in another thread the idea of splitting a wort for two different processes...it sounded interesting. Pull off a half gallon of first runnings and sour it for a week while the rest of the wort was boiled, hopped, and fermented with sacc. After the week, boil the sour portion and add to the primary. My next sour will do this.

 

[blizzard]

I've found that overly lactic stouts seems to conflict the roast. But it is absolutely up to the individual's preference.



I prefer just a touch of lacto in mine. Someone posted in another thread the idea of splitting a wort for two different processes...it sounded interesting. Pull off a half gallon of first runnings and sour it for a week while the rest of the wort was boiled, hopped, and fermented with sacc. After the week, boil the sour portion and add to the primary. My next sour will do this.

That's a good point. I was thinking oude tart, which is supposed to be a stout base. It has lots of sour and not any roastiness. In the other direction is de dolle extra export stout. A great stout with a hint of sour. A fantastic beer.

 

[loctones]

I was hoping to have more of the chocolate flavor come through than I did. My base beer was an oatmeal stout, leaning more towards crystal and chocolate that roast. I used 2.5% roasted barley, 7% crystal and 3.5% each of chocolate and carafa special II.

As for Oude Tart, that was another I had on vacation. I didn't get a lot (any?) roast from that one, but, again, I just enjoying it rather than concentrating on the flavors. I also looked for Tart of Darnkess while in California, as that is one that is getting talked about a lot here, but I didn't find it.

 

[dantheman13]

Tart of Darkness from The Bruery is a great example of this style. It's got those complexities of sour and roasty without being astringent. It's been my limited experience that a strong sour culture will eat through a lot of the long chain sugars, not even leaving sweetness from caramel grains. I would expect that a stout wort soured would do the same, except maybe leave behind some roasty/ashy flavors.

I know a lot of these sour stouts that are done well are pasteurized and then blended like Weezy mentioned. If they aren't, the bugs over time eat right through whatever sugars they can with the beer/wort you blend them with.

Does anyone know if Tart of Darkness is pasteurized or what their process is?

 

[BzurkoBrews]

I had a sour stout of sorts from Jolly Pumpkin. I forget the name but it was a holiday special. It was very roasty for how sour it was. I wish I could remember more about it. I think it was bottled 2011 but I found it on a shelf this year.


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[Weezy]

Madrugada Obscura?

Great beer.

Yeah, blending is a great trick to really get to some complex, exciting brews, if you're willing to spend the time.

 

[kwadric]

I did a Berliner Weisse lactic fermentation on a Schwarzbier like grist (I swapped out some of the pilsner for wheat). It's not a stout, but it is a dark sour. It came out, well, interesting. A mix of chocolate and lactic sour.

 

[dantheman13]

Madrugada Obscura?

Great beer.

Yeah, blending is a great trick to really get to some complex, exciting brews, if you're willing to spend the time.

If memory serves, MO was pretty lightly tart. I remember it being a hit and miss beer for sour beer lovers. I liked it a lot personally. Tart of Darkness I think is the best representation I have had of the "style" though, and is more on the sour side. Trade for this if you are interested in this style and haven't tried it yet.

 

[Remmy]

I'll be souring a RIS soon. Well, have of the batch. I am using the other half to top-off my oak barrel periodically where I will have 5 gallons of another RIS I brewed. I plan to brew two 2.5-gallon batches and get one up to 100 IBU and the other (which I will sour) much lower.

 

[loctones]

It's been my limited experience that a strong sour culture will eat through a lot of the long chain sugars, not even leaving sweetness from caramel grains. I would expect that a stout wort soured would do the same, except maybe leave behind some roasty/ashy flavors.

This describes the flavor of my beer pretty well. There's a slight ashy finish, but not a lot of contribution from the dark malts, otherwise.

I wonder I'm just conditioned to expect lots of "stout" flavors that aren't going to keep up with the bugs. When the beer is ready for bottling, I might try killing the yeast and bacteria with campden tablets in a gallon or two, and then blending that with a non-wild stout.

 

[Weezy]

If memory serves, MO was pretty lightly tart. I remember it being a hit and miss beer for sour beer lovers. I liked it a lot personally. Tart of Darkness I think is the best representation I have had of the "style" though, and is more on the sour side. Trade for this if you are interested in this style and haven't tried it yet.

I'm going to have to try to track one down!


PS -
You guys suck.
I just picked up the ingredients for a dark sour over my lunch break....like I dont have enough stuff that I want to get brewed already!

 

[BzurkoBrews]

Madrugada Obscura?



Great beer.



Yeah, blending is a great trick to really get to some complex, exciting brews, if you're willing to spend the time.

It was Noel De Calabaza. It was very good and was pretty sour for JP.


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[dantheman13]

It was Noel De Calabaza. It was very good and was pretty sour for JP.


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NDC is a Belgian Strong Dark (http://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/9897/39267/). It's fairly dark, but I wouldn't call it a stout like Madrugada Obscura.

 

[BzurkoBrews]

I'm pretty sure that was the one. It may not have been a stout but it was very roasty and dry. Much much more so than tart of darkness. It had to have used a fair amount of roasted barley or carafa III.


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[BzurkoBrews]

I remember thinking it tasted just like an American stout I had on tap except sour while drinking it.


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[JoppaFarms]

It was Noel De Calabaza.

I'm drinking one of these for the first time right now. Holy AMAZING beer Batman. This has some very complex sour notes in it. On the front its tart lactic acid sour, but finishes with some brett funkiness and earthy tones. The dark malty backbone shines through and there is a nice spiciness to it also but I don't get a roast character in it. It's not a stout though, it's a Belgian Dark, Special Ale, or spiced ale or something. This one was bottled on 10-31-2012 so maybe it's gotten more complex in the last year and a half.