sorghum malt supplier?

[kontreren]

Subscribed. I have brewed a couple brews with the Syrup for my GF GF, and the second one seems like it will be good (a Belgian Tripel), but I would like to do something a little more complex.

I went on the same search as you about a month or two ago and ended up giving up for the time being and using the syrup and experimenting with Beers that already had GF adjuncts in it.

I know Sorghum makes a great base for GF beer, but is there another grain we can use instead? What about using a different type of corn that can convert on its own? Also, what about using some sort of rice instead to help the conversion?

Just some ideas I thought I would throw out there...

Hit the Sproutable Buckwheat link in my signature. There is a base GF grain that can be malted.

 

[kontreren]

Sorry to sour the mood but I thought I'd put it out there in case you didn't know!

I think you just need to make sure that the rootlets and sprouts are completely removed- I mean, the big guys are doing this aren't they? There's GOT to be a way to do this yourself!

I'll look into this more tonight and post if I find anything, but hey, you've found the grain and that seems like a step in the right direction. :rockin:

I'm starting to think that Anheiser and Grist Mill are from the Sorghum syrup removed from the stalks of that one type of Sorghum. The only Grist Mill I've tried (or care to) had a notable sorghum molasses taste. That is after I got past the first swallow. That first swallow of Grist Mill was unrecognizable as any beverage I've encountered and extremely unpleasant. So much so that GF GF wouldn't drink it. So I took one for the team and drank the 6 pack over time but every bottle had that same horrid taste on the first swallow followed by heavy sorghum molasses flavor. I think Anheiser is just useing less Sorghum per batch in their Redbridge.

 

[kontreren]

Sorry to sour the mood but I thought I'd put it out there in case you didn't know!

I think you just need to make sure that the rootlets and sprouts are completely removed- I mean, the big guys are doing this aren't they? There's GOT to be a way to do this yourself!

I'll look into this more tonight and post if I find anything, but hey, you've found the grain and that seems like a step in the right direction. :rockin:

Would you agree, based on this quote from the article that using sprouted sorghum as a base for a mash is acceptable? The grain will only be used as a source of enzymes for converting starches to sugars and hopefully be able to carry the corn and rice conversions with it, similar to though not as effectively as barley malt. We do not consume the sprout itself.

"The fresh shoots and rootless of germinated sorghum and their extracts must therefore never be consumed, either by people or by animals, except in very small quantities (e.g. when the germinated grain is used just as a source of enzymes). "

 

[Lcasanova]

Alright, enough reading already, I'm tired of it. Here's what I've found and compiled from various Journals, Case Studies and Publications:

From Pseudocereals and less common cereals: grain properties and utilization…

A potential nutritional danger with germinating sorghum is that it results in the formation of high amounts of dhurrin in the roots and shoots. Dhurrin is a cyanogenic glycoside, which on hydrolysis yields hydrogen cyanide. However, there is clear evidence that drying at temperatures of 30 degrees C and above, removal of the roots and shoots, or traditional fermentation processing reduce the cyanide content to completely safe levels.

Here’s the process from a paper titled Malting Characteristics of Sorghum Cultivars:

Clean grains (100 g, triplicate samples) were placed in perforated nylon bags and steeped for 20 hr in aerated, running tap water at 28-30°C inside a container (Morall et al 1986, Taylor and Dewar 1992). After steeping, the grains were immersed in 2% sodium hypochlorite solution for 10 min and then rinsed five times with excess water. The grains were germinated at 28°C, 95% rh, for five days in a germinator equipped with a humidifier. The germinated grains were dried in a forced-air oven at 50°C for 24 hr. The dried malt was cleaned and the roots and shoots were removed by hand using a corrugated, rubber surface.

From my readings it seems that soaking the grains in an alkaline solution for a few hours, then moving to fresh water, improves the quality of the malted grain and inhibits microbial growth. Good to know!

Also, degerming the malted grain reduces the cyanide levels present to acceptable levels for human consumption. And, according to the WHO (not the band :cross: ) fermentation reduces the cyanide and alfatoxin levels from the malted sorghum.


So there you have it! After all this reading, it seems that malting the sorghum and removing the sprouts and rootlets would make the malted grain safe to use.

Hope that helps, let me know what you think and what your results are if you give this a shot. BTW- I emailed a supplier in South Africa to see what quantities they sold their malted sorghum in and if they could ship to the U.S. so, we shall see. :fro:

 

[ElDuderino]

I have to admit I've heard about cyanide formation in the rootlet during malting and I haven't yet read some of the great links you guys have provided (I will as long as the baby keeps sleeping), but I just assumed that it can't be too involved, as malting sorghum and making sorghum beer (a thick cloudy version drunk young) has been undertaken in South African village households for years. This is actually something I want to try. Here's a link to a website detailing a recipe, although they call for malted sorghum and don't describe how they do it.
Sorghum Beer

 

[ElDuderino]

There are a lot of exerpts from brewing texts available on google books, if you just type in 'malting sorghum' and hit search books. The book 'Malts and Malting' on the second page of results has a very detailed description of both village and industrial malting techniques.

In response to concern expressed in a couple posts about toxins released during malting, the following was kind of interesting, if true:
"In Bantu beer brewing, the roots and shoots are generally 'milled in' with the 'berry'."
Malts and Malting by Dennis Edward Briggs

There are some great books listed; too bad they all seem to cost a couple hundred dollars...

 

[kontreren]

There are a lot of exerpts from brewing texts available on google books, if you just type in 'malting sorghum' and hit search books. The book 'Malts and Malting' on the second page of results has a very detailed description of both village and industrial malting techniques.

In response to concern expressed in a couple posts about toxins released during malting, the following was kind of interesting, if true:
"In Bantu beer brewing, the roots and shoots are generally 'milled in' with the 'berry'."
Malts and Malting by Dennis Edward Briggs

There are some great books listed; too bad they all seem to cost a couple hundred dollars...

I still refer to the following quote and ask opinions. In my opinion we aren't eating it, we are using it for the enzyme. What do you think?

"The fresh shoots and rootless of germinated sorghum and their extracts must therefore never be consumed, either by people or by animals, except in very small quantities (e.g. when the germinated grain is used just as a source of enzymes). "

 

[BBBF]

Sorghum isn't hard to get, but like someone previously pointed out, that's if you are buying it by the ton.

There's some places on the internet that you can order from. However, if you're not on the west coast, it isn't worth it. I've found some places with really cheap grain, but once shipping is factored in, it isn't worth it.

Grains, Groats, Berries and Seeds


As for the cyanide problem, it is there, but it's in the roots. Remove them and you'll be fine.

 

[kontreren]

Sorghum isn't hard to get, but like someone previously pointed out, that's if you are buying it by the ton.

There's some places on the internet that you can order from. However, if you're not on the west coast, it isn't worth it. I've found some places with really cheap grain, but once shipping is factored in, it isn't worth it.

Grains, Groats, Berries and Seeds

As for the cyanide problem, it is there, but it's in the roots. Remove them and you'll be fine.

Thankx for the link, be sure to hit those two links in my signature and check those out as well. Those prices are no worse than other place I order and have shipped. Shipping does increase the costs dramatically. Clearly I need to start farming.

 

[Lcasanova]

I still refer to the following quote and ask opinions. In my opinion we aren't eating it, we are using it for the enzyme. What do you think?

"The fresh shoots and rootless of germinated sorghum and their extracts must therefore never be consumed, either by people or by animals, except in very small quantities (e.g. when the germinated grain is used just as a source of enzymes). "

I will totally agree with this and based on all the stuff I read last night, the removal of the shoots and rootlets seem to solve the problem. FYI- apparently this cyanide problem is prevalent in a lot of other fruit and vegetables, but it is in such a miniscule amount and we are so used to it that it does not matter.

I feel much better about trying my hand at this and not worrying about producing something poisonous. Seems like BBBF is pretty confident in this and I'll listen to him as I've seen some good advice from him in the past.

 

[kontreren]

I will totally agree with this and based on all the stuff I read last night, the removal of the shoots and rootlets seem to solve the problem. FYI- apparently this cyanide problem is prevalent in a lot of other fruit and vegetables, but it is in such a miniscule amount and we are so used to it that it does not matter.

I feel much better about trying my hand at this and not worrying about producing something poisonous. Seems like BBBF is pretty confident in this and I'll listen to him as I've seen some good advice from him in the past.

I'm not overly interested in removing any roots from those tiny grains. I think, even with roots on, the levels will be acceptable given that I'm just going to mash it. All this is presuming these grains will even sprout. If raw hulled buckwheat will not sprout then raw hulled sorghum grain might not either, in which case it will just be a toasted addition.

 

[kontreren]

Subscribed. I have brewed a couple brews with the Syrup for my GF GF, and the second one seems like it will be good (a Belgian Tripel), but I would like to do something a little more complex.

I went on the same search as you about a month or two ago and ended up giving up for the time being and using the syrup and experimenting with Beers that already had GF adjuncts in it.

I know Sorghum makes a great base for GF beer, but is there another grain we can use instead? What about using a different type of corn that can convert on its own? Also, what about using some sort of rice instead to help the conversion?

Just some ideas I thought I would throw out there...

I meant to reply to this earlier. If you get dry corn and malt it yourself it would make a nice smooth drink. Most of us use the flaked maise instead (and thus inlies the problem of converting those corn starches to sugars). Same deal with rice I believe. Both those grains (malted corn excluded) need to have their starches converted by another grain with enough enzyme to do all the work. Thus barley malt which can convert its own starchs, corn, and rice into fermentable sugars. But barley malt is not GF so your GF GF can't drink those. GF malt extract will not convert corn or rice so we need a GF grain that can assist with the work. I've tried the amylase enzyme on its on with no success in converting corn but I think that with a buckwheat malted grain (or sorghum grain) and some amylase enzyme to boost it I might be able to concoct a variety of beers that don't taste like molasses. Just a thought.

 

[DKershner]

I meant to reply to this earlier. If you get dry corn and malt it yourself it would make a nice smooth drink. Most of us use the flaked maise instead (and thus inlies the problem of converting those corn starches to sugars). Same deal with rice I believe. Both those grains (malted corn excluded) need to have their starches converted by another grain with enough enzyme to do all the work. Thus barley malt which can convert its own starchs, corn, and rice into fermentable sugars. But barley malt is not GF so your GF GF can't drink those. GF malt extract will not convert corn or rice so we need a GF grain that can assist with the work. I've tried the amylase enzyme on its on with no success in converting corn but I think that with a buckwheat malted grain (or sorghum grain) and some amylase enzyme to boost it I might be able to concoct a variety of beers that don't taste like molasses. Just a thought.

Good stuff, keep fighting the good fight guys. I'll see if I can figure out what path Deschutes took, as their GF beer actually tastes a hell of a lot like a normal ESB.

 

[ElDuderino]

If you get dry corn and malt it yourself it would make a nice smooth drink. Most of us use the flaked maise instead (and thus inlies the problem of converting those corn starches to sugars). Same deal with rice I believe. Both those grains (malted corn excluded) need to have their starches converted by another grain with enough enzyme to do all the work. Thus barley malt which can convert its own starchs, corn, and rice into fermentable sugars. But barley malt is not GF so your GF GF can't drink those. GF malt extract will not convert corn or rice so we need a GF grain that can assist with the work. I've tried the amylase enzyme on its on with no success in converting corn but I think that with a buckwheat malted grain (or sorghum grain) and some amylase enzyme to boost it I might be able to concoct a variety of beers that don't taste like molasses. Just a thought.

I found this in Lost Crops of Africa: Grains By National Research Council (U.S.) Board on Science and Technology for International Development
Of all the world's ceral grains, finger millet is second only to barley in its ability to hydrolyze starches ("malting power").

There is some stuff written on probrewer.com about converting sorghum, and it sounds like bigger brewers use enzymes like sorgainase and they seem to favor using raw sorghum.
Sorghum ale? - ProBrewer Interactive
I know from what I've read that sorghum is used in africa in the production of normal clear beers, but I don't yet know how they do it. When making the traditional opaque beer, they mash with another grain.
Sorghum Beer
In this recipe, they use unmalted millet, but may be malted millet was also used, which could have enough diastatic power to convert both...

 

[Lcasanova]

Disclaimer- I've had a few Apfelweins!!!

Ok, you know how it gets when you think you may have found something you've been looking for and you ask a question and have to wait 24+ hours for the answer? That's exactly what is going on right now.

I think I may have found a source for sorghum malt. Granted it is from Australia and they may not ship to the U.S.- that is what my question was about!- you can order it from them and even have it milled.

IF I get a positive response, I will give you the link!

Consider this a teaser of some sort. Til I find out, looks like we all have to wait :cross:

EDIT: It's 3:07 PM on a Friday afternoon there, might have to wait til Sunday/Monday to find out

 

[BBBF]

The shipping would be insane.

 

[Lcasanova]

Probably, I wasn't really thinking about that at the time

 

[Christopherx]

Hi, I'm new here and I've been lurking reading up on all the great information. While I was looking for prices on a 50lb bag of malted barley; I found a link off my LHBS's website for whole grain sorghum. I came across this thread while trying to figure out what the heck sorghum is. I'm not sure what the shipping costs are, but its $15 for a 30lb bucket (free pail).

I don't know if this is what you're looking for, but I thought I would pass it along.

http://www.twinvalleymills.com/

 

[Lcasanova]

Hi, I'm new here and I've been lurking reading up on all the great information. While I was looking for prices on a 50lb bag of malted barley; I found a link off my LHBS's website for whole grain sorghum. I came across this thread while trying to figure out what the heck sorghum is. I'm not sure what the shipping costs are, but its $15 for a 30lb bucket (free pail).

I don't know if this is what you're looking for, but I thought I would pass it along.

http://www.twinvalleymills.com/

Looks like its sorghum flour, I don't think that's much use...unless I wasn't really looking at the website

 

[Christopherx]

They list whole grain on their order form as one of the options. I doubt its malted though.

 

[Lcasanova]

You're right, I just emailed them to confirm that it is in fact the whole grain. It looks like they use the tan variety and Im not sure if that can be substituted for the white in malting...dunno but I guess I'll find out.

 

[HillbillyDeluxe]

I can get malted souhrgum

 

[Lcasanova]

Spill the beans! From where?

 

[Lcasanova]

They use the tan variety to produce white grains and they DO in fact sell whole grains. For 30# at only $15 plus shipping!! I just placed an order :rockin:

Looks like I'll be malting some and roasting the rest.

 

[BBBF]

They use the tan variety to produce white grains and they DO in fact sell whole grains. For 30# at only $15 plus shipping!! I just placed an order :rockin:

Looks like I'll be malting some and roasting the rest.

How much did you buy and what was your total cost?

 

[ElDuderino]

Hi, I'm new here and I've been lurking reading up on all the great information. While I was looking for prices on a 50lb bag of malted barley; I found a link off my LHBS's website for whole grain sorghum. I came across this thread while trying to figure out what the heck sorghum is. I'm not sure what the shipping costs are, but its $15 for a 30lb bucket (free pail).

I don't know if this is what you're looking for, but I thought I would pass it along.

http://www.twinvalleymills.com/

This is the best deal I've seen! It beats the price of Bob's Red mill, $2-$3 per pound...

I sent an email to a guy in South Africa hoping that I could get some of the seed used to make beer there so I could grow my own. He has something to doing with a brewing program dedicated to sorghum beer at a local college. I was under the impression that red sorghum was traditionally used (and had to be...) He sent me this reply:
You can make Sorghum Malt from any Sorghum grain as long as it can sprout (germinate). The parameters for malting Sorghum are a bit different from Barley, re higher steeping and germination temperatures. To send seed from Africa will be too much trouble. The Sorghum grain used for animal feed will do fine.

Anyway, it was encouraging, especially now that someone's found a cheap source of sorghum!

 

[Lcasanova]

How much did you buy and what was your total cost?

I bought 30lbs worth for $15...as of now I don't know what my total costs are. They don't accept credit card right now so I will be getting an invoice with my package. It looks like they are out of Nebraska and according to UPS, my package will probably cost about $20 to ship...so overall about $35 for 30 lbs sorghum grain.

Better than $2.50/lb + shipping for the Shiloh Farms grain I've seen

 

[Lcasanova]

Anyway, it was encouraging, especially now that someone's found a cheap source of sorghum!

I'm still waiting on the guy above who said he could get malted sorghum

 

[Lcasanova]

Just got my package today...I ordered it last friday and it was shipped on the 29th, they must not process orders everyday. Anyways, here are some pics, then I'll get to the cost

It came in a bucket

These things are a lot smaller than I thought they would be

Here's a close-up

So- I got a free bucket out of this and a ton of sorghum, well 30 lbs.

Drum roll please.






Grains $15
Shipping $17.36

Total $32.36

That's $1.08/lb!! Awesome :rockin:

 

[HillbillyDeluxe]

I get mine local We actually have a sorhgum festival here. Can only get it this time of year, i'm tryin to hook you up a sorce.