Something unexpected and a couple questions

[archthered]

I've been having trouble brewing lately, kept getting infections, and finally figured out why. Apparently my temperature sensor doesn't work anymore, it reads about 15F higher than the temp actually is. As a result this summer I kept having beers that would ferment a little then go dormant and eventually get an infection (I kept giving them longer at a higher temp but still not high enough and not enough yeast would wake up to ferment etc, at the time I was fermenting around 65 to start but it was really about 50)

I didn't figure this out until today as I checked my most recent beer and the first one I've done since the weather changed and now I need the heater. This means that my temp set at 67 but it was really more like 82. I've put in new sensor in and had it slowly drop to the actual target temp. This leaves me with a couple of questions and a tip.

Tip: Periodically verify your temperature sensor.

Questions:
1: How often should I expect to have to change my sensor and how can I get it to last as long as possible? I never even thought about this being a problem and hadn't heard of anyone else having this issue.

2: Is there any chance by beer will be OK? I know the short answer is only time will tell and that if I let it age it should help take some of the harsh, off flavors and fusel alcohols created by the high fermentation temperature. But this was supposed to be a Winter Warmer for Christmas, we're having family over and I wanted something a bit different and special for everyone. Is there any chance it will be ready for Christmas? Or should I just stick it in the basement until it is drinkable, if ever, and try to put together something else for Christmas? I think I have enough stuff on hand to make something and I think if I made it soon it could be ready in time.

In case anyone thinks it's needed to answer the questions my sensor was a Thermostar 12" stainless and I was using Wyeast 1318 London Ale III for the beer

Anyway thanks for your thoughts and comments and check your temperature sensor!

 

[jalc6927]

Are you sure these were temp related? Not sure temps will cause infections?

How do you sanitize?

 

[myndflyte]

I just don't see how being off with your temps could cause an infection. I think there is something else that you're missing that could be the cause of infection.

 

[archthered]

I appreciate your concern for trying to find other causes for my infections. I've posted about this problem in the past. I threw out all of my plastic parts and still had an infection, I even threw out my Starsan, which I have been told multiple times can't go bad, but I replaced it because there was literally nothing else that could have been the source of the infection that I could think of, here is a link to that thread if you want, it includes details on sanitation etc: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/index.php?threads/chronic-infection-problem.633539/

A small temp difference probably wouldn't be a big deal, however this temp difference is massive, 15F, which is bigger than the range suggested for many yeast strains meaning that if I set it for the highest temp it could handle it would still be lower than recommended, I tend to ferment on the cooler end. This can cause infection because the wort is way too cold for my yeast to really get established and they would go dormant fairly quickly. While the cooler temps would not be ideal for bacteria without competition from yeast and given enough time they would eventually get to a point at which they would take over and out compete any surviving yeast. Look at it this way if I set my temp at 67F, a normal ale temp, and used an appropriate starter for an ale then in reality the temp was 52, a lager temp, but my starter would have been much too small for a lager so even if the ale yeast didn't go dormant immediately it probably wouldn't go fast enough to keep out an infection.

I guess if you are surprised or doubt that temp can cause an infection ask yourself this: Would you have been surprised or doubted if I had said I got an infection while making a lager using ale yeast and under pitched the yeast? Because that is basically what I was doing.

Not only that but in hindsight this matches my experiences with these batches, they all had a small drop in gravity, they had fairly compact yeast cakes with little yeast floating around, rousing the yeast did little, and giving it more time only resulted in the beer eventually getting an infection, while undoubtedly my frequent checking on it didn't help but that was a response to the issue and wouldn't have happened or been much of an issue if it had been fermenting appropriately.

I appreciate your help trying to figure out the problem but please trust me on this, the sensor is the problem. The unlikely nature of this is exactly why I wanted to post something on this, and of course get answers to my questions.

 

[archthered]

Bump

 

[applescrap]

Haha, sounds like some quality investigation work. I think the 82 degree pitch will be ok. I accidentally pitched at 85 a few weeks ago, but the temp must have dropped quick and a normal ferment ensued. If it fermented then you will have to decide taste.

 

[seatazzz]

My two cents, I don't think you had an infection. Just overstressed yeast. What was the flavor like? Stressed yeast will throw off a lot of phenols (the infamous "bandaid" smell & flavor). Temperature control is VERY important, yes, but so is pitching plenty of healthy yeast for the style you are brewing. Yeast are hardy little buggers; swings in temperature that you described will maybe make them create some banana/clove-y esters, or fusel alcohol.

 

[chris000]

In general, you are correct that there are always some other microorganisms in there and if the yeast doesn't take off, they have a chance to get established; i.e. especially on the warmer end of the spectrum.
However, they way you describe what you do, it doesn't sound like you go with a hail-marry yeast takes it all approach.
Therefore, I also think that low pitch rate (for the actual temperature!) might be a more systematic cause than repeated "random" infection.
Think of it that way, you used an Ale yeast at Lager temperature with a Ale pitch rate. You shouldn't expect great result since yeast strain, pitch, and temperature were never meant to be combined.

 

[archthered]

Haha, sounds like some quality investigation work. I think the 82 degree pitch will be ok. I accidentally pitched at 85 a few weeks ago, but the temp must have dropped quick and a normal ferment ensued. If it fermented then you will have to decide taste.

Unfortunately I was in the 80's during fermentation for some time, not all of the fermentation period but a good bit of it so I'm definitely getting some off flavors. I'll be transferring it to a secondary later today and I'll taste it then.

My two cents, I don't think you had an infection. Just overstressed yeast. What was the flavor like? Stressed yeast will throw off a lot of phenols (the infamous "bandaid" smell & flavor). Temperature control is VERY important, yes, but so is pitching plenty of healthy yeast for the style you are brewing. Yeast are hardy little buggers; swings in temperature that you described will maybe make them create some banana/clove-y esters, or fusel alcohol.

A couple of my previous batches definitely had infections. They were sour, but not like a sour should be but I guess I could have let it sit for months and seen if it got better., some developed film on the top, I can't remember exactly what each bad batch tasted like but none of it was even remotely drinkable and most made me physically gag before I could really identify much.

In general, you are correct that there are always some other microorganisms in there and if the yeast doesn't take off, they have a chance to get established; i.e. especially on the warmer end of the spectrum.
However, they way you describe what you do, it doesn't sound like you go with a hail-marry yeast takes it all approach.
Therefore, I also think that low pitch rate (for the actual temperature!) might be a more systematic cause than repeated "random" infection.
Think of it that way, you used an Ale yeast at Lager temperature with a Ale pitch rate. You shouldn't expect great result since yeast strain, pitch, and temperature were never meant to be combined.

I am not sure I understand your point. I know that the off temp combined with my pitch rate was my problem. My point was that it took for ever to figure it out, though now I have figured it out, and others may benefit from hearing this in case they have issues in the future.

I'm sorry, I must not have been as clear about what I wanted comments on as I could have been since most, but not all, comments have been off topic.

Infection or not is not really my concern, I had a strange problem, I figured it out and wanted to mention it so others can think about it if they have similar issues. But what I'm asking about and want comments about is how often should I expect to have to change my temp sensor and how can I get it to last as long as possible, since this is a virtually undiscussed issue I had? Additionally I was curious if anyone had experience with this kind of high temp fermentation and if I had a prayer of saving my current batch?

 

[chris000]

if you talk about salvaging a really bad batch that didn't have an infection, but fermentation just went completely wrong, you could do two things
a) blend it with good beer 1:10 or less
b) blend it with fresh wort and ferment it again (in hopes the yeast cleans it all up and/or a strong ale kind of covers up some of it)
neither a nor b will give you great results. We are not talking hundreds of hectoliters that you just cannot put down the drain; my 5 gal. would go exactly there if I don't like it.

Regarding the sensor, I would not regularly exchange it. I will not get into industrial PM considerations since a homebrewer uses equipment very infrequently and breakage is typically due to moving things around. Long story short, having any discussion of quarterly vs annual and the like is a mute point.
If you are concerned, use a simple thermometer and check when you feel it is critical. If they are within 2ºC I wouldn't do anything, if not I would run your controller through at least a 2 point calibration.

Regarding the infection, what you describe in the last post sounds a bit more nasty. But if it is just a slight sour note, clean your taps first (that's what I've gonna do this weekend...)

 

[archthered]

UPDATE: I racked and tasted the beer that had the 80+ fermentation temp for part of the fermentation. I was lucky, there were no hints of fusel alcohols, the primary aroma is juniper and pine, which was the point since it was brewed with those ingredients. There was a bubblegum under tone to the smell and taste but it was not strong, there was also a hint of banana if I thought really hard about it while I was smelling or tasting it but it was so light I'm not 100% sure it wasn't as much in my head as anything. The good news is that since I only got some off esters, nor fusel alcohol, and since no one is coming for 4 weeks most of those off flavors should be gone by then. It looks like this will work out ok and I don't have to ttry to put a new Christmas beer together in a hurry.

To chis000s' point

Regarding the sensor, I would not regularly exchange it. I will not get into industrial PM considerations since a homebrewer uses equipment very infrequently and breakage is typically due to moving things around. Long story short, having any discussion of quarterly vs annual and the like is a mute point.
If you are concerned, use a simple thermometer and check when you feel it is critical. If they are within 2ºC I wouldn't do anything, if not I would run your controller through at least a 2 point calibration.

I won't worry about my sensor too much, I just caught a bad break, but I would advise anyone that consistently has off flavors or unexplained infections to at least think about it and check it once in a while!

Thanks

P.S. This is not necessarily the end so if anyone has more to add feel free

 

[applescrap]

Sounds good.

 

[dmtaylor]

Temperature has nothing to do with your infections. You should replace all plastic and rubber equipment in your brewhouse, including gaskets, O-rings, and hoses. These soft materials can harbor bacteria forever, unsanitizable.

 

[archthered]

Temperature has nothing to do with your infections. You should replace all plastic and rubber equipment in your brewhouse, including gaskets, O-rings, and hoses. These soft materials can harbor bacteria forever, unsanitizable.

I did replace all my plastics, and still had an infection

 

[dmtaylor]

Hoses? Gaskets? Seals? Valve parts?

 

[archthered]

Hoses were plastic and replaced, the only gaskets/seals are on the valves for my mash tun, hot liquor tank, and boil kettle. The first two shouldn't be able to cause an infection because the wort is boiled afterwards and the one on the kettle is sterilized by the boil, but all were cleaned and sterilized.

I really don't understand everyone's hang up on locating the source of the infection, which is not what this thread is about this one is https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/index.php?threads/chronic-infection-problem.633539/
, especially since no one has pointed out any fundamental problem with my explanation of the issue, the temperature sensor.

I understand it is not a common problem, that is my point, but as far as I can see there is nothing fundamentally wrong with this premise, especially since this issue would result in increased checking on the wort and sample taking, increasing odds of getting an infection.