Someone please tell me what I missed about Force Carbonation

[mscroggi]

I am on my 5th batch of all-grain. I am starting to feel somewhat comfortable with the process.

I have been force-carbing my beers in the kegs. And it seems to work.. In fact, I built one of those quick carb mechanisms from a youtube video.. Its nifty..

BUT.. After force carb'ing the beer, Its not really very good.. I was reading that green beer needs time to age and will continue to change over multiple weeks and eventually be the intended beer flavor. This explains my disappointment when tasting the beers soon after carb'ing, which all seemed to have a common lingering harshness. Even just a week or two later I can tell it has definitely changed for the better.. (It is just SOO hard not to want to dive in drink the new concoction.. heheee)

I began wondering what I was doing wrong.. and research seems to indicate the beer just needs to age.

So my next question is, if it requires time to age anyway to become drinkable, what is the purpose of force carb'ing the beer?

Why force carb and then have to let it age? Why not go the simpler route and just let it carb in the keg and age at the same time?

Please help me understand what I am missing..

Any info is appreciated!

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

It can be harder to seat the keg lid for proper seal with natural carb method. It can be done tho'. Set-it and forget it just easier and more consistent.

 

[ccous]

I would just let the beer mature in the carboy before kegging. I keg and force carb once a beer is ready, which differs depending on the style, but I’m not kegging until then. Always tastes great once carbed.

 

[Queequeg]

It really depends on the style and your process. Some beers can be ready very quickly.

 

[GoeHaarden]

Why not just force carb by setting to serving pressure and leaving it for two weeks!? Ditch the "quick carb mechanism." What's the point when the beer needs a little time.

What kind of beer are we talking here? Several styles need a little time...

 

[schematix]

When I first started brewing I would force carb. It took about 10 days at serving pressure. That also gave it time to age and clear a bit too.

Problem was it was giving oxidation time to run its course. What tasted pretty good going into the keg flat was dull and lifeless a couple weeks later when it was time to tap.

There is a solution though and it's called spunding. It works fast, doesn't use any bottle CO2, and scrubs oxygen from the keg. Keep spunding on your radar as you progress in your brewing.

If done properly you can get ales grain to glass, fully carbonated, and with a couple days of cold conditioning in about a week. They are also much more flavor stable. Really all you need to do it is 30-psi pressure gauge hooked up to a gas disconnect. All you have to do is monitor the pressure and if it gets over target, burp the keg until it stabilizes. You could also get a pressure relieve valve do to that part for you. It's a game changer.

 

[WBB]

I force carb all mine and don’t have any issues. My process is to rack the finished beer to the keg, pump some co2 to set the lid seal and then purge and then ramp up the pressure to about 30lbs and put in the fridge. The co2 may drop a little from 30, so I just increase as necessary to keep it around 30 for about 48-72 hours. After that, purge again and set at serving temp. The carb level seems just about right every time. I also cold crash before force carbing, not sure if that has anything to do with it.

 

[probablynotnick]

Spunding is a great way to both limit oxygen exposure and carbonate. It get's you in the ballpark of CO2 levels and then a couple days on gas it will balance exactly where you want.

Not sure on the "harshness" you're talking about, but I think I've had the same thing happen before, even in different styles of beer.

 

[kevin58]

Why not just force carb by setting to serving pressure and leaving it for two weeks!? Ditch the "quick carb mechanism." What's the point when the beer needs a little time.

^^^^^ This! No shaking, no setting pressures up and down. And your beer will benefit the additional conditioning time. You always hear someone say that the last pour was the best. That's because it had time to condition.

 

[rhys333]

I find a beer is somewhat green when its first pulled off the yeast, no matter how its carbed. That said, my kegged beers mature a week or two faster with forced carbonation than do my bottled beers. Reason being, is that the kegged beers are maturing while they're carbing, whereas my bottles are being sent back to square one because of the refermentation process and they don't start maturing until after carbonation.

That said... whenever I hear the words lingering harshness in relation to all-grain beer, I wonder if there's another underlying problem. @mscroggi, are you modifying your brewing water to get the mash pH in the right range? If you're not, there's a good chance that you're pH is off (often too high), which can cause the release of harsh tannins and other undesirable off-flavors. Brewers that experience this usually point to a lingering harshness or bitterness.

 

[stodds]

are you modifying your brewing water to get the mash pH in the right range?

Sparge water is a more likely tannin culprit than mash water.

 

[Upthewazzu]

When I first starter kegging a while back, a buddy mentioned to me that 2 weeks in the keg seems to be the sweet spot. After roughly 5 years and 70'ish beers of all different types, by God, he's right.

 

[rhys333]

Sparge water is a more likely tannin culprit than mash water.

Not in my experience, but I treat sparge water too, and don't over-sparge. The first thing to rule out is that mash pH isn't above the acceptable range.

 

[mscroggi]

Why not just force carb by setting to serving pressure and leaving it for two weeks!? Ditch the "quick carb mechanism." What's the point when the beer needs a little time.

What kind of beer are we talking here? Several styles need a little time...

Yeah that is exactly what I am curious about.. If it needs to sit for a few weeks anyway.. why not just put it under pressure and let it sit..

I brewed two pale recipes, one wheat and I have an IPA in the fermenter now..

 

[mscroggi]

I find a beer is somewhat green when its first pulled off the yeast, no matter how its carbed. That said, my kegged beers mature a week or two faster with forced carbonation than do my bottled beers. Reason being, is that the kegged beers are maturing while they're carbing, whereas my bottles are being sent back to square one because of the refermentation process and they don't start maturing until after carbonation.

That said... whenever I hear the words lingering harshness in relation to all-grain beer, I wonder if there's another underlying problem. @mscroggi, are you modifying your brewing water to get the mash pH in the right range? If you're not, there's a good chance that you're pH is off (often too high), which can cause the release of harsh tannins and other undesirable off-flavors. Brewers that experience this usually point to a lingering harshness or bitterness.

Huh that's some good info.. I have not done anything to my water.. I would merely purchase 8.5 gal of filtered water for use.. Since I have experienced the same thing across several different kinds of beer, the common denominator could be the water..

I will research that.. thanks for the tip!

 

[mscroggi]

Thank you all for responding! You have given me something to think about!

Much appreciated.

 

[Upthewazzu]

Yeah that is exactly what I am curious about.. If it needs to sit for a few weeks anyway.. why not just put it under pressure and let it sit..

I brewed two pale recipes, one wheat and I have an IPA in the fermenter now..

I have found that putting it on 30psi tends to "seal" the keg. For whatever reason, if I just put it on serving pressure (8psi-12psi) I tend to develop minute leaks around the gasket. 30psi...no problems. After 24-48 hours just start backing it down to 10psi and let it sit the remaining 2 weeks or so.

 

[Numsquat]

My experience and information from others is that water modifications is the last thing to worry about in brewing. Not that it's the least important thing but takes more education and practice than most other parts of brewing.

First thing i would do is the longer carbonation/time in the kegs. Set your PSI to desired level and let go 2 weeks, test taste, go longer testing every 3-4 days until you hit the sweet spot. If the harshness continues regardless of the time, then start looking into water issues, especially the pH issues like rhys333 posted.

 

[GoeHaarden]

. If it needs to sit for a few weeks anyway.. why not just put it under pressure and let it sit..

I usually transfer under CO2 pressure into the keg and set it to serving temp. Its ready in about 2 weeks. I think the majority of keggers do it that way. Or alternatively, burst carb for 36 hours at 30psi, purge, set to serving temp and it'll usually be ready in about 5 days...

Just brew more so you're not trying to rush them

 

[mscroggi]

<offtopic>
@Upthewazzu love the corgi!
</offtopic>

 

[EnglishAndy]

I am on my 5th batch of all-grain. I am starting to feel somewhat comfortable with the process.

I have been force-carbing my beers in the kegs. And it seems to work.. In fact, I built one of those quick carb mechanisms from a youtube video.. Its nifty..

BUT.. After force carb'ing the beer, Its not really very good.. I was reading that green beer needs time to age and will continue to change over multiple weeks and eventually be the intended beer flavor. This explains my disappointment when tasting the beers soon after carb'ing, which all seemed to have a common lingering harshness. Even just a week or two later I can tell it has definitely changed for the better.. (It is just SOO hard not to want to dive in drink the new concoction.. heheee)

I began wondering what I was doing wrong.. and research seems to indicate the beer just needs to age.

So my next question is, if it requires time to age anyway to become drinkable, what is the purpose of force carb'ing the beer?

Why force carb and then have to let it age? Why not go the simpler route and just let it carb in the keg and age at the same time?

Please help me understand what I am missing..

Any info is appreciated!

You're not doing anything wrong. What you're tasting is carbonic acid from the dissolved CO2 that you force carbonated with. It fades away over time as you've noticed.

 

[Sparkncode]

With those quick carb setups i would be really worried about purging all air out of the lines, keg and pump although if done right a quick way to get the co2 into the beer.

My beer is normally left in the fermenter about two weeks then i do 30psi for 1 to 2 days then set to serving preassure and wait. By the time the carbonation settles in a week the beer is pretty good but some beers (porters and stouts) do noticably improve over a few more weeks.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

My experience and information from others is that water modifications is the last thing to worry about in brewing. Not that it's the least important thing but takes more education and practice than most other parts of brewing.

First thing i would do is the longer carbonation/time in the kegs. Set your PSI to desired level and let go 2 weeks, test taste, go longer testing every 3-4 days until you hit the sweet spot. If the harshness continues regardless of the time, then start looking into water issues, especially the pH issues like rhys333 posted.

I'm not sure I agree. It really depends on your commitment level. I brewed extract in the 90's, then got back into brewing about 18 months ago and did all grain from the beginning. I spent several months reading about all grain brewing and, specifically, what things are crucial to brewing a great beer (not just a drinkable beer). I quickly settled in on sanitation (duh), ferm temp control, yeast management (not under-pitching and providing sufficient O2) and water. My first all grain batch I incorporated all of those into a NEIPA and it came out glorious. I also spent countless hours researching NEIPA recipes and how to brew them and came up with my own "best of breed" recipe incorporating the elements I felt were the most common denominators.

In general, understanding the underlying chemistry is pretty heady stuff and I don't really go there. I use bru'n water and, again, spent a lot of time researching the water profile for the beers I brew. I bought the brewing salts and spent a lot of time with Bru'n water figuring out which salts produced the profile I wanted.

I do think the water is a huge factor and, if your a huge craft beer junky who wants to brew world class beers, it's a must-do. For me, I wasn't willing to go through a bunch of mediocre batches before I jumped in and did it right. I wanted WOW! beer from batch 1. Why go through all that work and expense and not brew the best beer you can. It's really not that hard if you do your homework.

 

[rhys333]

Huh that's some good info.. I have not done anything to my water.. I would merely purchase 8.5 gal of filtered water for use.. Since I have experienced the same thing across several different kinds of beer, the common denominator could be the water..

I will research that.. thanks for the tip!

Sounds like what I experienced before I started treating water. It can get involved, but there's an easy water chemistry primer in the Brew Science section that I recommend checking out: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/a-brewing-water-chemistry-primer.198460/

 

[kh54s10]

I'm not sure I agree. It really depends on your commitment level. I brewed extract in the 90's, then got back into brewing about 18 months ago and did all grain from the beginning. I spent several months reading about all grain brewing and, specifically, what things are crucial to brewing a great beer (not just a drinkable beer). I quickly settled in on sanitation (duh), ferm temp control, yeast management (not under-pitching and providing sufficient O2) and water. My first all grain batch I incorporated all of those into a NEIPA and it came out glorious. I also spent countless hours researching NEIPA recipes and how to brew them and came up with my own "best of breed" recipe incorporating the elements I felt were the most common denominators.

In general, understanding the underlying chemistry is pretty heady stuff and I don't really go there. I use bru'n water and, again, spent a lot of time researching the water profile for the beers I brew. I bought the brewing salts and spent a lot of time with Bru'n water figuring out which salts produced the profile I wanted.

I do think the water is a huge factor and, if your a huge craft beer junky who wants to brew world class beers, it's a must-do. For me, I wasn't willing to go through a bunch of mediocre batches before I jumped in and did it right. I wanted WOW! beer from batch 1. Why go through all that work and expense and not brew the best beer you can. It's really not that hard if you do your homework.

I will take this water thing in a slightly different direction. IT DEPENDS ON YOUR WATER. Where I used to live, apparently I had very forgiving water. I did over 90 batches there. I still don't own a pH meter and have only made some water treatments 2-3 times. I did not see much difference. I would say that I liked at least 50% of my homebrews more than most average priced commercial craft beers. (I don't buy the $25 bombers). Where I am now is temporary so I have not had the water analysed. When I get settled permanently I will be looking into water, pH etc. to see if I can increase that percentage.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

I will take this water thing in a slightly different direction. IT DEPENDS ON YOUR WATER. Where I used to live, apparently I had very forgiving water. I did over 90 batches there. I still don't own a pH meter and have only made some water treatments 2-3 times. I did not see much difference. I would say that I liked at least 50% of my homebrews more than most average priced commercial craft beers. (I don't buy the $25 bombers). Where I am now is temporary so I have not had the water analysed. When I get settled permanently I will be looking into water, pH etc. to see if I can increase that percentage.

That can be true if you brew only brews with similar water requirements. Water that's best for a 12% Imperial stout is vastly different from water that goes into a NEIPA. In one you're trying to keep your pH down, in the other you're trying to raise it. Heck, there are considerable differences between water for an NEIPA vs West coast IPA.

 

[Numsquat]

I wasn't implying water isn't important but like you said, there are are things a brewer needs to learn and be consistent with such as cleaning and sanitizing, temp control in fermentation, learning to pitch healthy and correct amounts of yeast, etc, before addressing water. Plus water knowledge is not needed for extract brewers which still are over half the homebrwers out there.

I will say water will take your homebrew to the next level (or two levels) if those other things we mentioned are dialed in.

BTW, where in IA are you at? I just recently moved from Storm Lake to Florida.

 

[kh54s10]

That can be true if you brew only brews with similar water requirements. Water that's best for a 12% Imperial stout is vastly different from water that goes into a NEIPA. In one you're trying to keep your pH down, in the other you're trying to raise it. Heck, there are considerable differences between water for an NEIPA vs West coast IPA.

I must have had really good middle of the road water because I have brewed most styles except an NEIPA. (So far I have never had a commercial one I liked). I have brewed extra pale ales to Russian Imperial Stouts, Belgians to English ales and have made beers that I rate higher than average priced commercial beers of the same style. Not always but more often than not. As I said I have only treated a couple. And again I have not tested the pH in any of my 101 batches. And it is not just me. I have a lot of people that raved over my beers (and ask for more). I agree that water is a place to look to if having problems and it might make my beers a bit better. But, I believe that if you are not having a problem where water might be the source, water chemistry is not of utmost importance.

 

[rhys333]

I must have had really good middle of the road water because I have brewed most styles except an NEIPA. (So far I have never had a commercial one I liked). I have brewed extra pale ales to Russian Imperial Stouts, Belgians to English ales and have made beers that I rate higher than average priced commercial beers of the same style. Not always but more often than not. As I said I have only treated a couple. And again I have not tested the pH in any of my 101 batches. And it is not just me. I have a lot of people that raved over my beers (and ask for more). I agree that water is a place to look to if having problems and it might make my beers a bit better. But, I believe that if you are not having a problem where water might be the source, water chemistry is not of utmost importance.

It must depend on your source, because my experience has been quite different. I have a river water source that is moderately high in alkalinity, with huge fluctuations in mineral content. My batches were a total crap-shoot until I began managing water chemistry. One out or three or four would be fine, and the rest turned out with a nasty lingering bitterness or flat, muddled flavors. Now they taste bright and clean, and I usually prefer them to commercial beer.

 

[kh54s10]

It must depend on your source, because my experience has been quite different. I have a river water source that is moderately high in alkalinity, with huge fluctuations in mineral content. My batches were a total crap-shoot until I began managing water chemistry. One out or three or four would be fine, and the rest turned out with a nasty lingering bitterness or flat, muddled flavors. Now they taste bright and clean, and I usually prefer them to commercial beer.

My town had consistently voted near the best water in the state. I never even treated for chlorine except to run through a carbon filter. My experience was that 6 - 8 out of 10 would be far above average. The rest would rate a 4 -5 out of 10. Only 2 dumpers out of 101 batches and both of those were extreme experiments.

 

[mscroggi]

When I first started brewing I would force carb. It took about 10 days at serving pressure. That also gave it time to age and clear a bit too.

Problem was it was giving oxidation time to run its course. What tasted pretty good going into the keg flat was dull and lifeless a couple weeks later when it was time to tap.

There is a solution though and it's called spunding. It works fast, doesn't use any bottle CO2, and scrubs oxygen from the keg. Keep spunding on your radar as you progress in your brewing.

If done properly you can get ales grain to glass, fully carbonated, and with a couple days of cold conditioning in about a week. They are also much more flavor stable. Really all you need to do it is 30-psi pressure gauge hooked up to a gas disconnect. All you have to do is monitor the pressure and if it gets over target, burp the keg until it stabilizes. You could also get a pressure relieve valve do to that part for you. It's a game changer.

Thanks for this!.. I am going to give this a go.. For $30 I can build a spunding valve. Looks to be a nifty and easy project. An excellent article here - http://www.homebrewfinds.com/2011/02/build-spunding-valve.html.

This is going to be a two-birds scenario, Tomorrow I am brewing the same wheat recipe I brewed before - but I will treat the water this time - and do the spunding valve.

If I could figure out what is causing the artifacts in my beer and resolve it, I will be a brewing fool going forward!.. hahaaa

 

[mscroggi]

You're not doing anything wrong. What you're tasting is carbonic acid from the dissolved CO2 that you force carbonated with. It fades away over time as you've noticed.

This could be the cause of the harsh edge and super long finish I was experiencing with my brews.. Tonight I cracked open a bomber of the pale that has been sitting for 3 weeks.. It was vastly improved from earlier.. - way more subtle.. I detected lots of butter flavors that I wasn't registering before..
Maybe its a combination of both - the water and the carbonic acid from the force carbonation. I dunno.. we will see.. Thank you @EnglishAndy