softening salt?

[tbulger]

I am brewing at my dads house for the first time and i was wondering about the water here. He has a few big filter looking things in the basement, and a few bags of water salt softner. He said he has a water report somehwere but im going to brew tomrow. Is this water salt softener he puts in the water good to brew with?

 

[Biermann]

No. A water softener basically replaces calcium ions (hardness) with sodium. You're beer may end up salty.

If you find the bypass valve on the softener, you can bypass the softener altogether, although you will want to run the lines for a few minutes before you fill your kettles. The other issue is chlorine. . .

I wouldn't brew with softened water if I could help it.

Although, typically, if the water tastes ok, it should be ok to brew with.

 

[Fingers]

He doesn't put the salt in the water, he puts it in the softener. The salt does an ion transfer thing to clean the resin pellets. Anyway, without going into a big long explanation of chemical reactions, the soft water in your Dad's house isn't good to drink so it won't be good to brew with. That being said, he may have a tap in the house that bypasses the softener so you could be alright there. There is also another type of softener that uses a different system of removing hard components that you can drink. You have to find out if he has one of those first.

 

[Blender]

Use the hose if nothing else, it should not be hooked up to the softener.

 

[tbulger]

Great, i will avoid it thanks for the help. There is a spring down the street i will go and get some water from untill i get the water report. HAvn't brewed in a month gotta do 10+ gallons this week, and build a sanyo kegerator. :rockin:

 

[Castle Meadow Brewery]

Anyway, without going into a big long explanation of chemical reactions, the soft water in your Dad's house isn't good to drink so it won't be good to brew with

I COMPLETELY DISAGREE!!!!

I have extremely bad water w/ 20 times the amount of iron in it. I have to run my water through an extensive filtration system including a softener at the end of it. My water report reads as good as a bottled water report. It removes everything.

 

[stout55]

I brew with the water that comes out of my water softener as well. I have never noticed any bad taste from it.

 

[bradsul]

I brew with the water that comes out of my water softener as well. I have never noticed any bad taste from it.

Ditto here, my entire apartment building is softened by a central system and I haven't had any problems.

 

[Jester369]

Yep-my softened water has made some really tasty brews.

That's not to say that at some point I'm not going to start paying more attention to the water chemistry, but not til I go AG.

 

[casebrew]

My hard city water makes good brews too. It's appropriate for English Brown ales, and lots of others too. I have been charcoal filtering lately, to good effect. It doesn't remove minerals though.

 

[mot]

i used my tap water that has a water softner on my first batch, after I used it i read a few places that you shouldnt, but mine turned out fine, it took a while for flavors to mellow out about 5 weeks but it turned out fine.

my othe rbatch i did i used spring water a different kind of beer though so I will not be able to taste and compare with the two different waters

 

[Fingers]

My answer was based on the fact that soft water tastes TERRIBLE to me, so it likely wouldn't make good beer. I'd also heard it wasn't good for you, but I didn't want to repeat stories about gall stones, etc without more than anecdotal evidence. Anyway, here's a quote from the CDC website:

First, soft water is more likely to dissolve certain metals from pipes than hard water. These metals include cadmium and lead, which are potentially toxic. Second, soft water may be a significant source of sodium for those who need to restrict their sodium intake for health reasons. Approximately 75 milligrams of sodium is added to each quart of water per 10 g.p.g. (grains per gallon) hardness. Finally, there is epidemiological evidence to suggest a lower incidence of heart disease in communities with hard water. The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) doesn't set a mandatory upper limit for sodium in water, but suggests an upper limit of 20 milligrams per liter (quart) to protect individuals on sodium-restricted diets.

If you use a water softener, two ways to avoid excess sodium in drinking water are: 1) use low sodium bottled water, and 2) install a separate faucet in the kitchen for unsoftened water.


You would be the best judge of whether there are any toxic metals present in your pipes to be leached into the water. In my case, the copper pipes aren't likely to cause too much of an effect. That leaves sodium. Once again that's a personal choice.

I will therefore bow to the experience of those who drink soft water and make beer with it. I absolutely would not, but it's clearly not as unthinkable as I presumed it to be. I beg your pardon.

 

[stout55]

No problemo.... I have Plasitc pipes so I guess I dont have that problem, When I brew AG out in the shop I use water from my hydrent so it is REAL hard. And it seems to be about the same to me, hell if ya make em strong enough ya wont be able to taste the water anyway..lol

 

[stout55]

And you are right softwater does taste bad, that is why I flavor mine with beer...

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Use the hose if nothing else, it should not be hooked up to the softener.

That's what I did with my last batch. I used a vinyl tube with garden hose fittings so I wouldn't get that rubbery garden hose taste.

For any light/delicately flavored beer, I plan on using RO water like I did previously for most brews.

 

[CBBaron]

Someone mentioned a different type of water softener so I read up on the literature for my Rainsoft system. This system uses a resin exchange system. It does not replace calcium ions with sodium but instead uses an electrically charged resin to attract the ions from the water and remove them. The salt is then used to clean the resin. The brine attracts the ions aways from the resin replenishing the system.
So I guess I can use my softened water for brewing as the amount of sodium in the water is very low. I will probably have to add some hardness back in using gypsum or other additives but that is better than buying bottled water.
I disagree that soft water tastes bad. My soft water tastes much better than the city water. I imagine is you have very hard water and used a system that replaced the calcium ions with sodium then the water may taste bad. But my experience with water softeners is that they usually improve the taste of the water.
Craig

 

[uuurang]

I could be wrong, but the water that runs through the water heater is the only water that is affected by the water softener. The cold tap water bypasses the softener, IIRC.
So, hot water is softened and cold water is "hard"

 

[CBBaron]

I could be wrong, but the water that runs through the water heater is the only water that is affected by the water softener. The cold tap water bypasses the softener, IIRC.
So, hot water is softened and cold water is "hard"

Depends on the system. In my house everything runs through the softener, including the hose water. In my case it was an add on to the house and there was no easy way to bypass the softener for the hose water. I imagine it might make sense to only soften the hot water as it is hot water uses that are most affected by hard water, while toilet water would not make much difference. However most installations I have seen soften all water used in the house.

Craig

 

[desmo]

Someone mentioned a different type of water softener so I read up on the literature for my Rainsoft system. This system uses a resin exchange system. It does not replace calcium ions with sodium but instead uses an electrically charged resin to attract the ions from the water and remove them. The salt is then used to clean the resin. The brine attracts the ions aways from the resin replenishing the system.
So I guess I can use my softened water for brewing as the amount of sodium in the water is very low. I will probably have to add some hardness back in using gypsum or other additives but that is better than buying bottled water.
I disagree that soft water tastes bad. My soft water tastes much better than the city water. I imagine is you have very hard water and used a system that replaced the calcium ions with sodium then the water may taste bad. But my experience with water softeners is that they usually improve the taste of the water.
Craig

Bingo!! That's how mine works.

 

[homebrewer_99]

Not all water softeners are what they call "whole house" softeners. Some are just wired (piped) into the bath and laundry facilities.

You need to ask first.

 

[AiredAle]

Typical ion exchange resin water softeners contain plastic resin beads that have ionic sites on the plastic polymer molecules that exchange calcium or magnesium for sodium (or potassium if you use KCl to recharge it). When hard water (containing Ca and/or Mg) is run throught a freshly recharged ion exchange bed, the Ca and Mg ions in the water are exchanged for sodium ions. The sodium ions are now in the softened water.

As more and more water runs though the ion exchange resin, the sodium ions are depleted, and the resin has to be recharged. This is done by flushing the bed with a concentrated salt solution, which removes the Ca and Mg and replaces them with sodium ions.

The softened water does have sodium ions in it, and the concentration depends on how hard the original water was. When moderately hard water is softened, it may contain low enough concentrations of sodium that it's okay to drink or brew with. Very hard water, when softened, may have too much sodium to taste good, or make good beer.

 

[KopyKat]

Someone mentioned a different type of water softener so I read up on the literature for my Rainsoft system. This system uses a resin exchange system. It does not replace calcium ions with sodium but instead uses an electrically charged resin to attract the ions from the water and remove them. The salt is then used to clean the resin. The brine attracts the ions aways from the resin replenishing the system.

If you believe that RainSoft does not replace calcium ions with sodium or potassium ions, I have a bridge in the Sahara that I would like to sell you. I owned a water treatment business for 16 years and have sold and installed many brands of water softeners including RainSoft.

Typical ion exchange resin water softeners contain plastic resin beads that have ionic sites on the plastic polymer molecules that exchange calcium or magnesium for sodium (or potassium if you use KCl to recharge it). When hard water (containing Ca and/or Mg) is run throught a freshly recharged ion exchange bed, the Ca and Mg ions in the water are exchanged for sodium ions. The sodium ions are now in the softened water.

As more and more water runs though the ion exchange resin, the sodium ions are depleted, and the resin has to be recharged. This is done by flushing the bed with a concentrated salt solution, which removes the Ca and Mg and replaces them with sodium ions.

The softened water does have sodium ions in it, and the concentration depends on how hard the original water was. When moderately hard water is softened, it may contain low enough concentrations of sodium that it's okay to drink or brew with. Very hard water, when softened, may have too much sodium to taste good, or make good beer.

The above is essentially right. Those that don't like the taste of softened water have not tasted all softened water. Some tastes quite good to most people. Some does not.
Some has a lot of added sodium, some does not.

I have stated many time that opinions on this board about water chemistry are local and mostly anecdotal. Anyone giving someone else advise about their water without knowning the person askings water chemistry and without knowing a bit about water chemistry should not be followed.

Statements I commonly hear that make me shutter are:

• If it taste good, it is good to brew with.
• You don't need to worry about pH when brewing extract.
• Softened water is bad for you.
• Always add chalk to your recipe for light beers.
• You never have to worry about pH with dark beers (all grain)
• Chloramines can be removed with a fauct mounted carbon filter.

My advice is always, if on a regulated water supply is to get a water report. They are always free. If you are on a private well, get a comprehensive water analysis for your own protection, period. Within that analysis you will find the factors relevent to brewing.

Once you have an analysis, there are many books and programs to let you know if your water is suitable and for which styles it is best suited.

BTW, my water has a pH of 10.1 on most days and over 2 PPM Chlorimine. I use a triple filter system with three carbon blocks hooked up to my soft water side run at .5 GPM to knock out all chloramines. I then use a few drops of Muratic Acid to knock the pH down.

Those of you that would suggest Five Stars 5.2 pH buffer - It will not buffer my pH in any amount below 6.5.

 

[CBBaron]

Thanks CopyCat and AiredAle for correcting my misconceptions. I read too much into the marketing on the RainSoft website. Only distillation and RO systems remove the minerals from the water. Water softeners replace the calcium and magnesium ions with sodium. For moderately hard water this reduces scale and improves the effectiveness of soap with only a small affect on the taste. With very hard water the amount of sodium carbonate in the water will probably cause off flavors.

As for brewing, I will probably continue to use water that has bypassed the softener and dilute it with RO. I have definitely noticed the reduced scale and improved washing using a softener but I don't think the sodium is going to improve the flavor of my beer.

Craig

 

[anojones]

We have a water softener that supplies our whole house, I had a valve put in just after the sediment filter and before the softener so I could use our "hard" water without the sediment from our well for brewing. The conventional wisdom is to not used softened water, but again, what really matters is what's in your water and that will vary. The post above mentions that having softened water in the toilet doesn't matter, tell that to SWMBO who was trying to the the hard water deposits off- it's the main reason we got a softener