So...You Want to Breed Your Own Hops.

[B-Hoppy]

I would appreciate any guidance on judging the tolerance. Should I plant some known varieties for comparison?

Not as polished an approach as PBJ, but when I see a spike (downy), I take it and use it like a feather duster on all the little ones. Out of about 20 seedlings this year only one has shown absolutely no response and maybe 3-4 have shown some minimal lesions on some of the leaves with no distorted growth at any of the growing points. All the others are gone.

 

[DarkCoder]

Geeeeeeee !! I harvest my seeded cones yesterday. Over 200 seeds so far. Very time consuming (... I must admit that the Imperial IPA was not helping me to go faster). It was a yellowy / oily / smelly fingers festival !

I still have around 40 cones to go through...

 

[PapaBearJay]

Geeeeeeee !! I harvest my seeded cones yesterday. Over 200 seeds so far. Very time consuming (... I must admit that the Imperial IPA was not helping me to go faster). It was a yellowy / oily / smelly fingers festival !

I still have around 40 cones to go through...

I will have a bunch of seeded cones, but they may primarily be open-pollinated thus far.

I've been working on harvest for the past few weeks, as I've been busy lately, of the un-pollinated varieties and I wanted to get them before they went for too long. (SWMBO said she wouldn't mind though, she's sick of the "hops".)

I have had two O.P. collections so far, both of which I am super-excited about, though I'm hoping that they passed some meaningful traits on. I have a third that I'm interested in, just because I hadn't been expecting there to be any seeds, but there were when I checked.

I will approach it this way though, the named variety pollinations will each be separated based on the crosses, and the three separate OPs I have already collected will be separated, but the ones that I have yet to harvest will not be harvested individually. They will be lumped together, for creation of the next population.


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[PapaBearJay]

Before anyone claims mistreatment, these were harvested over the past few days from the wild hops I found several months ago. I found that there were indeed many female plants around and will probably be making several rounds to get as many cones as possible.

Though I don't have any close-ups yet, I should be happy with the haul in seeds as well.


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[PapaBearJay]

Everywhere I turn, there were more females. I couldn't believe it, it was like a gold mine of hops.


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[DarkCoder]

View attachment 225661View attachment 225662

Everywhere I turn, there were more females. I couldn't believe it, it was like a gold mine of hops.


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What a waste of cones !! :cross:

Hope that they are full of seeds at least.

 

[PapaBearJay]

What a waste of cones !! :cross:



Hope that they are full of seeds at least.

Part of me wishes I had made it sooner, the other says, "Nah, get those seeds!"


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[PapaBearJay]

Another haul from the site. This time with some usable cones. More on aroma characteristics later. Still working on a way to mass sort for seed, which may just end up being a colander at this point..


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[PapaBearJay]

The first picture is part of what I sifted through this evening, though I guess there is still plenty of cleaning left to do.

The second picture is seed that dropped from the cones originally sitting on the door screen. Merely just collecting there from the dried cones.

The third picture is a pile of macerated cones the I sifted through 1/2" wire mesh tonight. I plan on having a secondary 1/4" inch wire mesh, and a tertiary screen if I can find a reasonably smaller size for a decent price. As much as I love sitting with a colander to do it, I'd like to have a much simpler system in place, especially for when I start having random O.P. seed drop from my own plants.

Depending on how quickly I can process this pile, I'll update with an estimated quantity.

Also, for the sake of ease I lumped EVERYTHING that I collected from this site together. I had originally planned for some separation, but that's not going to happen.

I'll begin an overwintering bed in the next couple of weeks, as I still have many seedlings in pots right now. I just finished the last harvest from my vegetable garden today, so I will be prepping for the winter.


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[VonRunkel]

I just want to say that I love the scientific approach you guys have used in this study. I really hope you guys get something good from all this work. Every time o try and germinate seeds I get nothing but an shattered hopes and dreams... But this thread has renewed my interest. Next time i will try doomed of the techniques you guys have used.

I do have a question though... What do you do with all the culls? It makes me sad to think that you are ripping them up and throwing them away, especially if they produce not horrible cones. Why not send them out into the wild? Let some other home brewer happen upon them

 

[PapaBearJay]

I just want to say that I love the scientific approach you guys have used in this study. I really hope you guys get something good from all this work. Every time o try and germinate seeds I get nothing but an shattered hopes and dreams... But this thread has renewed my interest. Next time i will try doomed of the techniques you guys have used.



I do have a question though... What do you do with all the culls? It makes me sad to think that you are ripping them up and throwing them away, especially if they produce not horrible cones. Why not send them out into the wild? Let some other home brewer happen upon them

VR,

I believe it was pointed out in another thread, but the issue arises when introducing a potentially invasive plant into an ecosystem that would not normally possess such individuals. I am all for biodiversity, as many if not all breeding programs look to introgress novel traits from wild relatives, but sometimes seeds or other plant parts carry pathogens or disease with them and then I would be introducing that into that environment from which it can then spread.

While I take great care in the things that I do, one is never positive of the repercussions but I try to reduce my impact.

Yes, I do believe it is a great shame to see many plants extinguished during the progression of breeding or through crop improvement, but remember that even in a natural system that several factors including selection are taking place. We as humans are just increasing the speed by which it occurs.

Other view points are welcome, I have many thoughts on the subject.


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[VonRunkel]

That is a really good point, and I never thought of it from that perspective. Thanks.

I will definately keep that in mind once my breeding program kicks off (if I can ever get these things to germinate).

 

[PapaBearJay]

That is a really good point, and I never thought of it from that perspective. Thanks.

I will definately keep that in mind once my breeding program kicks off (if I can ever get these things to germinate).

How many seeds are you starting with? Are you trying seeds that you collected from wild plants, or ones you purchased from online vendors?

What steps are you taking to germinate the seeds?

Also, what's your interest in plant breeding and what focus would you like to have?



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[VonRunkel]

I was basing my growing on all the other plants and flowers I have grown where germination is pretty high so I was only planting a few... and I wasn't doing a cold stratification... so essentially I was going about it all wrong. So that's fun.

I do plan on following the steps you guys have laid out and hopefuly getting some results. I have generally been using seeds I find in my hops so my diversity is pretty small. I would like to look into the vendors, but I think you (PBJ) warned about them not having verifiable stock...

I love watching things grow. I love the idea of having a unique house hop that I can brew with and share. I am not looking to breed the next big thing, just something that will be my own... ya know?

 

[PapaBearJay]

I was basing my growing on all the other plants and flowers I have grown where germination is pretty high so I was only planting a few... and I wasn't doing a cold stratification... so essentially I was going about it all wrong. So that's fun.

I do plan on following the steps you guys have laid out and hopefuly getting some results. I have generally been using seeds I find in my hops so my diversity is pretty small. I would like to look into the vendors, but I think you (PBJ) warned about them not having verifiable stock...

I love watching things grow. I love the idea of having a unique house hop that I can brew with and share. I am not looking to breed the next big thing, just something that will be my own... ya know?

I understand, and I think it's a worthwhile approach.

In terms of diversity, you're talking about an organism that is highly diverse. Nagmay began demonstrating it with his pedigree chart, but if you look at the wide array of cultivars used there is quite a bit. I believe there has been potential bottleneck events in breeding, which is why I have an interest in screening wild materials for use.

A main bottleneck event is the use of Northern Brewer, Brewer's Gold, Bullion, and landrace varieties as the main founders for currently used cultivars. You might end up tracing back several generations to find them, but few cultivars are derived directly from wild crosses (having just mentioned 2 of them).

I think their use hasn't been fully explored, and more work should be placed on collecting and identifying new materials.


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[VonRunkel]

I agree completely, and I have been searching for wildlings for a few years. I found one, but it didn't transplant all that well. Currently waiting on some new cuttings to root... But I think the grown from seed avenue is way cooler than 'I found this little guy struggling for life out on the reef' approach.

 

[DarkCoder]

But I think the grown from seed avenue is way cooler than 'I found this little guy struggling for life out on the reef' approach.

But you're saving time with this "little guy on the reef": he has already prove that he can survive the environnement and its diseases.

 

[VonRunkel]

Oh, I know. But I want them both... I will have my cake and eat it too.

 

[PapaBearJay]

But you're saving time with this "little guy on the reef": he has already prove that he can survive the environnement and its diseases.

DC, it is not proven that the little fella can survive disease. The disease must be present, and the environment must be conducive to its growth. If the disease is able to develop, then you have a susceptible host. If you know the disease is present, and the environment has been conducive to disease, but there is no development, then you can say that there is potential resistance.

Which again, is part of the reasoning behind introducing potentially diseased materials, not only in native ecosystems but also across borders.

The risk may seem small, but the impact can be quite large.



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[DarkCoder]

DC, it is not proven that the little fella can survive disease. The disease must be present, and the environment must be conducive to its growth. If the disease is able to develop, then you have a susceptible host. If you know the disease is present, and the environment has been conducive to disease, but there is no development, then you can say that there is potential resistance.

Which again, is part of the reasoning behind introducing potentially diseased materials, not only in native ecosystems but also across borders.

The risk may seem small, but the impact can be quite large.



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My post was saying "the environnement and its diseases".

I do agree that you cannot assume a resistance to a specific disease just because the plant did not show any signs of it. But, because there is no such thing as a diseases free environnement except maybe in labs, you can assume that wathever pathogens/pests are around, the wild plant is resistant or tolerant to it (plant is alive, right?). And wathever the whims of nature were, the plant has survived. That's what I meant.

When you start from seeds (even seeds from wild plants), you have to go through all that process by yourself and sometimes protect a plant that would'nt have made it in the wild.

Wild plants may not have the "brewing qualities" that you are looking for, but they certainly have the "surviving qualities" (of their environment/location) that you are looking for.

That's my opinion and I respect it !

 

[PapaBearJay]

My post was saying "the environnement and its diseases".

I do agree that you cannot assume a resistance to a specific disease just because the plant did not show any signs of it. But, because there is no such thing as a diseases free environnement except maybe in labs, you can assume that wathever pathogens/pests are around, the wild plant is resistant or tolerant to it (plant is alive, right?). And wathever the whims of nature were, the plant has survived. That's what I meant.

When you start from seeds (even seeds from wild plants), you have to go through all that process by yourself and sometimes protect a plant that would'nt have made it in the wild.

Wild plants may not have the "brewing qualities" that you are looking for, but they certainly have the "surviving qualities" (of their environment/location) that you are looking for.

That's my opinion and I respect it !

How did your plants do this year by the way? Anything to note?

 

[alane1]

I had one in particular that was very hardy and the cones were very good brewing quality, however, most of my other females weren't as vigorous and the cones had a funky onion/garlic aroma. I'll see next year if this aroma was due to the variety or just being first year seedlings. Any input would be welcome.

 

[DarkCoder]

How did your plants do this year by the way? Anything to note?

They did nicely... I would say that they all have a little something special. No bad surprise on the aroma/flavor side. Even the 2 wild females that I found here in Quebec are very interesting. I would definetly brew with any of them. I have a good base for breeding.

 

[PapaBearJay]

I had bad cone infections late in the season. I have collected, and still have to, a few cones. I collected no data regarding cone characteristics. There are both male and females with a range of vigor and susceptibility. I'm still trying to sort through the wild material I collected, and being preoccupied by other things doesn't help.

After I've finished collecting cones from my plants, I'll be cutting them down and taking further measurements inside where it's warm!

The sieve idea is great, except I keep finding that I need a successively smaller screen size to sort the chaff out.



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[PapaBearJay]

I identified several new female plants growing "wild". I didn't have much time to dig around and collect cones, etc. so I wasn't able to identify many plants in the surrounding area, but I plan on making a pit-stop in the spring for rhizomes if possible. I will also check out the surrounding area in the future for a larger population.

Just a quick note as well, this is a distinct find separate from the earlier one. This and the other location are approximately an hour apart.

 

[PapaBearJay]

I had one in particular that was very hardy and the cones were very good brewing quality, however, most of my other females weren't as vigorous and the cones had a funky onion/garlic aroma. I'll see next year if this aroma was due to the variety or just being first year seedlings. Any input would be welcome.

alane, this can be just a consequence of first year growth. I will say that all of you seemed to do well this year, and I think as long as you maintain a small population that will be to your benefit. Otherwise you may run into issues of space or other upkeep duties.


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[PapaBearJay]

Well, I'm finished sifting through a large majority of the seed. At least what I feel is acceptable for now. I'll give an estimate in the days to come.


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[PapaBearJay]

Well, I'm finished sifting through a large majority of the seed. At least what I feel is acceptable for now. I'll give an estimate in the days to come.


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Rough estimate...

Upper bound estimate based on roughly 7 ounces of seed collected. Several seed samples were weighed and the average was used to for an estimate. Approximately ~99,500 seeds.

A lower bound estimate was given by using an estimated number of seeds per ounce based on Amazon dealers offering different packages. This lead to an estimate of ~60,000 seeds.

What to do?


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[DarkCoder]

Rough estimate...

Upper bound estimate based on roughly 7 ounces of seed collected. Several seed samples were weighed and the average was used to for an estimate. Approximately ~99,500 seeds.

A lower bound estimate was given by using an estimated number of seeds per ounce based on Amazon dealers offering different packages. This lead to an estimate of ~60,000 seeds.

What to do?


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Just count them to be sure....

 

[PapaBearJay]

Just count them to be sure....

If you had a permit...

I'm also nearly finished threshing flowers from my directed crosses and O.P. All but two directed crosses set seed, and those that did had low numbers. Seed set ranged from 1- 20ish, but there is seed!


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