So I thought I did everything right...First Batch Help?

[SwedishPimple]

My wife and I ran into a great opportunity to make cider this fall with access to a variety of apple trees and press. We've been making juice, which is delicious but my attempt to make a batch of hard cider has hit a wall.

I've read a TON of different recipes and suggestions and have followed basic instructions of (1) sanitizing everything, (2) adding Campden tablets to the juice to kill wild yeast (5 crushed for a 5 gallon batch), (3) waiting 48 hours, then (4) adding 1 packet of Lallemand Nottingham ale yeast (suggested from home brew store that did not have cider yeast and good through 2/2013) mixed with 2 tsp of yeast nutrient and 1/2 cup of sugar in water.

It's been sitting overnight since adding the yeast and I do not appear to have fermentation. My carboy is sitting in a dark room ~60 degrees with airlock.

I'm truly a newbie, so any comments to help would be very appreciated! I also decided to try a gallon of juice without killing wild yeast to see if it would ferment - it's been 3 days and nothing so far....

I was planning on doing another 5 gallon batch because we are going to have a get-together later this fall when the cider is ready but I don't want to make the same mistake twice! Any help on how to get the first batch going and/or changes to the forthcoming second batch? I was thinking of using champagne yeast for the second batch as I've read that may be a good alternative for a dryer option - any thoughts?

Thanks in advance!

 

[CvilleKevin]

Notty is a slow starter. If no action 48 hrs after pitching, pitch another packet. Wild yeasts can take up to 7 days to start.

 

[SwedishPimple]

Notty is a slow starter. If no action 48 hrs after pitching, pitch another packet. Wild yeasts can take up to 7 days to start.

Okay I did not realize this - based on other posts and articles I was expecting this thing to get going right away. I intended at first to use champagne yeast since I do not have access to cider yeast in my area but the nice gentleman in the homebrew shop (who also brews for a local micro) suggested ale yeast for a sweeter taste and suggested the Notty because he was aware of others who had good experience making cider with it. I picked up two packets just in case...

Thanks very much!

 

[RobWalker]

You won't get a sweeter taste as such because your cider will ferment dry, but nottingham's known to give your cider a lot of fruitiness. As for the question - relax.

 

[commonsenseman]

Did you rehydrate the yeast prior to pitching? If not, it'll increase lag time quite a bit.

Swirling the fermenter will often reveal that fermentation is indeed taking place.

 

[SwedishPimple]

Did you rehydrate the yeast prior to pitching? If not, it'll increase lag time quite a bit.

Swirling the fermenter will often reveal that fermentation is indeed taking place.

I did not rehydrate the yeast - basically because I don't know how to properly do it and some of the recipes I read did not include this step, so I decided to pass it. Good to know that failing to rehydrate increases lag time - thanks!

 

[SwedishPimple]

You won't get a sweeter taste as such because your cider will ferment dry, but nottingham's known to give your cider a lot of fruitiness. As for the question - relax.

Actually, that is exactly what he said - "sweet" does not equal "fruity." My bad...thanks!

 

[CvilleKevin]

Notty is also easy to stop, either by cold crashing or bottle pasteurization, so easy to make sweet if you want it that way

 

[dinnerstick]

also the wild yeast can take a long time to show signs of fermentation. of course they are different everywhere but with me it can be 4 days

 

[RobWalker]

Actually, that is exactly what he said - "sweet" does not equal "fruity." My bad...thanks!

I'm not trying to be anal or anything by the way lol, just trying to point out that you'll get more fruitiness and not as much sweetness - so if you want it sweeter there's additional steps you'll need to take. you chose a good yeast.

 

[JeepDiver]

cider from 100% juice (as opposed to apfelwein with added sugar) is slow to ferment in my experience, and doesn't give anywhere near the krausen of beer, so you may not even notice it if your fermenter isn't 100% air tight so you can notice the bubbles.

 

[SwedishPimple]

also the wild yeast can take a long time to show signs of fermentation. of course they are different everywhere but with me it can be 4 days

Thanks - I thought it would be fun to try and see if I could get a gallon of juice to take with the wild yeast. Nothing yet, but it's been 5 days...

 

[SwedishPimple]

cider from 100% juice (as opposed to apfelwein with added sugar) is slow to ferment in my experience, and doesn't give anywhere near the krausen of beer, so you may not even notice it if your fermenter isn't 100% air tight so you can notice the bubbles.

I'm fermenting in a 5 gallon carboy with airlock so I'm not sure if that qualifies for "100% air tight," but it's reassuring to know that I don't need to freak out if fermentation has not begun right away.

I went ahead and pressed another batch of juice last night - I used pectic enzyme this time for clarity and I think I'm going to use a champagne yeast for a dryer taste and try to back sweeten after secondary. I've read that frozen juice concentrate works well - perhaps cherry for a more interesting taste?

Either way, thanks everyone for the feedback. As a first-timer it's hard to know when and if you're doing things right but I suppose that's all a part of the process. It helps to have some experienced feedback and pointers! Thanks!

 

[TimsfamousCider]

Couple of thoughts.

Your temperature may be too low. Yeast's are different but the yeast I use like 65-75 degrees. It will likely still ferment at 60 but it will slow it down. And probably really slow down the first ferment that didn't use a starter.

Making a yeast starter is simple. Put some sugar, juice (you can also use water), yeast nutrient if you have it and the yeast in a small bowl. Cover with plastic wrap an place somewhere warm. I put it in the oven with the OVEN OFF and the oven light on. Keeps it a consistent 85 or so degrees. Let it go for 4 hours or overnight I you can stand it. Then pitch it in with all your juice.

I would also suggest that you make sure your lid is on tight so it forces all the CO2 through the airlock. Which is your indicator if it is working.

I prefer champagne yeast and both will need to be backsweetened unless you like really dry cider.

To increase your alcohol content you will want to add more sugar to ferment. I often use brown sugar, dextrose or concentrate. I don't know if I would add concentrate at the first since you used real juice but you might concider it to back sweeten if you want to add back some apple flavor.

Hope something helps.

 

[SwedishPimple]

I'm not trying to be anal or anything by the way lol, just trying to point out that you'll get more fruitiness and not as much sweetness - so if you want it sweeter there's additional steps you'll need to take. you chose a good yeast.

Oh - no, I realize that! I just appreciate any kind of help whatsoever. My first try with some risk involved (plenty of thirsty guests awaiting a big harvest party my wife is planning).

Still no obvious signs of fermentation on the Natty - I pitched champagne yeast in a second five gallon batch yesterday and nothing there either. Just going to ride my patience...

Thanks again!

 

[SwedishPimple]

Couple of thoughts.

Your temperature may be too low. Yeast's are different but the yeast I use like 65-75 degrees. It will likely still ferment at 60 but it will slow it down. And probably really slow down the first ferment that didn't use a starter.

Making a yeast starter is simple. Put some sugar, juice (you can also use water), yeast nutrient if you have it and the yeast in a small bowl. Cover with plastic wrap an place somewhere warm. I put it in the oven with the OVEN OFF and the oven light on. Keeps it a consistent 85 or so degrees. Let it go for 4 hours or overnight I you can stand it. Then pitch it in with all your juice.

I would also suggest that you make sure your lid is on tight so it forces all the CO2 through the airlock. Which is your indicator if it is working.

I prefer champagne yeast and both will need to be backsweetened unless you like really dry cider.

To increase your alcohol content you will want to add more sugar to ferment. I often use brown sugar, dextrose or concentrate. I don't know if I would add concentrate at the first since you used real juice but you might concider it to back sweeten if you want to add back some apple flavor.

Hope something helps.

This is very helpful - many thanks. Would you recommend pitching a second packet of Nottingham ale yeast with the yeast starter method you recommended?

I pitched champagne yeast in the second batch last night after a 48 hour wait after adding campden tablets. No obvious signs of fermentation in either, but it has been 6 days with the Notty and about 18 hours with the champagne (Red Star). I was wondering if temperature could be an issue. Both carboys are plugged with a rubber stopper an airlock and are stored in an unused large cupboard to keep out light. I thought about storing them somewhere warmer...perhaps that's my next tactic.

Either way from what you said it should probably just be a slower fermentation process? I'm cool with that - but if there's something I can do to speed it up I'll do it.

I appreciate the help!

 

[krisabsinthe]

This is very helpful - many thanks. Would you recommend pitching a second packet of Nottingham ale yeast with the yeast starter method you recommended?

I pitched champagne yeast in the second batch last night after a 48 hour wait after adding campden tablets. No obvious signs of fermentation in either, but it has been 6 days with the Notty and about 18 hours with the champagne (Red Star). I was wondering if temperature could be an issue. Both carboys are plugged with a rubber stopper an airlock and are stored in an unused large cupboard to keep out light. I thought about storing them somewhere warmer...perhaps that's my next tactic.

Either way from what you said it should probably just be a slower fermentation process? I'm cool with that - but if there's something I can do to speed it up I'll do it.

I appreciate the help!

I ferment in my basement and in The cooler months (like now) I use a "under tank heater" to boost the temp until fermentation kicks off. You can get one of these low wattage heaters at any pet store in the reptile section. I wrap my carboy in a towel plug the heater in and usually by the next morning fermentation is good and I unplug the heater. I think my heater cost around $10

 

[SwedishPimple]

Thanks to everybody for their input in helping me out on my first time - I've racked my first batch (Nottingham ale yeast) and it's settling well. I was going to wait to back sweeten until my second batch is racked so I can do both at the same time. Any recommendations?

Some have stated that juice concentrate works well (apple or cherry) - but will I need to do anything to stop fermentation from beginning again?