So disappointed

[BigPerm]

As long as you haven't pitched yeast yet you can bring it back to a boil and boil some dme for 15-20 minutes to at least hit your target. Still might be off to the taste though. But if that reading is accurate it means your mash temp was way high so I'd double check the calibration.

I'd be more concerned about your thermometer calibration than your refractometer. 151 is a little high but not out of the ballpark for a DIPA. At any rate, assuming full conversion (1 hour in the 150s will do that), the mash temp wont give you a lower specific gravity post-fermentation (assuming you got full saccharification, if you mash too high, for example, you'll get a higher FG, but that isnt the issue here). To get that low of a gravity, your thermometer would have to be way off, ( > 10 degrees) in either direction. You won't get saccharification if the temp is higher than ~160F, and it will be very slow less that ~142F. I would guess that this, coupled with your higher volume may be the issue here. Did you do an iodine test to check for starch conversion? Was the wort cloudy?

You mentioned stirring as a factor. Are you batch sparging? in my experience, the most important step is to get the most liquid that you can out of the first runnings (particularly for high gravity beers), then add your sparge water and stir well to get the most out of the second runnings. I let my first sparge sit for at least 10 minutes to let some of the sugar leash out of the grain.

 

[kenpotf]

This has something to do with my equipment profile in Beersmith. I've been playing around with numbers tonight and I simply can't get this thing to work. I'm about to give up on it.

My original recipe called for 21.11 quarts of water and mash in at 162. The sparge water was 3.5 gallons and to do it in 4 steps for whatever reason.

I used 5.5 gallons for the strike water and then 3.5 for sparge. That's 9 gallons of water and BS is showing 8.72 total gallons needed. It's showing my boil volume should have been 6.52 gallons, but I'm pretty sure I was around 7.5 gallons. I'm trying to figure out why BS is saying that total water is almost 9 gallons, but my boil volume is supposed to be around 6.5? Where is the other 1.5 gallons going? Is the boil volume your preboil?

There are a few options that I can't wrap my head around:

Tun deadspace - how do you measure this? I have a braid setup with a 10 gallon cooler
Boil off - How is this calculated?
Cooling shrinkage - same as boil off....

I'm getting some random calculations when I try to change some of this stuff....

 

[kenpotf]

I'd be more concerned about your thermometer calibration than your refractometer. 151 is a little high but not out of the ballpark for a DIPA. At any rate, assuming full conversion (1 hour in the 150s will do that), the mash temp wont give you a lower specific gravity post-fermentation (assuming you got full saccharification, if you mash too high, for example, you'll get a higher FG, but that isnt the issue here). To get that low of a gravity, your thermometer would have to be way off, ( > 10 degrees) in either direction. You won't get saccharification if the temp is higher than ~160F, and it will be very slow less that ~142F. I would guess that this, coupled with your higher volume may be the issue here. Did you do an iodine test to check for starch conversion? Was the wort cloudy?

You mentioned stirring as a factor. Are you batch sparging? in my experience, the most important step is to get the most liquid that you can out of the first runnings (particularly for high gravity beers), then add your sparge water and stir well to get the most out of the second runnings. I let my first sparge sit for at least 10 minutes to let some of the sugar leash out of the grain.

I am batch sparging, and the wort was not cloudy at all. I have this thermometer:

http://www.thermoworks.com/products/low_cost/rt600b.html

I'm not sure I can calibrate it, but if I can, how do I do it?

 

[cjgenever]

Dead space is minimal with your setup. The extra water is held up in the spent grain... it goes in dry and comes out wet

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[BigPerm]

You'll stick your thermometer in a boiling water bath, and be sure it reads 212F. Then, you'll stick it in an ice water bath and be sure it reads 32F (it might be a couple of degrees higher, but be in the ballpark. That way you'll know if its reading properly. If its off, you'll simply adjust your temperature by that factor.

 

[cjgenever]

If you collected 6.25 gal@ 1.046 that's 5 [email protected]... still pretty low

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[cjgenever]

I didn't know about it when I first posted...I was just starting my boil. I didn't find this out until I put the wort in the fermenter and went well above my 5 gallon mark. I had to throw some out due to no headspace left in the bucket.

It's a iipa. I would have dumped it back in the kettle rather than dump wort. Just add more late hops when boiled down.


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[cjgenever]

I am batch sparging, and the wort was not cloudy at all. I have this thermometer:

http://www.thermoworks.com/products/low_cost/rt600b.html

I'm not sure I can calibrate it, but if I can, how do I do it?

Can't calibrate most cheap thermometers. (That's why I went with cdn, because with those you can). The best you can do is check them at freezing and boiling. Note the readings and adjust future readings accordingly. Don't forget atmospheric pressure when checking boiling temp

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[cjgenever]

Is your refractometer atc?

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?

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[MindenMan]

I too have tried Beer Smith, the free version, and I got confused too. I kept trying out different free brewing software packages. Even though I have QBrew, Brewtarget, and Brew Mate, Brew mate is my favorite. There are pages for brew notes, 8 different calculators, ie. gravity calculator, boil off, etc., and IMHO, it isn't as confusing to use.

 

[GilSwillBasementBrews]

I've used beer smith, brewpal, and beer alchemy. I have to say I prefer the beer alchemy all round. Inventory, recipes, batch notes, fermentation notes, calcs, it's pretty much a one stop shop.


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[jrgtr42]

I didn't know about it when I first posted...I was just starting my boil. I didn't find this out until I put the wort in the fermenter and went well above my 5 gallon mark. I had to throw some out due to no headspace left in the bucket.

I'd recommend making a dip stick to measure levels.
A simple dowel or some such (I used a chunk of oak) somewhat longer than your kettle is deep.
Make marks using measured amounts of water (I used gallons and first used a pocketknife to mark it, then a burning tool so I can easily see the marks. You'll be able to easily tell the levels of where you are. I check when I first start heating the wort to a boil (or when I get the full amount in the kettle) then again around 30 mins in. Sometimes I need to adjust the boil time - I just move out the late additions - yeah, my bittering charges aren't where I designed them, but I take that as a small issue.
Even if you have a sight glass on the kettle, this is a cheap and easy check.
I;m thinking that it is the high amount of liquid you have that is resulting in the low gravity.

 

[Brewcycle69]

Would it be possible for the mash PH to get high enough to cause this?

 

[stevedasleeve]

I'm assuming this is your first all grain brew? This scenario seems quintessentially the result of using brewing software without really knowing how to use it. This probably won't be a very popular suggestion but frankly my advice would be to figure out the next one with this experience as a template. You need to figure out your volumes, measure your evaporation rate, calibrate your tools and do a few more perhaps easier recipes.

FWIW you'll still have beer!

Cheers,
Steve da sleeve

 

[kenpotf]

I'm assuming this is your first all grain brew? This scenario seems quintessentially the result of using brewing software without really knowing how to use it. This probably won't be a very popular suggestion but frankly my advice would be to figure out the next one with this experience as a template. You need to figure out your volumes, measure your evaporation rate, calibrate your tools and do a few more perhaps easier recipes.

FWIW you'll still have beer!

Cheers,
Steve da sleeve

No...this is about my 7th batch, but I'm still trying to perfect my process. I learned a couple of tricks here and there in the past couple of months that made me think "huh...I should be doing that..." and, well, here I am. This probably has been happening all along, but I never knew it. As far as not knowing the software, that's the same situation. I've never delved too deep into BS, so I found a couple of things out. I have always felt like something was off, but I could never find that needle in the haystack so to speak...

 

[kenpotf]

I'd recommend making a dip stick to measure levels.
A simple dowel or some such (I used a chunk of oak) somewhat longer than your kettle is deep.
Make marks using measured amounts of water (I used gallons and first used a pocketknife to mark it, then a burning tool so I can easily see the marks. You'll be able to easily tell the levels of where you are. I check when I first start heating the wort to a boil (or when I get the full amount in the kettle) then again around 30 mins in. Sometimes I need to adjust the boil time - I just move out the late additions - yeah, my bittering charges aren't where I designed them, but I take that as a small issue.
Even if you have a sight glass on the kettle, this is a cheap and easy check.
I;m thinking that it is the high amount of liquid you have that is resulting in the low gravity.

That's a good idea. I'll need to get a dowel rod...

 

[GilSwillBasementBrews]

Or check out the thread on permanent kettle markings. Using 9volt battery, qtip, salt, and vinegar.


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[kenpotf]

I'd be more concerned about your thermometer calibration than your refractometer. 151 is a little high but not out of the ballpark for a DIPA. At any rate, assuming full conversion (1 hour in the 150s will do that), the mash temp wont give you a lower specific gravity post-fermentation (assuming you got full saccharification, if you mash too high, for example, you'll get a higher FG, but that isnt the issue here). To get that low of a gravity, your thermometer would have to be way off, ( > 10 degrees) in either direction. You won't get saccharification if the temp is higher than ~160F, and it will be very slow less that ~142F. I would guess that this, coupled with your higher volume may be the issue here. Did you do an iodine test to check for starch conversion? Was the wort cloudy?

You mentioned stirring as a factor. Are you batch sparging? in my experience, the most important step is to get the most liquid that you can out of the first runnings (particularly for high gravity beers), then add your sparge water and stir well to get the most out of the second runnings. I let my first sparge sit for at least 10 minutes to let some of the sugar leash out of the grain.

Okay...I checked my thermometer this morning. In an ice bath, it's reading 38 degrees, and with boiling water at 210.

I agree that it's off, but what would the outcome be? Technically, I would think that when I mashed in at 162, it was really at 164 which means my mlt temp with grain would've been 154 instead of the expected 152. Wouldn't this mean that the beer is going to end up sweeter than I wanted it to be, and would that affect the measured og like it did?

 

[IslandLizard]

First things that come to mind are a crush that's too coarse, not stirring your mash enough, too low or too high mash temps, or incorrect readings (measurements).

I suspect the crush was bad. +100 to your own mill.

All-grain remains a learning process until you have all your parameters tested and right. It is wise to measure the gravity from all your runnings, and a (calibrated) refractometer is the easiest way, only takes 1-2 drops and is almost instantly.

You know from the recipe how many total points you'll need in your final wort, e.g., 5.5 gallons @ 1.084 = 5.5 x 84 = 462 points.

For each of the runnings write those readings down as well as the volume you collected. Volume x gravity points = total points for each of the runnings. The sum of all those is the total points of your wort.

The iodine test only tests conversion in the liquid (wort), not of your entire mash. In a poor crush there's a lot of starch still locked up in the large chunks. The wort and enzymes simply can't get to it.
I always measure the points of each vorlauf, so I know where I'm headed, and can mash longer or stir more if needed.

If the points of your first runnings are way lower than expected, you know something is wrong. It depends on your mash volumes, you should collect at least 50-70% of all your points in the first runnings. If you're batch sparging, and didn't do a mash out, you can reheat the collected first runnings up a bit (say to 158) and dump it back in and mash longer. Or stir your first sparge really well and let it mash for another 20-30 minutes to collect more points.

 

[kenpotf]

First things that come to mind are a crush that's too coarse, not stirring your mash enough, too low or too high mash temps, or incorrect readings (measurements).

I suspect the crush was bad. +100 to your own mill.

All-grain remains a learning process until you have all your parameters tested and right. It is wise to measure the gravity from all your runnings, and a (calibrated) refractometer is the easiest way, only takes 1-2 drops and is almost instantly.

You know from the recipe how many total points you'll need in your final wort, e.g., 5.5 gallons @ 1.084 = 5.5 x 84 = 462 points.

For each of the runnings write those readings down as well as the volume you collected. Volume x gravity points = total points for each of the runnings. The sum of all those is the total points of your wort.

The iodine test only tests conversion in the liquid (wort), not of your entire mash. In a poor crush there's a lot of starch still locked up in the large chunks. The wort and enzymes simply can't get to it.
I always measure the points of each vorlauf, so I know where I'm headed, and can mash longer or stir more if needed.

If the points of your first runnings are way lower than expected, you know something is wrong. It depends on your mash volumes, you should collect at least 50-70% of all your points in the first runnings. If you're batch sparging, and didn't do a mash out, you can reheat the collected first runnings up a bit (say to 158) and dump it back in and mash longer. Or stir your first sparge really well and let it mash for another 20-30 minutes to collect more points.

Thank you! I still have a lot to learn I admit. So, you measure at vorlauf? If I was low then, could I have left it longer to get more points, or would a bad crush keep it from ever getting there no matter how long I let it mash?

 

[IslandLizard]

Yeah, once the vorlauf runs a bit clear, say after 1/2-3/4 gallon, I catch some on the point of a butter knife and take a refractometer reading. If it were lower than I expect I'd heat the vorlauf up and put it back on top of the mash. It's not as perfect but fine while you're learning your system. I find having your own mill to be crucial to get predictable crushes. I crush on the finer side, 0.030-0.034" gap on my Monster Mill MM2.

If you really want to learn mashes and all its variables, you can do small ones in a 1 or 2 gallon pot in a pre-heated and turned-off oven. Use a strainer/colander lined with a grain bag to filter through. Or in a small cooler. No need for a bulkhead and valve, just dump it in the colander. Sparge by dumping the grains back, add hot water, stir, drain, and repeat 1 more time (2 sparges total).

You can read pH, temps, gravities, etc. and get a feel of what happens.

Then either make small batches of beer (gallon milk jugs) or combine some and make a larger batch.

If the granules are very large it will take a long time to extract sugar from them, and never get it all out. Good stirring during the mash-in and perhaps another strong stir half way through the mash will help to beat the sugar out. You may want to start the mash at a bit higher temperature if you're stirring 2x.

I found out that once I open my 52qt cooler mashtun and stir midway I stand to lose 2 degrees of heat. So after the initial mash in, I leave it alone, or may take a temp reading half way, for the record, through the aluminum foil that lays on the top. When the mash is over I stir well and let it sit for 5-10 minutes before lautering. I get 80% mash efficiency typically with 2 sparges. Last running (after 2 sparges) are in the high 1.010s to low 1.020s.

 

[cjgenever]

tip... always keep some DME around in case you don't hit target OG

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[augiedoggy]

I was creating an imperial ipa today, and my estimated og was 1.084 according to beersmith. I measured 1.046 with my refractometer. I don't know what happened. I plugged these numbers into beersmith, and it's showing an efficiency of 39%....wth?!

Where do I need to start looking? Here was my process:

About 17lbs of grain
Heat water to 162 degrees
Put 17lbs of grain and 162 degree water in mash tun
Let it sit for hour while getting sparge water heated
Drained first running.
Added sparge - stirred and let sit for another 10 minutes.
Drained second runnings
Measured with refractometer
Disappointment ensues - 12.5 brix (1.049)

What did I do wrong? It has to be something....

so you have no idea what your mash temps dropped to once you mixed the 162 degree water with the grain??

I bet that was your issue since I used 171 degree water to mashing with and even then fell very short of 152 degrees. (luckily my herms coil brought it up fairly quick)
... you were likely too low of a temp for proper conversion.

EDIT nevermind I see you gave info later stating what your mash temps were...

I would guess your boil wasnt vigoruos enough to boil off enough water in the amount of time you boiled the wort...

 

[passedpawn]

tip... always keep some DME around in case you don't hit target OG

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If one uses a refractometer during the boil, you don't ever need to miss your OG. Just boil longer or less. That's what I do. I make one measurement at the beginning of the boil and from that I know exactly what volume I need to get to for my OG.

 

[cjgenever]

If one uses a refractometer during the boil, you don't ever need to miss your OG. Just boil longer or less. That's what I do. I make one measurement at the beginning of the boil and from that I know exactly what volume I need to get to for my OG.

That works fine. I like to hit all my numbers though, and extended boils mean lower volume. I typically don't need dme since my efficiency is pretty consistent, but it's great to have when I do need it!

A change in volume also means calculating hop additions on the fly. No biggie with software, but I like to avoid on the fly situations. Just my$0.02

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[dyqik]

Okay...I checked my thermometer this morning. In an ice bath, it's reading 38 degrees, and with boiling water at 210.

I agree that it's off, but what would the outcome be? Technically, I would think that when I mashed in at 162, it was really at 164 which means my mlt temp with grain would've been 154 instead of the expected 152. Wouldn't this mean that the beer is going to end up sweeter than I wanted it to be, and would that affect the measured og like it did?

I don't think that's off by any significant amount. You said you are using a Thermopen? The Thermopen is probably more accurate than your ability to make a reference ice bath or a boiling water bath - both are not simple to get right, and you have to use distilled water and water ice slurry for the cold point and correct the boiling water bath for altitude and barometric pressure. Taking the barometric pressure records for Boston, the boiling point here can vary between 209.53 F and 213.87F at the record extremes of barometric pressure, and did vary between 210.49F and 213.19F in the course of the last month.

 

[passedpawn]

That works fine. I like to hit all my numbers though, and extended boils mean lower volume. I typically don't need dme since my efficiency is pretty consistent, but it's great to have when I do need it!

A change in volume also means calculating hop additions on the fly. No biggie with software, but I like to avoid on the fly situations. Just my$0.02

Yep, that's exactly right, there's a little on-the-fly there. I'd say 90% of the time my gravities are close enough that I don't bother with changes, but the other 10% of the time, when I'm far too high or low, I can adjust and still hit the target.

 

[cjgenever]

Yep, that's exactly right, there's a little on-the-fly there. I'd say 90% of the time my gravities are close enough that I don't bother with changes, but the other 10% of the time, when I'm far too high or low, I can adjust and still hit the target.

that's one of the fun things about this hobby. we can approach a problem in two different ways and still both end up with great beer!

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[kenpotf]

If one uses a refractometer during the boil, you don't ever need to miss your OG. Just boil longer or less. That's what I do. I make one measurement at the beginning of the boil and from that I know exactly what volume I need to get to for my OG.

I do have a question about what you said. When I measured, it was before the boil and I was already 40 points lower than anticipated. How would you correct that? If I boiled longer, would it increase or decrease og?

 

[cjgenever]

I do have a question about what you said. When I measured, it was before the boil and I was already 40 points lower than anticipated. How would you correct that? If I boiled longer, would it increase or decrease og?

Your not going to gain 40 points without a ridiculous amount of boiling. I correct it with dme and extended boil if it were to happen. I'll ask again, is your refractometer atc?

Your last question is silly to me.

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