SMaSH Advice

[BandonBrewingCo]

Hi,

I'm planning on doing 2 SMaSHs as an educational/tasting exercise.

The two recipes are as follows:

Quantity Recipe 1 Recipe2
---------------------------------------------------------------
4.5KG Vienna Malt Pale Malt
30g 60 min Cascade 5.5% Crystal 4.9%
30g 15 min Cascade 5.5% Crystal 4.9%
10g 5 min Cascade 5.5% Crystal 4.9%
30g flameout Cascade 5.5% Crystal 4.9%
-----------------------------------------------------------------

2 Questions

1. Would I be better doing both with the same hop or will the hops and malts be distinctive enough that I'll get to know all 4 different tastes (though sacrificing a possible combination).

2. Does the hop schedule look ok for getting to know the hops?

Thanks in advance

 

[jjw5015]

Add some dryhops

 

[mongoose33]

As always, as soon as you have more than one variable it's possible the differences between the two batches might be due to one, or the other, or some combination.

Since your purpose seems to be to get to know the hops, I'd keep the malt constant and vary the hops.

I just kegged a SMASH yesterday; the first one I did use Maris Otter and East Kent Goldings; the one yesterday used Maris Otter and Styrian Celeia. I like EKG, but also SC; anxious to compare. And since Maris Otter is my base malt, I can see which plays better with it.

If you have a base malt you typically use, that's (IMO) the one you should use to compare the hops.

 

[BandonBrewingCo]

Funny you should say that because if push came to shove my aim is more nailing down the grains first, then the hops. The next two SMaSH's after these will be with munich and pilsner malts.

I suppose for that reason I might be better off sticking to the one hop (for all four).

So given that I'm more looking to get to know my malts first (with a bit of side knowledge of hops) would I be better toning back the late hop additions or will it not overpower the malt?

 

[kh54s10]

If you want to find out the difference between malts - change the malt.
If you want to find out the difference between hops - change the hops

To keep them similar in ABV and IBU you might need to change the amount of Malt or Hops. Maybe the timing of hop additions also.

 

[RedlegEd]

@RandonBrewingCo. Based on your grain bill, it looks like you're doing 19L/5 gallon batches. Might I recommend starting with a smaller batch size (i.e. 9L/2.5 Gal?) You still have the opportunity to learn the interplay between the malt and hops, and the impact of your hops schedule, but you don't commit an entire 5 gallons to do it. A while ago, I did a SMaSH with Munich (12L°) and Ahtanum hops. Here's the recipe I used:

2.5 Gallons, BIAB
3.5 lbs Munich
.25 oz Ahtanum (4.6 AA) @ 90 min
.25 oz Ahtanum (4.6 AA) @ 60 min
.50 oz Ahtanum (4.6 AA) @ 5 min

Mash @ 154°F 90 min
Mashout @ 168°F 10 min

US-05 (1/2 Sachet) fermented @ 62°F until done, cold crash, then bottle.

The result was a super malty, smooth beer with a nice floral nose and beautiful balance with a slightly bitter finish. Here's what it looked like. The Vienna should be a little sweeter, lighter and stronger ABV since I think it has more enzymatic power than Munich. Whatever you do, take good notes so you can come back and revisit it. Ed

 

[BandonBrewingCo]

@RedlegEd

I was thinking of halving the batches alright but decided against it for two reasons.

The difference in labour is almost 0
The difference in cost is ~€7

Sure It'll take up more bottles but I want to put away a six pack of each SMaSH to taste side by side down the line.

Bearing in mind due to stupid summer warm weather this will be my first brew in 6 months so supplies are pretty low so storage won't be an issue

Thanks for the recipe though!

 

[RedlegEd]

@RedlegEd

I was thinking of halving the batches alright but decided against it for two reasons.

The difference in labour is almost 0
The difference in cost is ~€7

Sure It'll take up more bottles but I want to put away a six pack of each SMaSH to taste side by side down the line.

Bearing in mind due to stupid summer warm weather this will be my first brew in 6 months so supplies are pretty low so storage won't be an issue

Thanks for the recipe though!

That makes a lot of sense, and I think your beers will be very good at any rate! On the plus side, you're rebuilding your pipeline, which is very important. It's hard to imagine Innsbruck being too warm, but I guess it can happen. My family on my mom's side are all in Wels or Linz, and my son is in Leipzig, so I know it's been a really warm summer in Europe. Good luck on your beers and let us know how they turned out. Ed

 

[BandonBrewingCo]

Will do. Innsbruck reached 40c this summer!

 

[RedlegEd]

Will do. Innsbruck reached 40c this summer!

No way!
For those metrically challenged folks following this, that's ~104°F. Remember that Innsbruck, Austria is in the Alps and was the site of the 1964 and 1976 Winter Olympic Games. The typical high summer temperature is around 19°C (~66°F), so that's smokin hot for that region.

 

[kh54s10]

@RandonBrewingCo. Based on your grain bill, it looks like you're doing 19L/5 gallon batches. Might I recommend starting with a smaller batch size (i.e. 9L/2.5 Gal?) You still have the opportunity to learn the interplay between the malt and hops, and the impact of your hops schedule, but you don't commit an entire 5 gallons to do it. A while ago, I did a SMaSH with Munich (12L°) and Ahtanum hops. Here's the recipe I used:

2.5 Gallons, BIAB
3.5 lbs Munich
.25 oz Ahtanum (4.6 AA) @ 90 min
.25 oz Ahtanum (4.6 AA) @ 60 min
.50 oz Ahtanum (4.6 AA) @ 5 min

Mash @ 154°F 90 min
Mashout @ 168°F 10 min

US-05 (1/2 Sachet) fermented @ 62°F until done, cold crash, then bottle.

The result was a super malty, smooth beer with a nice floral nose and beautiful balance with a slightly bitter finish. Here's what it looked like. The Vienna should be a little sweeter, lighter and stronger ABV since I think it has more enzymatic power than Munich. Whatever you do, take good notes so you can come back and revisit it. Ed

Which Munich Malt did you use for this SMaSH? It looks really dark.

Bet it was good though. I lean toward darker beers.

 

[mongoose33]

Funny you should say that because if push came to shove my aim is more nailing down the grains first, then the hops. The next two SMaSH's after these will be with munich and pilsner malts.

I suppose for that reason I might be better off sticking to the one hop (for all four).

So given that I'm more looking to get to know my malts first (with a bit of side knowledge of hops) would I be better toning back the late hop additions or will it not overpower the malt?

If you're trying to compare the hops, use a hop charge that fits your tastes. I'm not a hop-head, so I tend not to have so much in my beers, but if hops are what you live for, hop 'em up. I don't think the hop bill is out of line at all.

 

[Paps]

I do a fair amount of SMASH beers.
I suggest using the same malt for each brew.
I also suggest using a pale malt like 2-row.
Yes they will be fairly plain/one dimentional beers.
But it will help you learn the hops and what they contribute to a beer.
Which is i beleive to be your `end goal`

Brew on!

 

[RedlegEd]

Which Munich Malt did you use for this SMaSH? It looks really dark.

Bet it was good though. I lean toward darker beers.

If I were to do it again, I would use a Light Munich (~6-8L°)

to your question, I had some Colorado Malting Co - Colorado Munich which I figured was between 10-12L°. You're right, it was excellent! Very dark and malty, and the Ahtanum complimented it well (even though the hop is recommended more for APA, IPA, and some Lagers.) I did an incredible Bock with Ahtanum.

Unfortunately, CMC has grown to the point where they don't do direct sales to homebrewers. The only way I know to get CMC malt is to go through Boulder Fermentation Supply. They're great guys, but they slap a hefty markup on the grain and it's not cost effective to buy it from out of state.

Sorry, I just checked the CMC website and apparently, there are a few other Homebrew Shops that now carry CMC malt.

 

[BandonBrewingCo]

No way!
For those metrically challenged folks following this, that's ~104°F. Remember that Innsbruck, Austria is in the Alps and was the site of the 1964 and 1976 Winter Olympic Games. The typical high summer temperature is around 19°C (~66°F), so that's smokin hot for that region.

I'm here a few years now and that's the average temp of the lake water in summer! Today's high according to accuweather will be 23.

Don't worry, plenty of snow too in Winter

 

[BandonBrewingCo]

If you're trying to compare the hops, use a hop charge that fits your tastes. I'm not a hop-head, so I tend not to have so much in my beers, but if hops are what you live for, hop 'em up. I don't think the hop bill is out of line at all.

I do a fair amount of SMASH beers.
I suggest using the same malt for each brew.
I also suggest using a pale malt like 2-row.
Yes they will be fairly plain/one dimentional beers.
But it will help you learn the hops and what they contribute to a beer.
Which is i beleive to be your `end goal`

Brew on!

Found the hop-heads!

I'm actually looking to start with learning the malts (the way I see it, they are the foundation of a beer) so I'll keep the hops constant with Cascade and I'm aiming for 30-35 IBUS.

I'll report back :rockin:

 

[BandonBrewingCo]

If anyone is interested...
I found no difference between pale malt and marris otter.
Vienna malt is too sweet to use as a base malt.
I didn't get around to doing a Pilsner SMASH.

The MO and Pale beers got raving reviews at the local meetup. Everyone agreed with me on the Vienna as a base being too sweet.

 

[Miraculix]

If anyone is interested...
I found no difference between pale malt and marris otter.
Vienna malt is too sweet to use as a base malt.
I didn't get around to doing a Pilsner SMASH.

The MO and Pale beers got raving reviews at the local meetup. Everyone agreed with me on the Vienna as a base being too sweet.

Vienna is not sweeter than regular 2row and a fabulous base malt on its own. It lacks enough diastetic power to convert much adjuncts but converts on it's own just fine.

Don't know what you did wrong. Mashed too high? Wrong yeast for the job?

 

[kh54s10]

Did you just get around to these or did you do them in 2016?

What pale malt did you use? There is pale malt which is very lightly kilned and there is pale ale malt that is closer to Maris Otter. Maris Otter is also a specific strain of 2 row barley.

Depending on which pale malt you could see a bigger difference but it would still be subtle.

I have never tried an all Vienna beer but I could see it as being too sweet for a pale ale. I could see it as the only base malt in other styles though.

added: maybe not seeing Miraculix's reply.

 

[BandonBrewingCo]

Vienna is not sweeter than regular 2row and a fabulous base malt on its own. It lacks enough diastetic power to convert much adjuncts but converts on it's own just fine.

Don't know what you did wrong. Mashed too high? Wrong yeast for the job?

Same process for every beer. 65C for 1 hour and US-05.

Did you just get around to these or did you do them in 2016?

What pale malt did you use? There is pale malt which is very lightly kilned and there is pale ale malt that is closer to Maris Otter. Maris Otter is also a specific strain of 2 row barley.

Depending on which pale malt you could see a bigger difference but it would still be subtle.

I have never tried an all Vienna beer but I could see it as being too sweet for a pale ale. I could see it as the only base malt in other styles though.

added: maybe not seeing Miraculix's reply.

Did these in 2016, was looking for the thread for reference and noticed I had never reported back! The pale malt was from Crisp:


Description

EBC 5.7


Flagon Variety.


Top quality Norfolk-grown 2-row winter malting barley is widely recognised as the best raw material for traditional ale malt.


Low protein barleys are sourced from local farmers who are in partnership with Crisp Malting Group through the ABC Grower Group and are qualified as the very best malting barley growers.


During malting, high cast moistures and a balance of germination time and temperature guarantee an even, well modified malt which is ideally suited to ale brewing. The characteristic higher colour and balanced sweet, malty flavour results in this malt being one of the most popular and distinctive malt styles.


Crisp Malting Group Best Ale Malt is suited to infusion mashing and top fermentation which typifies traditional ale brewing, but is also very well suited for ale brewing using more modern techniques.

 

[Miraculix]

Same process for every beer. 65C for 1 hour and US-05.



Did these in 2016, was looking for the thread for reference and noticed I had never reported back! The pale malt was from Crisp:


Description

EBC 5.7


Flagon Variety.


Top quality Norfolk-grown 2-row winter malting barley is widely recognised as the best raw material for traditional ale malt.


Low protein barleys are sourced from local farmers who are in partnership with Crisp Malting Group through the ABC Grower Group and are qualified as the very best malting barley growers.


During malting, high cast moistures and a balance of germination time and temperature guarantee an even, well modified malt which is ideally suited to ale brewing. The characteristic higher colour and balanced sweet, malty flavour results in this malt being one of the most popular and distinctive malt styles.


Crisp Malting Group Best Ale Malt is suited to infusion mashing and top fermentation which typifies traditional ale brewing, but is also very well suited for ale brewing using more modern techniques.

Strange. Should have resulted in a nice smash with this Vienna smash. Are you sure that you had Vienna malt and not cara Vienna?

 

[kh54s10]

Same process for every beer. 65C for 1 hour and US-05.

Did these in 2016, was looking for the thread for reference and noticed I had never reported back! The pale malt was from Crisp:

Description

EBC 5.7

Flagon Variety.

Top quality Norfolk-grown 2-row winter malting barley is widely recognised as the best raw material for traditional ale malt.

Low protein barleys are sourced from local farmers who are in partnership with Crisp Malting Group through the ABC Grower Group and are qualified as the very best malting barley growers.

During malting, high cast moistures and a balance of germination time and temperature guarantee an even, well modified malt which is ideally suited to ale brewing. The characteristic higher colour and balanced sweet, malty flavour results in this malt being one of the most popular and distinctive malt styles.

Crisp Malting Group Best Ale Malt is suited to infusion mashing and top fermentation which typifies traditional ale brewing, but is also very well suited for ale brewing using more modern techniques.

That would explain why your pale malt SMaSH was close to Maris Otter. This would be a pale ale malt which is a little darker and maltier than pale malt as is Maris Otter.

Rahr 2 row pale malt for instance would have an EBC of about 3.6. It would be lighter and have less malt flavor.

 

[BandonBrewingCo]

Strange. Should have resulted in a nice smash with this Vienna smash. Are you sure that you had Vienna malt and not cara Vienna?

100%. Even checked my order history around that time ;-)
Here's the product

Vienna Malt (7 - 9 EBC) - crushed

Used for the following beer styles:

• Vienna Beer Style, "Maerzenbier", "Maibock", Amber Lager, Home Brew Beer, Golden Ale and October Beer

Result:

• full bodied, golden colored smooth tasting beers

Rate:

• up to 100%

 

[Miraculix]

100%. Even checked my order history around that time ;-)
Here's the product

Vienna Malt (7 - 9 EBC) - crushed

Used for the following beer styles:

• Vienna Beer Style, "Maerzenbier", "Maibock", Amber Lager, Home Brew Beer, Golden Ale and October Beer

Result:

• full bodied, golden colored smooth tasting beers

Rate:

• up to 100%

Interesting. My smash with Vienna was really nice, and I am not a fan of those sweeter beers, I like my beer dry.

I read that Vienna and Munich can differ quite a lot from maltster to maltster, so maybe it is because of that.

 

[BandonBrewingCo]

Could be. I'm in Austria so perhaps what ye get in the UK is different. We have totally different weather (extreme winters and summers) so that's bound to produce different barley. Add in different malting traditions (I assume there would be...) and that probably accounts for it

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Flagon is one of the more "Otter-like" varieties of barley (from memory there's a fair bit of Otter in the parentage), and if you're getting it malted by Crisp to 5.7EBC, then it's no surprise that it comes out closer to a typical Otter malt than some of the US and European pale malts. British maltsters have a slightly darker idea of pale malt than other countries.

 

[BeerMom]

@RandonBrewingCo. Based on your grain bill, it looks like you're doing 19L/5 gallon batches. Might I recommend starting with a smaller batch size (i.e. 9L/2.5 Gal?) You still have the opportunity to learn the interplay between the malt and hops, and the impact of your hops schedule, but you don't commit an entire 5 gallons to do it. A while ago, I did a SMaSH with Munich (12L°) and Ahtanum hops. Here's the recipe I used:

2.5 Gallons, BIAB
3.5 lbs Munich
.25 oz Ahtanum (4.6 AA) @ 90 min
.25 oz Ahtanum (4.6 AA) @ 60 min
.50 oz Ahtanum (4.6 AA) @ 5 min

Mash @ 154°F 90 min
Mashout @ 168°F 10 min

US-05 (1/2 Sachet) fermented @ 62°F until done, cold crash, then bottle.

The result was a super malty, smooth beer with a nice floral nose and beautiful balance with a slightly bitter finish. Here's what it looked like. The Vienna should be a little sweeter, lighter and stronger ABV since I think it has more enzymatic power than Munich. Whatever you do, take good notes so you can come back and revisit it. Ed


View attachment 371630

Cold crash & then bottle?!!

 

[Lefou]

Interesting. My smash with Vienna was really nice, and I am not a fan of those sweeter beers, I like my beer dry.

I read that Vienna and Munich can differ quite a lot from maltster to maltster, so maybe it is because of that.

I typically get Briess Vienna malts.
That particular brand converts well, and with enough of it done with a 90 minute mash at 145F-150F range, it can produce a dry, toasty beer with lager yeast at warmer fermentation temps.

 

[Miraculix]

I typically get Briess Vienna malts.
That particular brand converts well, and with enough of it done with a 90 minute mash at 145F-150F range, it can produce a dry, toasty beer with lager yeast at warmer fermentation temps.

I think I also might have had briess. Or weyermann, don't remember.

 

[RedlegEd]

Cold crash & then bottle?!!

Sure! There'll be plenty of the little yeasties left in suspension to carb up your bottled deliciousness. Cold crashing will take most of the larger particles out of suspension and drop them to the bottom (it's called flocking.) You'll still have some dregs in the bottom of your bottles because as they carb the beer, the yeast will generate more cells, but I've found it to be less than if you just bottled without crashing first. Good luck! Ed

 

[BandonBrewingCo]

I'd like to add to the conversation on Vienna malt is that I have absolutely no sweet tooth. German Dunkels tend to be too like a cola for my taste buds

 

[Miraculix]

I'd like to add to the conversation on Vienna malt is that I have absolutely no sweet tooth. German Dunkels tend to be too like a cola for my taste buds

It really heavily depends on the brand you buy. We got sweeter ones and really dry ones. Impossible to generalize. Try a jever dark as an example for a really dry dark one.