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ferrarimobile

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I am planning on making a go at commercial brewing. We are opening a bar and planning on getting the license to brew beer there. I want to test more recipies, but don't necessarily want to brew several dozen 5 gallon batches. Does anyone know if I can brew a 1 gallon batch (1/4 the ingredients) which would be representative of a larger batch without compromising the integrity of the product substantially? Would I use the same amount of yeast or less for a gallon?
 
You can use a little bit less, but if you're using liquid yeast you're probably going to use the whole thing. A pitching rate calculator is what you need.

Brewing software will help you downsize the recipe, the grain bill will pretty much scale, but the hops might not necessarily.

And good luck!
 
your wanting to start commercially brewing beer, but 5 gallons is to big of a test batch? I must be missing something
 
But he's doing several dozen. I can see his point.


your still doing all the work and plan on doing it commercially, 5 gallons is not anything then 10 isnt even anything. I would think 10 or 5 would be better, you could split that up between a few carboys, test yeast, hops, dry hops, etc.
 
+1 on the brewing software to scale down (and up!)

i generally do five gallon batches, but ive been doing pilot batches of 2-2.5 gallons (just started, really) in 3 gallon carboys.

i'm also building an 18 gallon system which is the pilot for even larger batches planned in the near future.

i think from 1-20 gallons, you can probably just scale up so from 1 to 5 just take the ingredients times 5. i've heard it gets different when you go to large (think 10bbl or larger.) not sure why though. not something i've looked TOO far into, yet.
 
it gets different when you go to large (think 10bbl or larger.)

So I will assume the answer here is go large or stay home.
I'll stay home but maybe *someone* (hint) could start a thread on scaling 1-6 Gal batches on testing yeast, temp, etc. Just how do you test hops outside of dry hopping?
I have seen some threads, but not enough to get me from eyeing my 1gal jugs to doing something. But with this hops "shortage" I find myself using hops I have never used going off of substitution recommendations and all I can say is "I'm not a happy camper".
Is there a good "substitution" for American cascades?
 
just take the ingredients times 5.

This is okay for the grainbill, but hops are different. You have to balance the amount of hops factoring in a new boilvolume or gravity. The utilization is different and cannot be factored linearly like the grains.

If you use software, just plug/delete/plug until you hit the correct IBUs. Flavor and aroma is different, of course, because you can't quantify those with numbers.
 
Ferrarimobile,

Whoa, pardner. You're running before you can even haul yourself up on your hands and knees.

What are your core brands? What focus do you envision for your brewpub? What's your branding plan? What foods do you plan to serve? What size and kind of system will be in your brewery? Does your business plan encompass the initial focus and plan for potential changes in focus should the initial focus fail?

There are more questions. I got a bazillion of 'em.

But here's something very simple to work on until you assemble the answers to the others: Do you have tried, true and excellent recipes for light, copper, dark, wheat? Or are you just throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks? Unless you've got solid core recipes around which to rotate the "seasonals", it really doesn't matter how good your seasonals are. Your reputation will be made on the quality of your year-round brews.

Commercial brewing, even in a brewpub, isn't as free as homebrewing. You're more often than not brewing the same old recipe as you brewed last week. You should be brewing the same old recipe as you brewed last week; if you're not, there's something wrong with your core brands.

Instead of brewing all those 1-gallon batches, practice consistency. Get your Core Four to the point that you can brew them week after week without noticeable difference. Get two types of people to taste them: one, those who are very familiar with the Core Four, and two, those who have no idea what it's supposed to taste like. Wow the newcomers and try to keep the old-timers satisfied. In fact, if you've been brewing your Core Four in 5-gallon batches, upgrade to 10, 15 or larger. As large as you can beg, borrow or steal a brewhouse for. Ferment in the same batch size - don't split the batch into 5-gallon carboys, because fermentation changes as you scale, too.

Simply put, there ain't no shortcut for scaling. You do the math as best you can to get you in the ballpark, but then it's just a matter of sticking ingredients into the equipment. Some batches you're gonna dump (or dry-hop and rename!). Some are gonna be bang on. But you gotta do the work on the scale at which you're gonna sell. There is no shortcut.

Good luck!

Bob
 
If i'm not mistaken, i think he just said commercial brewing, not necessarily brewpub. BUT, from what i understand, that'd be more of an uphill climb since a brewpub's food actually pays for the brewery portion. With a micro, the only income you're getting is from the beer, putting your back against the wall in the beginning.
 
If i'm not mistaken, i think he just said commercial brewing, not necessarily brewpub. BUT, from what i understand, that'd be more of an uphill climb since a brewpub's food actually pays for the brewery portion. With a micro, the only income you're getting is from the beer, putting your back against the wall in the beginning.

First, the OP wrote:
We are opening a bar and planning on getting the license to brew beer there.
That scans like "brewpub" to me.

Anyhow, what you say is kind of true; based on my experience, it's not exactly 100% true, but close.

The micro for which I used to work had for years a small pub attached that was a good revenue source for the brewery (there were some months where it was a positive gold mine). But it was never the food that paid for anything. Let's do the arithmetic, shall we?

When a pint of your beer costs the customer $4.00, and it costs you (including overhead, wages, taxes, etc.) $0.24 to bring it to the customer, that $3.76 clear profit, or 94% profit margin.

When a plate of food costs the customer $10.00 and costs you $2.50, that's $7.50 clear, or a 25% cost on food. (25% food cost is best-case. You're lucky to get below 35% in the kitchen.)

You actually make more money on beer than food. And since you get far more beer fans in a brewpub or brewery bar than foodies, it's pretty straightforward that the food, while important to retaining customers, doesn't have to get people in the door. It certainly doesn't pay for the brewery. The beer does.

Add in off-premise sales - i.e., bottled or kegged product, not just growlers - and suddenly you've got a whole new revenue stream.

Anyway, the beer is the draw. The service and the food keep the beer geek's family coming back. And repeat custom is what keeps a restaurant open.

Now, addressing the back being against the wall. The only solution for that is being well capitalized. Too many breweries were started by brewers in the Microbrewery Revolution. Those breweries no longer exist. Those started by businessmen (or a partnership between business and beer) still exist, and in most cases are thriving.

Brewers started breweries on a shoestring budget, with old milk-processing equipment, no clearly-designated business goal or model, no core brands that set them apart from the herd, no marketing plan, and (most unhappily) precious little capital to see them through the tough times.

Businessmen started breweries rightly thinking of the beer as a product which needed to be sold in a tough market. They knew to find a niche and market their product into that niche. And they knew to have a cash reserve for when times got tight. Hell, the most successful craft brewer in America didn't even have an actual brewery until years after he started his business!

This is especially important in brewpubs. You must never forget that they're a restaurant first and a brewery second. They have a built-in niche in that the customer can get fresh craft beer made on-premise. But you still have to market the place, you still have to have enough cash laid by to make payroll if things get tight (or to buy new equipment), etc.

The long and short of it is: Brewing is business. Brewers, like most artists, generally make lousy businessmen. If you want to make beer for a living, your sanity is far safer working for someone else. ;)

Cheers,

Bob
 
This is okay for the grainbill, but hops are different. You have to balance the amount of hops factoring in a new boilvolume or gravity. The utilization is different and cannot be factored linearly like the grains.

If you use software, just plug/delete/plug until you hit the correct IBUs. Flavor and aroma is different, of course, because you can't quantify those with numbers.

you'd get the same utilization at the same gravity. 5 or 10 gallons, if i start with 6.5 or 13 gallons with a boil-off of 1.5 or 3 gallons, it would theoretically be the same.
 
I am working on coordinating a batch of beer with a brew-pub and some bars. I plan to put the beer into my local market. I have 2 bars that will put it on. I am working on another restaurant to offer it as its house ale at its 4 locations. It would be a test run and then we would brew more if successful. I also thought to keg some and bottle some to get into local stores. I know a guy at one beer distributor and a friend of the family is married to the local Budweiser guy.

The benefit of this is that I do not have to provide capital in the beginning. If it takes off, then I could expand into a small system. If the brew-pub grows too much, then I can still look at others for contract brewing.
 
I am planning on making a go at commercial brewing. We are opening a bar and planning on getting the license to brew beer there. I want to test more recipies, but don't necessarily want to brew several dozen 5 gallon batches. Does anyone know if I can brew a 1 gallon batch (1/4 the ingredients) which would be representative of a larger batch without compromising the integrity of the product substantially? Would I use the same amount of yeast or less for a gallon?

Im in Illinois .... where are you thinking of opening this bar... Id like to check it out!
 
Thanks for learnin' me up on that stuff. Pretty interesting actually.

That scans like "brewpub" to me.

Yeah, we're talking about the same thing, i think, anyway. I equate "brewpub" to be a restaurant, in addition, anyway. I just wanted to re-iterate the fact that, in my uneducated opinion, a beer business is much more apt to survive and flourish if there's food tied to it.

I'll stop my hijacking, now, though.

Death - good point on the gravity thing. That one actually slipped by my "reason filter" before i started typing.:eek:
 
Death - good point on the gravity thing. That one actually slipped by my "reason filter" before i started typing.:eek:

your argument still makes sense....especially if there is not as much boil off and other factors like that.

even with software, i think it's hard to be perfect. the pilot is basically to get a good beer in place, then to work it on the full size setup. the main point is consistency once you DO have the recipe. if you use the same water at the same temperature with the same grains applying the same hops at the same AAU with the same process, you will get the same beer. but it's definitely difficult.

and all setups work SO much differently. just when i got used to my 5 gallon cooler AG setup, i bought all the equipment for my 18 gallon setup. i've tried to do 5 gallon batches on it, but i've run into tons of problems, especially with doing runnings while trying to filter a wit. yikes, that's a PITA. i think i'm going to do 10 gallon batches or more only with that setup, or at least get a different boiling pot. i need to give my 30 qt kettle a false bottom. there's just too wide a surface with the 120 qt kettle.

ok, i'm rambling...yes, you can do pilot systems. but there are MANY factors. you get the idea.
 
There is nothing inherently wrong with bootstrapping any type of business and I would think a micro would be no exception. The road to success though is much different than through determining and getting the anticipated cash needs prior to launch.

The biggest problem I see with the approach is wishful thinking on the part of the person trying to accomplish this. The whole point of bootstrapping is to let the business finance it's own growth. This gets confused with just being cheap and getting the doors open and hoping everything will work out. More often than not, wishful thinking.

To put it another way, if you need an income, your not bootstrapping your gambling...

But he's openning a bar and adding a brewing license, so it sounds as if brewing is, at least at first, going to be a secondary part of his business. Sounds like he wants to try a wide range of possible styles before focusing on his core.

This is not meant to be a slam at Bob, his advise sounds very sound. Just throwing in my 2 cents worth because wise advise often tends to overlook that bootstrapping a business is a legitimate way to open a business, more risky, but legitimate and a huge percentage of today's successful companies were bootstrap operations at the beginning.
 
No slam taken. Bootstrapping does indeed work. My current business is bootstrapping. Hell, I used to be head brewer for a brewery that bootstrapped its way through ten years. Now, 13 years on, it's apparently quite successful (and so is my current business, thanks much!).

But consider that the owner has five mortgages on his house, used to sweat the grain order and let the payment slip to 'net 120' from net 30, shook like a leaf on payroll day, didn't pay himself a salary for eight of the first ten years, and took ten years to go from 3,000bbl/year to 15,000bbl/year.

This while other micros in our region were expanding past 50,000bbl in their first five years of business.

With proper capitalization, the headaches would have been exponentially less prominent. That's all I'm saying. Yeah, you can plan to bootstrap, but it's far less stress to just have a big wad of cash in the bank from which to draw. ;)

Bob
 
Hi Bob, sounds like you know your way around the industry and much more about all of this than I do of course. Lack of cash doe not have to mean shelve it.

No doubt, bootstrapping is a hard way to start a business. It also is often a waste of time because no money is easily confused with no need to have a business plan and never needing money.

I'm not sure a micro that plans to bootstrap should be shooting for 3000 bls in the beginning. With a large nut to crack your moving into wishful thinking territory- hence five mortgages on the house and 8 years without an income. The fact that he didn't fail shows his moxy for sure.

That sounds more like a producing brewery (small, but bigger than a bootstrap should be) that is under funded and robbing Peter to pay Paul and in the end he made it all work.

I would consider an alternative approach is to plan the INITIAL operation out as a bootstrap. No/low capital means the business plan and projections have to show that. Bootstrapping means very, very low initial cash-flow and very,very slow growth until you do line up the funding needed for proper growth that does not require you risk financial hell.

I've read a number of post around the web making fun of the weekend/evening warrior, buy/build cheap equipment, labor of love start-up. Without money- I would argue this is the way to start. Check the ego at the door, you do not have enough money to start a brewery per se. Make sure that the pitiful revenue for the first year or two is handled as a sideline venture and treat the entire operation more like a pilot brewery rather than a commercial micro-brewery. More than a hobby/less than a business until it, as a small pilot, is running smoothly and kicking out consistently great beer for the small little group you have buying it. Get creative to make that tiny little group as big as you can. If you can't get this little sucker into the black then forget quiting your day job and risking it all. It scales from here and if you cannot make it work at this scale you likely will have tons of problems scaling up. I believe Mac & Jacks started as a garage operation similar to this (not positive but it seems seems like it was them) .

At that point I would think it is time to line up funding. I've sat in the board room watching folks write out half million dollar checks for the expansion of an existing business. Product and systems of a going concern (even small) can raise money. A stack of projections and great sounding ad hoc business plan is a very tough sell. It obviously can be done but from I'm reading it is damn near impossible to raise even a few hundred grand with a couple of homebrews and a business plan based on hope.

That's how I'd do it anyway :)
 
Thanks to everyone who replied. I think I'm concerned about cost and time because we are trying to make primarily the same beer with slight variations to see which one to take to final recipe. So, for example, we would have a hefeweizen with maybe eight variations ranging from using varying amounts of honey to not at all, different amounts of wheat, different yeasts, and gravities etc. Most of the beers are set - Porter, Belgian Ale, Cream Ale, Stout, Oktoberfest and so on, but I have not had enough experience brewing a few varieties with a large enough variety of ingredients to take commercial, but I know that the market shows a demand as well as I just have an intrinsic desire to make the best possible product. We have decided to narrow the field down a bit and experiment as we go along with other styles. Again, thanks for the posts and interest.
 
Ferrarimobile,

Whoa, pardner. You're running before you can even haul yourself up on your hands and knees.

What are your core brands? What focus do you envision for your brewpub? What's your branding plan? What foods do you plan to serve? What size and kind of system will be in your brewery? Does your business plan encompass the initial focus and plan for potential changes in focus should the initial focus fail?

There are more questions. I got a bazillion of 'em.

But here's something very simple to work on until you assemble the answers to the others: Do you have tried, true and excellent recipes for light, copper, dark, wheat? Or are you just throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks? Unless you've got solid core recipes around which to rotate the "seasonals", it really doesn't matter how good your seasonals are. Your reputation will be made on the quality of your year-round brews.

Commercial brewing, even in a brewpub, isn't as free as homebrewing. You're more often than not brewing the same old recipe as you brewed last week. You should be brewing the same old recipe as you brewed last week; if you're not, there's something wrong with your core brands.

Instead of brewing all those 1-gallon batches, practice consistency. Get your Core Four to the point that you can brew them week after week without noticeable difference. Get two types of people to taste them: one, those who are very familiar with the Core Four, and two, those who have no idea what it's supposed to taste like. Wow the newcomers and try to keep the old-timers satisfied. In fact, if you've been brewing your Core Four in 5-gallon batches, upgrade to 10, 15 or larger. As large as you can beg, borrow or steal a brewhouse for. Ferment in the same batch size - don't split the batch into 5-gallon carboys, because fermentation changes as you scale, too.

Simply put, there ain't no shortcut for scaling. You do the math as best you can to get you in the ballpark, but then it's just a matter of sticking ingredients into the equipment. Some batches you're gonna dump (or dry-hop and rename!). Some are gonna be bang on. But you gotta do the work on the scale at which you're gonna sell. There is no shortcut.

Good luck!

Bob
Bob,
I read your message a few times in the last couple of months since I wrote my question. I greatly appreciate the feedback. I really do not worry too much about the food aspect of the bar - that is my partners obligation at this point. My responsibility is brewing and managing the staff. We don't necessarily plan on the Brew Pub to be the largest portion of the game at this point. We just want a draw. My hope is that we can grow from the location into something great. We will be experimenting with certain batches, but we will also be using mostly the same old recipes over and over again to make sure we have a consistent product - staples and monikers. We have branding, labels, copy-written trademarks etc. My original question was directed towards a few beer styles that we wanted to really experiment with - grain & hop selection, yeast varieties, adjuncts, fermentation temperatures etc. We have decided that 5 gallon batches are the minimum and that we will take our tie developing new varieties considering the myriad of directions we could go and the available materials. I appreciate your input greatly and hope that we can chat again.
 
While the whole country is wondering how to survive the slowdown I think that starting a brewing operation when you can not find hops is asking for failure. It's not a time to take chances. There are already failures in the brewing industry that already make good beer but they can not continue because they can not get the hops they need.
 
Geez, Thanks for the vote of confidence WBC. Maybe try pissing on your own parade instead of mine, thanks. I'll just do fine I'm sure.
 
...starting a brewing operation when you can not find hops is asking for failure.

From what I understand, only certain hops are still hard to get, but other varieties are farily obtainable. I know numbers are still down across the board, but I think it, now, mainly depends on WHAT you're trying to get. I wouldn't so much automatically think it's a setup for failure, though. Just my 2cents.

Don't sweat it, ferrari. I think it just takes a little extra research to determine what types of hops you're going to use, and try to base your brews for the first couple years on something that's fairly readily obtainable.
 
Bob,
I read your message a few times in the last couple of months since I wrote my question. I greatly appreciate the feedback. {snip} My original question was directed towards a few beer styles that we wanted to really experiment with - grain & hop selection, yeast varieties, adjuncts, fermentation temperatures etc.

It's important to experiment, especially with a view toward recipe standardization and ingredient economy of scale. For example, I like to formulate 10-20bbl recipes by the sack or half-sack of grain. That way you don't (or seldom) end up with 17.65 lbs of, say, Chocolate Malt. I also recommend choosing one base malt and buying a LOT of it. It's waaaay less expensive in the long run, and you damn well can make excellent Tripel with US 2-row; there's no need to go buying small amounts of European Pilsner malt. :D

In fact, I enjoy seeing how many different styles I can get out of the smallest variety of ingredients. For example, you can brew more than a dozen different styles from US 2-row, 60L Crystal, Chocolate Malt and Wheat Malt. Depends on the proportions, the hops, and the yeast. Hell, I can get Tripel, American Blonde, Koelsch, and "Worldwide Lager" with US 2-row alone; depends on the hops, yeast and technique.

Anything more I can do to help, click the link in my sig. :mug:

Bob
 
While the whole country is wondering how to survive the slowdown I think that starting a brewing operation when you can not find hops is asking for failure. It's not a time to take chances. There are already failures in the brewing industry that already make good beer but they can not continue because they can not get the hops they need.

Now is actually the best time to start a new business.
It can only get better from here.

It's also the best time to expand a business cause your
advertising dollar goes way farther and there's less competition.
New and used equipment prices come down and contractors
bid way lower on projects because they need work!
 
OK I am a fool and will keep my money. Start your brewery. Good luck. I was not trying to pi$$ on anything.
 
Now is actually the best time to start a new business.
It can only get better from here.

2.5 years on and there have been a few startups in our area, but a lot of places have gone out of business (and only very recently after struggling since the downturn three years ago) .
 
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