Slight acidic aftertaste on all homebrews

[latProd]

That Norwegian tap water is probably coming off of igneous mountains and has very little alkalinity. In addition, that rock could easily contribute metal ions such as iron and manganese. Both of those ions contribute a metallic flavor when present at very low concentration.

If the OP is brewing darker beers, using much crystal malt, or adding a lot of calcium salts, it is possible that the mash and wort pH are being driven too low. That low pH does echo into the finished beer pH and can be reflected as a tart flavor in the beer.

By the descriptions, the presence of iron and manganese needs to be assessed first. Are there rusty or black stains on plumbing fixtures? It also sounds like adding alkalinity to the brewing water may be needed in some cases. The first step in solving this problem will be to find out what is in your water. It does sound like a water problem.

I will have to do some research on how to get a water report from my area in some way, not sure how to go about this, but I will definately try. And yes, I do like to brew darker beers, you are spot on there.
I haven't checked any of the plumbing fixtures, I got a new kitchen installed when i bought the place two years ago, and lots of the plumbing in there has been replaced. Thank you for the informative reply. How do you go about raising alkalinity?

 

[latProd]

It doesn't look like this has been mentioned, but any chance you grind your grain in the same place that you brew? Lactic acid bacteria are naturally present on malt and grain dust in the air can be a source of lactobacillus contamination. This is a fairly common issue among brewers who grind and brew in the same space.

No, I just order the grains and have the guys at the brewshop grind them up for me. But I have seen many references to lactobacillus when googling this issue. But if that was the case, wouldn't the taste just get worse and worse with time?

 

[latProd]

Ok so I've managed to find some info on a city council site which lists some chemical properties of the water I use. Not sure what any of it means, but here goes. Apparently we have soft water in our area, if that makes a difference:

pH-value 7,40-7,90
Conductivity: 10,2-12 mS/m
Alcalinity: 0,60-0,80 mmol/l (millimol per liter, or something. Might be a norwegian term, sorry)

lime: 17 - 21 mg Ca/l
hardness: 2,4 – 3,0 ºdH

 

[biggmatt]

Your water is a bit basic. If it was lower than 7 it would be acidic. 8 is a decent base. 9 will clean your drains

 

[biggmatt]

try using distilled water. It is a perfect 7. No flavors, nothing

 

[latProd]

try using distilled water. It is a perfect 7. No flavors, nothing

The ironic thing is that any kind of water that you buy, be it bottled or distilled, costs a fortune over here. It's ridiculous. But I could do it once for testing purposes, ofcourse.

So maybe low PH in the mash is not a problem here... I will measure it anyway to be sure.

 

[joshesmusica]

where in norway are you? i'm living in stavanger, and I simply emailed the kommune and asked for a full water report. i posted it on here, and mabrungard helped with a lot of information. which is honestly who i would listen to on here above anybody else's advice (sorry everybody else who commented if you also happen to be a water expert).

i know plenty of people from a couple of different cities in norway that have been brewing with the tap water for a long time. no water adjustments. i will say that for stavanger i'm starting to wonder if it's too low ph for darker beers. i've brewed an oatmeal stout that had what i thought was fusels (because the temps got out of control for a short period of time). but then i brewed a black ipa that i know i had the temps under control the entire time, and it still had that biting flavor.
but in all of my paler ales, and especially my hop forward ales, they're turning out great on just tap water.

 

[latProd]

where in norway are you? i'm living in stavanger, and I simply emailed the kommune and asked for a full water report. i posted it on here, and mabrungard helped with a lot of information. which is honestly who i would listen to on here above anybody else's advice (sorry everybody else who commented if you also happen to be a water expert).

i know plenty of people from a couple of different cities in norway that have been brewing with the tap water for a long time. no water adjustments. i will say that for stavanger i'm starting to wonder if it's too low ph for darker beers. i've brewed an oatmeal stout that had what i thought was fusels (because the temps got out of control for a short period of time). but then i brewed a black ipa that i know i had the temps under control the entire time, and it still had that biting flavor.
but in all of my paler ales, and especially my hop forward ales, they're turning out great on just tap water.

Halla!
I live in Oslo, and overall the water quality is good where I live.
I used to brew with a couple of friends in another area of Oslo where the water kind of tastes like chloride, and for some reason, the beer never had that slightly acidic aftertaste. (Though overall I find my beers a lot better
Now that I brew by myself in another area, I've got this problem. And for some reason, like you said, bly Black Ipa has been the worst so far in that respect along with my Biere de Garde, which contains dark and crystal malts. I dont wanna fiddle with my water if I can avoid it, I just wanna get to the bottom of this.
I

 

[BigPerm]

No, I just order the grains and have the guys at the brewshop grind them up for me. But I have seen many references to lactobacillus when googling this issue. But if that was the case, wouldn't the taste just get worse and worse with time?

Maybe, but not necessarily. All depends on several factors: how much gets in, when, wort IBU, etc. This is clearly not your problem though, so just responding in the interest of providing information. Good luck with your problem!

Out of curiosity, have you tried adding small amounts of salts (CaCl2, CaSO4) to the glass, thus raising the pH and seeing if the acidic flavor subsides? If it does, and it's all a pH issue, that should be easy to fix with some of the advice you've gotten here.

 

[joshesmusica]

i'm sure others can chime in on this better than i can, but it sounds like the darker malts could be driving your (and mine) ph down a bit. i wonder if it would help to steep the darker malts separately from the mash?

 

[latProd]

Maybe, but not necessarily. All depends on several factors: how much gets in, when, wort IBU, etc. This is clearly not your problem though, so just responding in the interest of providing information. Good luck with your problem!

Out of curiosity, have you tried adding small amounts of salts (CaCl2, CaSO4) to the glass, thus raising the pH and seeing if the acidic flavor subsides? If it does, and it's all a pH issue, that should be easy to fix with some of the advice you've gotten here.

As in adding them to an actual glass of beer? Nope, never tried it, but interesting idea! How much is " a small amount?" and since I'm going to the shop today I can either pick up some CaCl2 or CaSO4. Which would be best suited for this?

 

[latProd]

i'm sure others can chime in on this better than i can, but it sounds like the darker malts could be driving your (and mine) ph down a bit. i wonder if it would help to steep the darker malts separately from the mash?

Never thought of that, wouldn't it impact the flavor profile?

 

[BigPerm]

Never thought of that, wouldn't it impact the flavor profile?

Low pH will accentuate the acrid character of the dark malts, which may explain some of your flavor notes. I add my dark malts as I start my sparge.

 

[joshesmusica]

it's just making a pale extract, and steeping your specialty grains.

 

[latProd]

Low pH will accentuate the acrid character of the dark malts, which may explain some of your flavor notes. I add my dark malts as I start my sparge.

Really? You add your dark malts that late? I've never heard of that practice before. I plan to do a no-sparge brew next time just for experimental purposes really, would it be an idea to add dark malts late in the mash perhaps?

 

[mabrungard]

The OP's water quality does appear to have the character I expected, relatively low alkalinity and hardness. That should be helpful for pale beer brewing since it reduces (but not eliminate) the need for mash acid addition. If brewing dark beers, some alkalinity may be needed since roast malts provide acids to the mash.

A relatively stable alternative for adding alkalinity to mashing water is baking soda (sodium bicarbonate). While it does add sodium, a brewer can usually add sufficient alkalinity without overdosing the overall wort with sodium since the sparging water doesn't receive baking soda treatment and will ultimately dilute the sodium content. The other alkalinity option is adding lime, but that alternative is not always accurate since lime purity can vary. Creating a solution of limewater (aka: kalkwasser) can be a more accurate way to supply alkalinity.

 

[mabrungard]

Adding roast malts late in the mash can help avoid an overly low mash pH and improve the taste of the roast components. However, that late addition does not keep the kettle wort pH from dropping lower than desirable. The beer can still be tart unless an alkali is added to either the mash (with all the roast malts) or in the kettle (if the late roast method is used).

You can't cheat chemistry.

 

[latProd]

The OP's water quality does appear to have the character I expected, relatively low alkalinity and hardness. That should be helpful for pale beer brewing since it reduces (but not eliminate) the need for mash acid addition. If brewing dark beers, some alkalinity may be needed since roast malts provide acids to the mash.

A relatively stable alternative for adding alkalinity to mashing water is baking soda (sodium bicarbonate). While it does add sodium, a brewer can usually add sufficient alkalinity without overdosing the overall wort with sodium since the sparging water doesn't receive baking soda treatment and will ultimately dilute the sodium content. The other alkalinity option is adding lime, but that alternative is not always accurate since lime purity can vary. Creating a solution of limewater (aka: kalkwasser) can be a more accurate way to supply alkalinity.

Thank you again, this is something i will definately look into, especially since i hardly ever brew pale beers these days. Now to figure out how much to add and when!

 

[joshesmusica]

Adding roast malts late in the mash can help avoid an overly low mash pH and improve the taste of the roast components. However, that late addition does not keep the kettle wort pH from dropping lower than desirable. The beer can still be tart unless an alkali is added to either the mash (with all the roast malts) or in the kettle (if the late roast method is used).

You can't cheat chemistry.

so going back to this thread:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=514482

and if i was doing this recipe:

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
0.20 kg Munich Malt (15.0 EBC) Grain 1 4.2 %
0.15 kg Chocolate Malt (1200.0 EBC) Grain 2 3.2 %
0.15 kg Chocolate Malt (689.5 EBC) Grain 3 3.2 %
0.10 kg Carafa II (811.6 EBC) Grain 4 2.1 %
0.10 kg Caramel Wheat Malt (120.0 EBC) Grain 5 2.1 %
3.00 kg Pilsner Liquid Extract (3.0 EBC) Extract 6 63.2 %
12.00 g Chinook [13.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 7 17.7 IBUs
12.00 g Pacific Gem [15.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 8 20.5 IBUs
15.00 g Chinook [13.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 9 8.0 IBUs
0.55 kg Sugar, Table (Sucrose) [Boil for 5 min]( Sugar 10 11.6 %
0.50 kg Extra Light Dry Extract [Boil for 1 min] Dry Extract 11 10.5 %
20.00 g Amarillo [9.20 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 25. Hop 12 7.3 IBUs
20.00 g Citra [12.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 20.0 Hop 13 8.3 IBUs
2.0 pkg Nottingham (Danstar #-) [23.66 ml] Yeast 14 -
20.00 g Amarillo [9.20 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days Hop 15 0.0 IBUs
20.00 g Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days Hop 16 0.0 IBUs


then should i be adding something to the boil? 25L batch. if i should be adding something could you give an approximate estimate of how much?

 

[xvgjvhj]

Are you doing anything to your water or checking your ph?

 

[BigPerm]

Adding roast malts late in the mash can help avoid an overly low mash pH and improve the taste of the roast components. However, that late addition does not keep the kettle wort pH from dropping lower than desirable. The beer can still be tart unless an alkali is added to either the mash (with all the roast malts) or in the kettle (if the late roast method is used).

You can't cheat chemistry.

This. Late additions give all the desired color but leave some of the more acrid components behind due to low residency times. However, I don't have problems with the kettle pH aspect, so I don't approach it from that angle and, as was stated above, is likely not a direct fix for your specific problem but may smooth out the flavor if you are noting acrid/burnt character from the roasted malts.

I think you'll have your answers once you do some pH measurements. Good luck!

 

[bu_gee]

and if i was doing this recipe:

...

if i should be adding something could you give an approximate estimate of how much?

He provides the worksheet on his website for free. You should be able to work it out for yourself.

 

[joshesmusica]

He provides the worksheet on his website for free. You should be able to work it out for yourself.

i tried. there were certain things missing from the water report that wouldn't allow the spreadsheet to do its thing. but from his comments on that thread he said that he assumed it to basically be like RO water.
which does help to know, i suppose, but i know nothing about chemistry, and especially not water chemistry, and therefore have no idea if i should be doing something to it according to which style i would brew.

 

[biggmatt]

Also you could just buy a small bottle of distilled and taste test side by side with tap. Is that the off flavor? Any small hints of it?

 

[jstraight]

I haven't read all posts in this thread but has anyone suggested 5.2 Mash pH Stabilizer? I have used it a couple of times but my water is good on it's own, so I didn't notice any change.
John

 

[latProd]

This. Late additions give all the desired color but leave some of the more acrid components behind due to low residency times. However, I don't have problems with the kettle pH aspect, so I don't approach it from that angle and, as was stated above, is likely not a direct fix for your specific problem but may smooth out the flavor if you are noting acrid/burnt character from the roasted malts.

I think you'll have your answers once you do some pH measurements. Good luck!

Thank you! I'm brewing on sunday and am gonna measure the PH in the mash then, see where I'm at. I'm also gonna try adding the dark malts late on and do a no-sparge mash as well and see where that gets me. Thanks for all the good advice!

 

[PhinneyWoodBrews]

Is your tap water treated with chlorine or chloramine? My early brews were afflicted with a metallic after taste-perhaps what you're calling acidic. I brewed with distilled water for a while, which eliminated this 'homebrew twang'. Now, I treat my local tap water(which is soft) with campden tablets, which dissipates chlorine and chloramine. Cheers

 

[latProd]

Is your tap water treated with chlorine or chloramine? My early brews were afflicted with a metallic after taste-perhaps what you're calling acidic. I brewed with distilled water for a while, which eliminated this 'homebrew twang'. Now, I treat my local tap water(which is soft) with campden tablets, which dissipates chlorine and chloramine. Cheers

I'm pretty sure most water is treated with chlorine, or so I thought?
I thought campden tablets were used for wine and stuff like that. Never heard of it being used in beer, but I'm not that familiar with it. When do you use it, and how much do you use for a 5 gallon batch, for example?

The only version of it I can find in my brewshop is this:

http://www.bryggselv.no/products/potassiumsulfite-vinoferm-campden-100g

 

[mabrungard]

I haven't read all posts in this thread but has anyone suggested 5.2 Mash pH Stabilizer?

I hate admitting this, but 5.2 would actually help avoid an extreme pH drop with respect to the OP's problem. But so would baking soda, and baking soda is probably a LOT less expensive.

 

[latProd]

I hate admitting this, but 5.2 would actually help avoid an extreme pH drop with respect to the OP's problem. But so would baking soda, and baking soda is probably a LOT less expensive.

So I can simply put a teaspoon (or whatever amount) of baking soda in the mash ? It's that simple?