Skipping traditional mashing?

[North_of_60]

I've been doing an overnight mash for my last three brews. It doesn't save any time, it just splits my brew day in two. I haven't noticed any negative effect on the finished beer. OG and FG are right in line with my calculations.

 

[odie]

I’ve heard of that. Brulosophy maybe? No real difference was found

 

[HB_ATL73]

I suspect that heat applied would make a portion of mash WAY hotter than enzyme destroying denaturing temp, so rapid and thorough mixing would have to be rigorously employed. Then there's the nothing that happens until your reach gelatinization temps anyway.

Dunno. Interesting thought.

Im new to BIAB method and have been using a propane burner to do multiple step mashes. Is what you are describing an issue that can be addressed with continual mixing? are there better ways to avoid this issue? removing/elevating grain in bag off of the bottom of the pot?

 

[RM-MN]

Im new to BIAB method and have been using a propane burner to do multiple step mashes. Is what you are describing an issue that can be addressed with continual mixing? are there better ways to avoid this issue? removing/elevating grain in bag off of the bottom of the pot?

The mash is way too thick for it to mix without stirring so I don't think that you can do step mashes without constant and vigorous stirring. Experiments by Brulosophy question whether there is a discernible difference between step mashing and single infusion. YMMV

 

[Nubiwan]

Enzymes do not suddenly denature at a specific temp. The way things work is that the enzymes are denaturing at all temps, but at lower temps they may take years to denature, so for all practical purposes they aren't denaturing. At some higher temp, it may take days for the enzymes to denature - still not an issue for mash times ~1 hr. At an even higher temp, it might take hours to denature, and at an even higher temp, it might take only minutes. When we get to denaturing only taking minutes, now we are in the temp range where denaturing can affect what's happening in the mash. Take the temp even higher, and the enzymes are gone in seconds.

I have never seen an exact definition of "denaturing temp," but it should be along the lines of "at the denaturing temp, one half of the enzymes have been denatured in xx minutes" where xx is in the range of 5 to 30 minutes. So, if you arbitrarily picked a 10 minute threshold, and half the "Z" enzyme was gone in 10 minutes at 151°F, then 151°F would be the "denaturing temp" for enzyme "Z". Then for "Z", half might be denatured in 20 minutes at 145°F, or half denatured at 5 minutes at 155°F.

And, as noted previously, once denatured they cannot be reactivated by lowering the temp.

Brew on

This potentially supports my two hour mash that started at 154 degrees, and ended up around 146. As far as I am concerned, I got all the benefits of both alpha and beta enzymes, and this was reflected in both taste ( at fermentor stage) and a lower FG than I experience with same grain bill mashed for 1 hour.

Note: don't regularly mash for 2 hour (plus in this case), but had to leave my mash unattended to drive kids around. Really am interested to see what this beer comes out lie, as it's petty much a repeat of a recipe I just did a month or two back. Why ABV will be a good 1% higher for a start.

 

[odie]

well been trying this my last several beers. So far not too bad a result. No complaints from my "consumers".

1. Fill kettle the night before, place basket in kettle 3/4" above element, attach controller temp probe to bottom of basket, place bag inside kettle, attach recic pump to kettle.
2. 0600hrs, turn 1500watt element on, controller set to 150' (probe at bottom of basket about 1" above element), mash in at ambient patio temps (South Texas seasonally dependant), stir mash well (no dough balls), recirc pump on, go shower, check temps (close to target), 0700hrs go to work.
3. 1700hrs, return from work, set controller "always on", 170-180' pump off, pull bag, hang and drain, remove basket, boil down to target volume, begin brewing clock.

I'm actually having to cut 1-2# of grain from my recipes. I'm getting ABVs above target so I can't drink as much . But a lot of that I think is from other efficiencies in my process. I'm basically down to almost zero wort waste from kettle to keg.

 

[Nubiwan]

well been trying this my last several beers. So far not too bad a result. No complaints from my "consumers".

1. Fill kettle the night before, place basket in kettle 3/4" above element, attach controller temp probe to bottom of basket, place bag inside kettle, attach recic pump to kettle.
2. 0600hrs, turn 1500watt element on, controller set to 150' (probe at bottom of basket about 1" above element), mash in at ambient patio temps (South Texas seasonally dependant), stir mash well (no dough balls), recirc pump on, go shower, check temps (close to target), 0700hrs go to work.
3. 1700hrs, return from work, set controller "always on", 170-180' pump off, pull bag, hang and drain, remove basket, boil down to target volume, begin brewing clock.

I'm actually having to cut 1-2# of grain from my recipes. I'm getting ABVs above target so I can't drink as much . But a lot of that I think is from other efficiencies in my process. I'm basically down to almost zero wort waste from kettle to keg.

What are you baking in that there kettle @odie? Just curious.

 

[balrog]

Mr. Murphy would never allow me to leave anything like @odie 's process going all day, pumping, unattended, without coming home to popped hoses spraying the garage or the element frying something and burning the garage down.

 

[broadbill]

BTW, some suggestions about the slow heating issue:

There are some ways you might speed this all up. One is to pull off a couple gallons of water once you've got it treated how you need it, and put it on your stove in a large pot or kettle, and heat that up separately. Or you could put a gallon each in a couple of pots and boil that on the stove, adding it back to the kettle.

But...I have to say, 1-2 hours to get the water just to 160 for mashing is indicative of other problems. How many gallons are you heating? I'd look into perhaps whether your element is truly putting out 1500 watts.

Another thing you can do is wrap your boil kettle with reflectix insulation. I have that on one of my BKs and it helps significantly. I couldn't believe I hadn't done that before.

Another possibility has to do with how cold your water is to start. If it's coming out of the tap at 55 degrees, say, perhaps the night before you draw off some water and let it warm up in the house. Or put a Fermwrap around the kettle to warm it up before you turn on the element. Or leave it on while you heat up the kettle....

As an experiment I've heated up water the night before in order to see how far it cooled down by morning when I wanted to brew. Depending on your setup and whether you can do this, you could heat up the night before, cover the kettle with a sleeping bag, and get a goodly head start on the heating the next day.

One other idea is to brew a smaller batch size....less water to get to mash temp. I do 4 gallon batches, I use a 1500 element, a reflectix insulated kettle and a recirculation pump and it takes maybe 30-40 minutes.

 

[odie]

I wonder about Mr Murphy too. I leave a bucket under the kettle spigot and the pump. But haven't had a hose pop yet...YET :O

It's all outside anyway. And Reflectix is my friend since I'm only running a 1500w at 110v