Skipping traditional mashing?

[odie]

What I’m talking about is instead of heating water to 160ish and stirring in the grain and waiting 60-90 minutes. How about just adding the grains to the room temp water as you begin to heat it up? By the time you reach mash out temps would all your conversion be done? Basically u are step mashing the whole time you would normally be heating the water to your initial strike temperature is my guess.

My system is 110v 1500 watt single element so it heats slowly. Bag is in a basket above the element. Takes about an hour or two to reach 160. I would just add a recirc pump to raise temps evenly.

Basically by the time I reach my usual mash in temp I’m now actually finished mashing and can skip the normal 1-2 hour mash pause and go straight to boil?

 

[Andrew Hodgson]

My setup is similar and I have thought about something like this instead of a traditional temp mash, haven't tried it yet but curious to see if some have.

 

[odie]

From what I recall the different mash steps are temperature “ranges”. And since my system raises temps slowly I would be in each step range for a while. Maybe 20-30 min per stage?

 

[balrog]

I suspect that heat applied would make a portion of mash WAY hotter than enzyme destroying denaturing temp, so rapid and thorough mixing would have to be rigorously employed. Then there's the nothing that happens until your reach gelatinization temps anyway.

Dunno. Interesting thought.

 

[odie]

I suspect that heat applied would make a portion of mash WAY hotter than enzyme destroying denaturing temp, so rapid and thorough mixing would have to be rigorously employed. Then there's the nothing that happens until your reach gelatinization temps anyway.

Dunno. Interesting thought.

Yeah that’s why I would want to incorporate a recirc pump to continuously keep the bottom temperature of the mash even with the middle and top. Allowing the entire mash to slowly increase in temperature thru each step range.

I’ll have to get smart on gelitization

 

[eric19312]

Check out this
http://brulosophy.com/2017/10/02/the-mash-single-infusion-vs-rising-temperature-exbeeriment-results/

I know it is common here to disregard anything that comes out of brulosophy but note they did see a significant result on this experiment and the way they test it is not easy or common to get a significant result. The beers must have been pretty different and preferences data was pretty clear in favor of doing the single infusion mash.

 

[mongoose33]

Have you ever run across this chart?

Down at lower temps you're going to be doing various rests, a protein rest, an acid rest, things like that. No conversion going on. I don't know off the top of my head what that will do to your beer--depends on recipe, pH, time, and it may or may not be desirable--but until you get to the point where the starch gelatinizes (as @balrog notes), no conversion is happening.

And as balrog also notes, you'll have to be very careful that the heating you do doesn't denature the enzymes.

*****

Something I've been toying with lately is mashing in at a step temp and bring the temp up to my targeted mash temps.

For instance, I might heat my strike water to 139 or so, and underlet the grain with that water. It'll drop the mash temp to about 132 or so. I let it sit there 10 minutes and then let my RIMS bring the mash temp up to 149 degrees.

Even then I'm not sure I shouldn't be doughing in at a higher temp. Starch, from what I can tell online, gelatinizes at between 136 and 143 degrees, so starting lower than 136 would appear to have little value. I'll probably bump that up a bit next time.

So--there's probably little harm in raising the temp gradually other than risking denaturing the enzymes with an overly hot heating element. I'm not sure it'll gain you much, as you'll probably be stirring and stirring instead of just letting the strike water heat while you get other things ready.

 

[Vale71]

Then there's the nothing that happens until your reach gelatinization temps anyway.

Except for the proteolytic enzimes doing their thing, of course.

 

[odie]

Check out this
http://brulosophy.com/2017/10/02/the-mash-single-infusion-vs-rising-temperature-exbeeriment-results/

I know it is common here to disregard anything that comes out of brulosophy but note they did see a significant result on this experiment and the way they test it is not easy or common to get a significant result. The beers must have been pretty different and preferences data was pretty clear in favor of doing the single infusion mash.

I recall that one. Didn’t seem to be a significant difference. Really would have to repeat the experiment multiple times to validate anything. And SG number would be interesting to see.

Just thinking about trying to reduce the time to brew and simplify the process. Just like going from 3V to BIAB...

 

[RPh_Guy]

Another possibility: Just cut the mash short and/or the boil short if you want to save time. 60 minutes isn't necessary for either.

Didn’t seem to be a significant difference. Really would have to repeat the experiment multiple times to validate anything. And SG number would be interesting to see.

Statistically significant -- yes.
Practically significant -- maybe. Try it yourself and see if you detect a difference and whether you prefer it. A thousand experiments couldn't determine whether you as an individual can tell them apart or which way you prefer.

They provided OG and FG for both beers in the exbeeriment.

Cheers

 

[mongoose33]

BTW, some suggestions about the slow heating issue:

There are some ways you might speed this all up. One is to pull off a couple gallons of water once you've got it treated how you need it, and put it on your stove in a large pot or kettle, and heat that up separately. Or you could put a gallon each in a couple of pots and boil that on the stove, adding it back to the kettle.

But...I have to say, 1-2 hours to get the water just to 160 for mashing is indicative of other problems. How many gallons are you heating? I'd look into perhaps whether your element is truly putting out 1500 watts.

Another thing you can do is wrap your boil kettle with reflectix insulation. I have that on one of my BKs and it helps significantly. I couldn't believe I hadn't done that before.

Another possibility has to do with how cold your water is to start. If it's coming out of the tap at 55 degrees, say, perhaps the night before you draw off some water and let it warm up in the house. Or put a Fermwrap around the kettle to warm it up before you turn on the element. Or leave it on while you heat up the kettle....

As an experiment I've heated up water the night before in order to see how far it cooled down by morning when I wanted to brew. Depending on your setup and whether you can do this, you could heat up the night before, cover the kettle with a sleeping bag, and get a goodly head start on the heating the next day.

 

[odie]

About 8 gallons. Haven’t really timed it to 160...guess I should. But it gets there and all the way to boil. Kettle is wrapped in reflective stuff. I just figured I could be mashing while heating?

 

[RPh_Guy]

About 8 gallons. Haven’t really timed it to 160...guess I should. But it gets there and all the way to boil. Kettle is wrapped in reflective stuff. I just figured I could be mashing while heating?

Without any heat loss (unrealistic), a 1500W element will take 70 minutes to heat 8 gallons from 70°F to 160°F.

That's why most homebrewers have 240V circuits and/or use propane.

 

[odie]

I chose 110v so I could use it anywhere. It will bring a full 15 gallon kettle to boil but it takes a while. 220v limits my options. I have burners but like the simplicity of electric.

If I was running 220v or propane I would still be contemplating the same basic idea...step mashing while heating to cut out the 1-2 hours I let it sit at 150 down to maybe only 20ish at 150 and then start the mash out. Just thinking another way to skin the cat

 

[RPh_Guy]

If I was running 220v or propane I would still be contemplating the same basic idea...step mashing while heating to cut out the 1-2 hours

I'm not so sure about that. A 5500W element would only take 19 minutes (without heat loss) and propane is similar, maybe 15-25 minutes (in practice).

 

[mongoose33]

I'm not so sure about that. A 5500W element would only take 19 minutes (without heat loss) and propane is similar, maybe 10-20 minutes (in practice).

I get about 3.5 degrees rise per minute with my setup (5500w element) heating 8.25 gallons. There is heat loss, of course, but that's well in line with your estimate. Figure 25 minutes to heat water from 70-160.

@odie, I know you're concerned about portability, but the biggest reasons I went with electric (there were several) were that I could let it heat without babysitting it, as I would have to do with propane, and speed.

The 240v power is so fast, and clean, and reliable, that I would never willingly go back to anything else.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I get about 3.5 degrees rise per minute with my setup (5500w element) heating 8.25 gallons. There is heat loss, of course, but that's well in line with your estimate. Figure 25 minutes to heat water from 70-160.

Scaling your heat loss linearly, heating 8.25 gal would take about 95 minutes on your system with a 1500W element.

Sorry, just geeking out with the math.

 

[odie]

Scaling your heat loss linearly, heating 8.25 gal would take about 95 minutes on your system with a 1500W element.

Sorry, just geeking out with the math.

Geek away. I haven’t timed it but that’s about what it seems on mine.

I guess what I’m asking is has anyone mashed in BIAB at warm temps and let the whole grain bill come up to 150ish or only wait until strike temps? Assuming their system won’t melt the bag. I’m wondering if done that way would if I would even need to hold it at 150 for a time or would it pretty much be ready for mash by then and just keep going with heat and pull the bag around 170 or so?

I’m seen many guys here claiming full starch conversion in only a few minutes with a single mash in at a 150 target (160 strike). Then some guys mash for 2 hours? For flavors I [emoji848].

 

[mongoose33]

Geek away. I haven’t timed it but that’s about what it seems on mine.

I guess what I’m asking is has anyone mashed in BIAB at warm temps and let the whole grain bill come up to 150ish or only wait until strike temps? Assuming their system won’t melt the bag. I’m wondering if done that way would if I would even need to hold it at 150 for a time or would it pretty much be ready for mash by then and just keep going with heat and pull the bag around 170 or so?

I’m seen many guys here claiming full starch conversion in only a few minutes with a single mash in at a 150 target (160 strike). Then some guys mash for 2 hours? For flavors I [emoji848].

There's at least one other reason to crush coarsely and do a mash that takes an hour (or even more). A very finely crushed malt will be subject to oxidation of the grain dust, which will mute flavors in the wort. So yes, while you can greatly accelerate conversion, it depends on what you are going for as to whether that's desirable.

 

[odie]

There's at least one other reason to crush coarsely and do a mash that takes an hour (or even more). A very finely crushed malt will be subject to oxidation of the grain dust, which will mute flavors in the wort. So yes, while you can greatly accelerate conversion, it depends on what you are going for as to whether that's desirable.

Ok. All the BIAB stuff I’ve heard is about doing a fine crush for efficiency. I’m double crushing. Now you’re saying it’s bad? Or am I missing something?

 

[mongoose33]

Ok. All the BIAB stuff I’ve heard is about doing a fine crush for efficiency. I’m double crushing. Now you’re saying it’s bad? Or am I missing something?

It depends on whether you buy into the low oxygen approach or not.

How's your beer taste? In the end, pleasing your palate is the goal.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I’m seen many guys here claiming full starch conversion in only a few minutes with a single mash in at a 150 target (160 strike). Then some guys mash for 2 hours? For flavors I

.

From my understanding, a negative starch test really doesn't mean much.
The relevant enzymes are active at saccharification temps for 2 hours+, and are modifying the sugar profile of the wort that entire time, tapering off as they degrade.
Also from what I've read, despite a negative test, there may still be starch present but not (yet) in solution.

Some beers I mash for 2 hours to make highly fermentable.

 

[eric19312]

I recall that one. Didn’t seem to be a significant difference. Really would have to repeat the experiment multiple times to validate anything. And SG number would be interesting to see.

Just thinking about trying to reduce the time to brew and simplify the process. Just like going from 3V to BIAB...

It was a clearly detectable difference. In addition to the statistically significant result from the triangle test The author/experimenter Matt Del Fiacco was able to pick the odd beer out in 4/5 blinded trials. Whether this difference was because of the weird gummy wort caramelization on the rising temp element or due to the dramatically different final gravities is not clear. Perhaps multiple experiments to verify the result would make the situation clearer and possibly it needs to be tested against different styles and see if perhaps it works fine for very dry IPAs and Saisons (some of the readers commented this is how Dupont Saison is made and possibly other big belgian beers) but really given the clear preference of panel and author for the beer made the traditional way how many of your own batches would you be willing to brew to further test the hypothesis?

Nothing wrong with looking for corners to cut that might simplify your brew day. As others suggested a short mash may be your answer. Skipping mash out is another option. You can always add a bit more grain if you are taking a small efficiency hit.

I also have a somewhat slower than ideal heating in my system and it takes 45-60 minutes to get my strike water to temp (typically 11-12 gallons). I brew on household low pressure natural gas with a banjo burner but I've maxed out flow to the burner and it is probably doing something like 50k btus. I've built my brew day around this issue. First thing I do on brew day is fill my kettle, add campden, and start heating it. Then I measure and add my salts and start recirculating the kettle to mix in the salts and give me a bright digital temp readout. Then I measure grains, crush grains, assemble mash tun and fabric filter. Get a cup of coffee. Measure and acidify sparge water. Calibrate my pH meter. Measure out hops. And bam just when I was thinking to review the recipe one more time my strike water is ready and it's time to get mashing.

 

[odie]

It depends on whether you buy into the low oxygen approach or not.

How's your beer taste? In the end, pleasing your palate is the goal.

U mean LODO? I think that’s what they call it. Nope. Never worried about that and the beer tastes fine and my friends readily drink it.

 

[odie]

From my understanding, a negative starch test really doesn't mean much.
The relevant enzymes are active at saccharification temps for 2 hours+, and are modifying the sugar profile of the wort that entire time, tapering off as they degrade.
Also from what I've read, despite a negative test, there may still be starch present but not (yet) in solution.

Some beers I mash for 2 hours to make highly fermentable.

So even if I mash in as it’s heating up I’m still gonna want it to sit a good long time at 150ish?

 

[Soulshine2]

What I’m talking about is instead of heating water to 160ish and stirring in the grain and waiting 60-90 minutes. How about just adding the grains to the room temp water as you begin to heat it up? By the time you reach mash out temps would all your conversion be done? Basically u are step mashing the whole time you would normally be heating the water to your initial strike temperature is my guess.

My system is 110v 1500 watt single element so it heats slowly. Bag is in a basket above the element. Takes about an hour or two to reach 160. I would just add a recirc pump to raise temps evenly.

Basically by the time I reach my usual mash in temp I’m now actually finished mashing and can skip the normal 1-2 hour mash pause and go straight to boil?

well, its funny you are asking this. An actual German traditional step mash (Ray Daniels) I'm reading about takes the grist in cold water for 5 hours then draw off the decoction and heat it to boil and add back to the mash tun to raise the temp to 95 *, wait/rest and repeat to raise it to 113, then again for 133, wait/rest once more then draw off and boil, to again raise the temp to around 146 and then a final lauter and sparge out at 160-170 .

 

[Soulshine2]

So even if I mash in as it’s heating up I’m still gonna want it to sit a good long time at 150ish?

depends on your recipe, could be 145, could be 154...or anywhere in between. You dont want to raise it so much that you denature the enzymes youre trying to create within the mash

 

[odie]

It was a clearly detectable difference. In addition to the statistically significant result from the triangle test The author/experimenter Matt Del Fiacco was able to pick the odd beer out in 4/5 blinded trials. Whether this difference was because of the weird gummy wort caramelization on the rising temp element or due to the dramatically different final gravities is not clear. Perhaps multiple experiments to verify the result would make the situation clearer and possibly it needs to be tested against different styles and see if perhaps it works fine for very dry IPAs and Saisons (some of the readers commented this is how Dupont Saison is made and possibly other big belgian beers) but really given the clear preference of panel and author for the beer made the traditional way how many of your own batches would you be willing to brew to further test the hypothesis?

Nothing wrong with looking for corners to cut that might simplify your brew day. As others suggested a short mash may be your answer. Skipping mash out is another option. You can always add a bit more grain if you are taking a small efficiency hit.

I also have a somewhat slower than ideal heating in my system and it takes 45-60 minutes to get my strike water to temp (typically 11-12 gallons). I brew on household low pressure natural gas with a banjo burner but I've maxed out flow to the burner and it is probably doing something like 50k btus. I've built my brew day around this issue. First thing I do on brew day is fill my kettle, add campden, and start heating it. Then I measure and add my salts and start recirculating the kettle to mix in the salts and give me a bright digital temp readout. Then I measure grains, crush grains, assemble mash tun and fabric filter. Get a cup of coffee. Measure and acidify sparge water. Calibrate my pH meter. Measure out hops. And bam just when I was thinking to review the recipe one more time my strike water is ready and it's time to get mashing.

Not really trying to cut corners or skip anything. Just thinking maybe start the mashing process as I’m heading towards my target mash temp (about 150) so that I don’t need to stop and hold for 1-2 hours at 150 before ramping up to mash out temps...

so that I only need a brief pause at 150 for maybe 20-30 minutes to finish up the conversion

or maybe not even pause the heating as it will be a good 20 or 30 min to pass thru the 140-160 range on my wimpy kettle...

 

[mongoose33]

U mean LODO? I think that’s what they call it. Nope. Never worried about that and the beer tastes fine and my friends readily drink it.

Yeah, I mean LODO. I was just trying to not trigger anyone with the acronym, but too late now.

I do LODO techniques and I believe there's something to the approach--at least, I've produced flavors that are shockingly richer than traditional mash approaches. My comment was only this: that there are reasons to not crush the grain to dust, among them LODO considerations and avoiding a stuck mash (though that's less an issue in BIAB).

 

[eric19312]

Not really trying to cut corners or skip anything. Just thinking maybe start the mashing process as I’m heading towards my target mash temp (about 150) so that I don’t need to stop and hold for 1-2 hours at 150 before ramping up to mash out temps...

so that I only need a brief pause at 150 for maybe 20-30 minutes to finish up the conversion

or maybe not even pause the heating as it will be a good 20 or 30 min to pass thru the 140-160 range on my wimpy kettle...

What I would try in this case is heating the strike water enough to dough in at 140. Then start your temp ramp and like you say don't even pause. Just go from 140 to 170 over course of 60 minutes (with constant recirculation) and sparge. I suspect that weird gunk Matt got on his element had to do with something that happened during the room temp to 140 time frame. You will still need to stop briefly to dough in and verify circulation before turning on the element again but you were going to have to dough in at some point anyway.

 

[odie]

What I would try in this case is heating the strike water enough to dough in at 140. Then start your temp ramp and like you say don't even pause. Just go from 140 to 170 over course of 60 minutes (with constant recirculation) and sparge. I suspect that weird gunk Matt got on his element had to do with something that happened during the room temp to 140 time frame. You will still need to stop briefly to dough in and verify circulation before turning on the element again but you were going to have to dough in at some point anyway.

Think that’s about what I’m gonna try. I’ll pick something I’ve already done at 150/1-2hrs and compare to dough in warm and pull at 170 with no stopping the heat and compare SG and OG numbers. See if conversion yields similar results

 

[applescrap]

What I’m talking about is instead of heating water to 160ish and stirring in the grain and waiting 60-90 minutes. How about just adding the grains to the room temp water as you begin to heat it up? By the time you reach mash out temps would all your conversion be done? Basically u are step mashing the whole time you would normally be heating the water to your initial strike temperature is my guess.

My system is 110v 1500 watt single element so it heats slowly. Bag is in a basket above the element. Takes about an hour or two to reach 160. I would just add a recirc pump to raise temps evenly.

Basically by the time I reach my usual mash in temp I’m now actually finished mashing and can skip the normal 1-2 hour mash pause and go straight to boil?

Haha, beat you to it Man I got hammered when I started the exact same thread. I mean, makes sense right. Kill two birds with one stone. I cant recall if Marshall already had the test in the works or I asked him to try, but I think it was in the works when I asked. Anyways he tested it and the results weren't that great. It takes longer to heat up so it really didn't save time iirc and the results weren't great, but hope you try it. Man I got insulted every which way but loose iirc. Glad there are others who are thinking out the box. That's how we grow. So glad you started this and look forward to seeing where it leads. I think I called it rising mash.

 

[BandonBrewingCo]

If you like to start early why not fill the kettle the night before and plug it into a timer plug to start an hour or so before you want to mash in? That way you wake up, grab a coffee and dough in straight away.

 

[odie]

Haha, beat you to it Man I got hammered when I started the exact same thread. I mean, makes sense right. Kill two birds with one stone. I cant recall if Marshall already had the test in the works or I asked him to try, but I think it was in the works when I asked. Anyways he tested it and the results weren't that great. It takes longer to heat up so it really didn't save time iirc and the results weren't great, but hope you try it. Man I got insulted every which way but loose iirc. Glad there are others who are thinking out the box. That's how we grow. So glad you started this and look forward to seeing where it leads. I think I called it rising mash.

Hammered like the first BIABers ??? People resist new ideas and change. I don’t think anyone has mentioned actually done it before...screw It I’m doin it next batch...lol

I guess what I’m really proposing is a continuously inclining mash??? Meaning no real steps (rise, pause,rise,pause) but a slow but steady incline of temps through the temp range of each traditional “step”. My kettle the element is not in direct contact with the mash and if I recirc constantly the mash should be evenly heated without any hot spots...I think

 

[odie]

If you like to start early why not fill the kettle the night before and plug it into a timer plug to start an hour or so before you want to mash in? That way you wake up, grab a coffee and dough in straight away.

Would like to do that but don’t have a temp controller for the kettle. I have a timer so I could guess the start time to be at mash in when I’m ready. I fill the night before so I just flip the switch when I get up...after coffee n breakfast tacos I’m close to mash in anyway.

 

[Beernik]

Back to the original question,

Personally, I’d avoid the Phytase enzyme range unless I was intentionally doing an acid mash. But I don’t see much downside to mashing-in at 122F with a protein rest and doing a gradual temperature raising from there. The main problem will be repeatability. If you care about that, you’ll want to chart your temperature curve.

Also keep in mind that beta enzymes are slower than alpha enzymes. So 10 minutes between 130F and 150F is not the same as 10 minutes between 150F and 170F.

 

[odie]

Damn u Phytase...now I must google you...

I was thinking to start mashing in around 100ish and let it ride to 170 and pull the bag.

My system can’t go +20’ in 10 min...maybe 20-30 min? Guess I need do a dry run...I mean wet run...lol and time it. 10-15 pounds of grain will no doubt change the rate of temp increase as well

 

[Qhrumphf]

Reportedly (according to the book "Farmhouse Ales" at least) Brasserie Dupont mashes Saison Dupont starting cool and using a slow continuous ramp up to mash out. It can certainly be done.

But as others have said, you have other enzymes doing things in those lower temp ranges.

Basically I wouldn't try it attempting it as a timesaver. But if I wanted to try it for a Saison, or a Brut IPA, or something else that I wanted super-dry, I might give it a shot.

 

[Beernik]

The other thought I had about this idea is the conversion you get it is also going to be dependent upon the diastatic power of the grain bill. If the DP > 100L, like a pale ale or Pilsner, you probably don’t have any worries. However, like any other type of mash, if the DP is in the 70L - 90L range (like a Wit with unmalted wheat), you’ll want to slow down the rate of the temperature rise to give the enzymes more time to work.

 

[odie]

Reportedly (according to the book "Farmhouse Ales" at least) Brasserie Dupont mashes Saison Dupont starting cool and using a slow continuous ramp up to mash out. It can certainly be done.

But as others have said, you have other enzymes doing things in those lower temp ranges.

Basically I wouldn't try it attempting it as a timesaver. But if I wanted to try it for a Saison, or a Brut IPA, or something else that I wanted super-dry, I might give it a shot.

Interesting. I’m actually thinking trying this on a saison...why? I was digging thru my bin of yeast and found a couple saison packs and wondering where the heck I got these??? Never made one before...packs are a year old though [emoji848] toss both in and see what comes of it?

 

[mongoose33]

Damn u Phytase...now I must google you...

I was thinking to start mashing in around 100ish and let it ride to 170 and pull the bag.

My system can’t go +20’ in 10 min...maybe 20-30 min? Guess I need do a dry run...I mean wet run...lol and time it. 10-15 pounds of grain will no doubt change the rate of temp increase as well

Wow! Someone on the internet whose stock response isn't "What is Phytase?" Instead you actually own your education and google it.