Single Decoction Question

[Sjt_71]

I'm planning to brew a Helles lager this weekend and would like to do a single decoction.
I've had good results with German style lagers using a step mash at 122F, 140F, and 156F. I would like to improve upon that method with a single decoction to achieve mash-out at 168F.
My grain bill is (3 gal batch):

5lbs Pils malt
.2lbs Melanoidin
1.0 oz Hallertau

Is the 122F rest really necessary with Avengard pils malt? There are whole threads on this, I know, but an experienced opinion is always welcome.

Would a better schedule for this malt be something like a two-step mash with a rest at 130F, then 156F?

I understand more melanoidins are produced with a decoction. Should I consider omitting the .2lbs melanoidin with a single decoction or will it be a nice addition to the maltiness of the beer?

 

[didinho]

I'm planning to brew a Helles lager this weekend and would like to do a single decoction.

I do single decoction with 140F step for protein rest (10 minutes), 64°C (148F) then I boil 1/3 of the mash to achieve 72°C (160F).
I use 20% munich malt, 80% pils for helles, and I get enough melanoidins trought decoction to achieve a full malty taste with this mash.

with a decoction instead of a simple two-step mash you also get a bit more efficiency

 

[Spartan1979]

From what I've gathered, doing a decoction just for mash out isn't going to do that much for you. You want a thin mash for that.

If I do a decoction, I usually mash in around 142 and then use a decoction to raise it to around 156.

 

[Gavin C]

I'm planning to brew a Helles lager this weekend and would like to do a single decoction.
I've had good results with German style lagers using a step mash at 122F, 140F, and 156F. I would like to improve upon that method with a single decoction to achieve mash-out at 168F.
My grain bill is (3 gal batch):

5lbs Pils malt
.2lbs Melanoidin
1.0 oz Hallertau

Is the 122F rest really necessary with Avengard pils malt? There are whole threads on this, I know, but an experienced opinion is always welcome.

Would a better schedule for this malt be something like a two-step mash with a rest at 130F, then 156F?

I understand more melanoidins are produced with a decoction. Should I consider omitting the .2lbs melanoidin with a single decoction or will it be a nice addition to the maltiness of the beer?

I'm very inexperienced when it comes to decoctions (just did my second one at the weekend with a technique very similar to what @Spartan1979
is decribing). I did however get a good result with a Munich Helles recently. I did incorporate a protein rest using Belgian Pils but no decoction.

If you interested, more detail on the recipe and mash profile can be seen here.

 

[Sjt_71]

From what I've gathered, doing a decoction just for mash out isn't going to do that much for you. You want a thin mash for that.

If I do a decoction, I usually mash in around 142 and then use a decoction to raise it to around 156.

I've read on braukaiser.com that a single decocotion to achieve mashout from the 150's is quite common and well suited to modern european pils malts. I would imagine it would be just as effective as a single decoction from 140ish to 155?

 

[wobdee]

Look up "Schmitz Decoction" it a single decoction that boils most the grain in one step and produces similar results as a double or triple decoction with half the time.

 

[BigEd]

Skip the 122F. Try 128F/148f/168F.

 

[Sjt_71]

Skip the 122F. Try 128F/148f/168F.

Big Ed, what kind of results can one expect from this schedule? Would this yield a result closer to a Munich-style Helles?

 

[BigEd]

Big Ed, what kind of results can one expect from this schedule? Would this yield a result closer to a Munich-style Helles?

I just think it makes more sense. There's plenty out there who will argue against even doing a decoction, and, in the sense that it isn't necessary to brew this beer they're right. You could skip the whole decoction thing and still make a very nice beer. However, IMO there are some subtleties of flavor, color, and texture that are just not obtainable by any other method. That is particularly true with a Helles and many other German/Continental styles.

Anyways, with that said one of the big arguments with the don't-do-a-decoction segment in homebrewing is that you can or will overly degrade the peptide fractions with a decoction, especially with today's malts. By raising the first step up to the end of that temperature stage and into the beginning of the beta stage those problems are reduced. I think it also helps simplify the process as a +20F temperature rise is just about what you should expect with a typical decoction, making thing easier to keep track of for a beginner. I also like a main rest for all German lagers at a fairly low temp and for my tastes 148F works well. One of the things I get in my favorite German brews are a great rich flavor in the body combined with a clean, dry, trailing finish. I almost never find it in domestically brewed versions of the styles but I can get pretty close homebrewing.

 

[Sjt_71]

Thanks Big Ed for the reply. That definitely helps clarify the process for me. I'm looking for that maltiness that is so prevalent in German lagers but have not been ready for the decoction method.
That being said, if I were to decoct a portion of the 148F mash, what kind of ratio of grains to water would I look for? I've read that a single decoction to achieve mash-out should be a little thinner than a typical decoction. Is this accurate?

 

[BigEd]

Thanks Big Ed for the reply. That definitely helps clarify the process for me. I'm looking for that maltiness that is so prevalent in German lagers but have not been ready for the decoction method.
That being said, if I were to decoct a portion of the 148F mash, what kind of ratio of grains to water would I look for? I've read that a single decoction to achieve mash-out should be a little thinner than a typical decoction. Is this accurate?

It can be since by going to mash out you're going to denature the enzymes anyway but I'd still suggest going with a thick, less liquid pull at any step.