Simple eHERMS, following PJ's diagram w/ only 1 PID.

[P-J]

I thought I had read somewhere that the reason for using relays was to prevent 240V from passing through the switch which could be a safety issue in the case of a switch failure. But I can't find that, I must have been mistaken, so I'll defer to your expertise. Thanks.

You are absolutely correct in your observation. The switch generally referred to is a single pole unit, much like a SSR that switches one phase of 240V power. When the circuit is open, 120V is still available within the entire circuit. (On the element). A double pole switch or a 2 pole relay eliminated the issue.

Hey, keep questioning 'stuff'..! Knowledge is power and that leads to the safe handling of it. (pun intended - power)

Thank You.!

 

[Spartan1979]

You could absolutely do that. (A caviot though: I'd use RTD probes instead of type K if you are going to switch probes.)

But why bother with that. On your first brew (You will be watching it like a hawk anyway) determine the % power needed for a "decent" boil. Dial that in when you do your subsequent batches. This way you will be in set it & forget it mode. Plus you will save some money and a lot of grief setting up a second sensor and the switching for it.

Just saying.

Edit for another thought: If you want to do the sensor change, I'm game. This way I'll draw the diagram for you and then we can all learn from your results. Seriously..!! I'm game.

So, what type of switch would I use to change both the elements and the probes at the same time?

 

[P-J]

You could use this Switch to accomplish the task. It is a 4 pole - double throw - center off unit. I do not like the idea of using it as you are mixing control voltages and raw power in the same unit. Nothing wrong with that - but.. The additional thing I'd do with it is to set up an insulated barrier between the power and temp terminals on the switch. (For additional peace of mind.) Also, do not use this setup with type K temp probes.

 

[Spartan1979]

I do not like the idea of using it as you are mixing control voltages and raw power in the same unit. Nothing wrong with that - but..

Wouldn't putting a relay in the heater circuit eliminate that concern? While I do want to make this work without spending unnecessary funds, I'm not looking to do it as cheaply as possible at the expense of safety and reliability.

 

[P-J]

You could do that as well. If it were mine to do, I'd just set up an insulating barrier between the control half and the power half of the switch. This would give me all the peace of mind I'd need.

 

[Feckett]

Your setup is exactly what I have been looking for. Question was between your 2 wiring diagrams. In the first one, you had mechanical relays (or so it looked) between the switches turning on the actual elements. In the revised version these are gone with the 3 way DPDT switch.
Any concerns on safety here? Since this switch is carrying the power to the elements, rather than kicking over a relay?
Trying to get all my ducks in a row before tackling my orders.

Disregard, after combing back through the posts this has been covered. This is such an informative thread, I like how many detailed quesions are being answered.

 

[P-J]

Feckett,

Let me know if I can help.

P-J

 

[snackson]

I'm starting my build similar to this one tomorrow. I was going to build a Kal clone but just found out that the wife is pregnant with triplets so I had to cut way back on budget and stop buying all sorts of parts. We were planning on one but are blessed with three which means funding for brewing is almost non-existant now. Luckily I had previously purchased PID, RTD, SSR, receptacles, etc. Just bought the last parts today. I do have some extra stuff as I was debating on running a RIMS instead of a HERMS but plan on selling that stuff once build is complete. Pics to follow.

 

[Squeeky]

Congrats snackson, my control panel is built just waiting for some more vacation to work on HLT and BK.

 

[wedge421]

"simple"...hmm. I wish

 

[acefaser]

Squeeky and PJ -
Thanks for the great electrical schematic. I am looking at building this design and was wondering what the best way to incorporate the temp probes into the switch. The 4 pole DT has been mentioned, but doesn't seem to be the best choice. Is there a way to put in relays after the DPDT switch to have the correct thermocouple information displayed on the PID with the DPDT switch position? I could just add another switch for the temp probes, but I can see the day that I forget to switch it and it reads the wrong probe.

 

[P-J]

Squeeky and PJ -
Thanks for the great electrical schematic. I am looking at building this design and was wondering what the best way to incorporate the temp probes into the switch. The 4 pole DT has been mentioned, but doesn't seem to be the best choice. Is there a way to put in relays after the DPDT switch to have the correct thermocouple information displayed on the PID with the DPDT switch position? I could just add another switch for the temp probes, but I can see the day that I forget to switch it and it reads the wrong probe.

I have some concerns with this as it could complicate your build a little bit. It certainly can be done and there are a few ways to accomplish the task. So with that said, lets look at the options:

With the setup as shown (Post #6 in this thread), there is no real need to have a temp probe in the boil kettle. With that said, the probe remains in the HLT to manage the strike water temp. If you are using a cooler for the MASH tun it's a done deal. On the other hand, if you are using a kettle for the mash, recirculating HLT temp controlled water is a must. A HERMS coil would be used for that. Both of these methods require the temp probe to be in the HLT.

Now we move to the next step. Wort is transferred to the BOIL kettle and brought to the boil. The PID requires a temp probe to be connected for it to function. No problem - it's still in the HLT and once the boil comes to a boil you use the PID in manual mode to set the percent of power to control the boil. Temperature? Keep in mind that a raging boil has a temperature of 212°F and a simmer boil also has a temperature of 212°F. Thus the use of manual mode as a temp probe does not enter into the process.

Ok... Maybe a reason for wanting a probe in the boil kettle. To monitor chilling the wort when using an immersion chiller. Ok. I can do that, But, I do not like the idea of using a 4 pole switch to accomplish this task along with switching the power to the elements. There is another way.

Buy this Cube Relays QM4N1-A120 and the Socket SQM14D.

It is a 4 pole double throw - low current relay. It should be energized whenever the element switch is set to the BOIL kettle. Another detail - because you are switching temp probes, I strongly recommend that you use RTD probes for this task - thus (3 wire probe) the 4 pole double throw relay. (Plus the probes are a lot easier to mount in the kettles)

When switch #1 is set to HLT or CENTER OFF the PID uses the temp probe in the HLT. When switch #1 is set to BOIL, the relay energizes and transfers to the RTD probe in the boil kettle. HOWEVER this is not going to work for you for chilling as the BOIL element is energized. One more switch is required to open one of the PID to SSR lines so that you can drop the power to the boil element.

So in summary: This becomes a complex issue. It can be done - no sweat - but I'd like you to think about it a little bit. Then if you really want to go this route, please let me know and I'll come up with a modified diagram for you.

What do you think? Or maybe you have another reason for requiring a second temp probe. I'd like to know. Help me help you.

P-J

 

[Squeeky]

I just wanted to chime in on the thread. For anyone who has been following, control panel is finished just waiting to have vacation in order to work on the rest.

With the housing market sh!t, our condo has been on the market for over 8mos. Once it sells we will have a home which allows brewing again. I'm also looking for new career in beer, anyone with pointers on getting hired in beer sales/brewery rep shoot me a PM. So far over 10 resume submissions with a successful sales background and zero responses

 

[P-J]

Chris,

I just want to wish you every possible success.
This very old man is very upset with the BS that is going on now in the world.
My heart simply aches.

Paul

 

[passedpawn]

I just wanted to chime in on the thread. For anyone who has been following, control panel is finished just waiting to have vacation in order to work on the rest.

With the housing market sh!t, our condo has been on the market for over 8mos. Once it sells we will have a home which allows brewing again. I'm also looking for new career in beer, anyone with pointers on getting hired in beer sales/brewery rep shoot me a PM. So far over 10 resume submissions with a successful sales background and zero responses

So you chose not to reveal your location. That's too bad, there are opportunities now.

 

[Squeeky]

HaHa, I just realized it doesn't list my location. I currently live in the Dayton, OH area. Work roughly an hour away in Cincinnati as Retail Sales Manager with FranklinCovey. I've been with them for almost nine years, worked my way up from seasonal, to running one of the most profitable location in the company. However other locations haven't done so well and we have been closing location every quarter. Although I manage a retail location, we also assume the role of outside sales, business dev., as well as run public and private training seminars.

In the past nine years, I can honestly I've only gone to work a few days. I don't consider it work as I'm passionate about helping others achieve success. I want to have that same feeling in a new career that why I've been looking into Brewery Rep / Sales Position.

Since I just spent two paragraphs plugging my job search. I'll mention I am willing to relocate for the same passion but have applied for rep jobs with Stone and Darkhorse as well a sales jobs with many local distributors.

Hell feel free to buy my condo to: http://www.sibcycline.com/viewlisti...chResults&a=3225-Fantasia-Trl-Dayton-OH-45449

*Warning* Association not brewer friendly, no outside burners

I realize this post has nothing to do with the thread, but other then listening to TBN podcast on the my drive I haven't talked brewing for awhile.

 

[acefaser]

P-J - thanks, I just thought it would be nice to have the temp probe in the boil kettle so you can set an alarm prior to boil and monitor the temp on the PID. I guess if the temp probe's quick disconnects are universal I could just disconnect it at the probe and transfer it to the boil kettle once the mash/sparge is complete. I really like this design and think it is the more practical way to build a control panel.

Squeeky - feel your pain... lived in Dayton (Huber Heights) for 8 years and was lucky to sell my house 4 years ago. My friend in Akron rents his house out now because he couldn't sell it. Good luck selling your place. Come out to Colorado - lots of beer and better weather. Got any pics of that panel?

 

[Squeeky]

Went to father-in-laws for Easter today, spent 20min eating and 2hr playing with this control panel.

I had yet to test the control panel completely as it's wired for twist lock input and father-in-law ran a GFCI outlet for his generator. Everything tested great, except for the fact I only purchased 1A fast blow fuses. I overlooked the fact that outlets used 10A not 1A A little google search and I found the march pump uses 1.4A, no wonder I had the issue. Going to pick up some 10A and extra 1As. Atleast I know the fuses work!

 

[Squeeky]

Holy Silver Solder Batman

Guess who finally did more work on his brewery --- this guy.

Today I got to use my new $10 HF angle grinder, but through keg like butter. Also used a flapper disc to smooth edges, worked great. Also picked up supplies to polish with same grinder.

I also got to use my dimple keg tool, it was AMAZING. I highly recommend it made things so easy. I got three couples pulled through and soldered. Herms coil coiled, but purchased wrong 90degree adapters Going to have to finish later.

I have yet to drill for elements, HF step bit was sucking so I purchased unibit. Hopefully it will hold up for 3-4 1 1/8th holes. HF bit got about 6 holes before it died, even using cutting oil.

I tested control box, PID is reading 10degrees hotter the other thermos, I will look into how to adjust.

In two more visits I should have it finished, I hate not being able to sell this condo and move. Got to bring the dog back home until we get a showing.

Ill update with pics once complete.

 

[Squeeky]

Still have a little work to do, make the dip tubes and clean and sanatize but I think the next trip I make. I'll do a gal test batch!

 

[JRems]

Update?

 

[Squeeky]

Well its been completed for several months, however being that everything is located an hour away I've only brewed two 11gal batches. If I did it all over again, I would mount the pump in a separate enclosure. It's nice that I can just pick it up and go, but I get worried when changing camlocks that liquid will get in. However just over paranoid because there has not been any issues.

As for the diagram and only using 1 PID, it works flawlessly! If your on a budget and want clean and simple you can't go wrong.

 

[mizzourah]

I have been scouring the forums for some help on a set up like this...

First off, I am definitely no electrician but my father has some experience and we are both pretty handy.

I've got a couple of questions. I found this diagram from P-J on the forums, is there any way someone could show me how I would wire in a key switch into this. I do not want one of the kids to accidentally turn it on.

http://www.pjmuth.org/beerstuff/images/Auberin-wiring1-a17c-SYL-2352-5500w.jpg

Another quick question, I found this on eBay and was thinking that I could maybe monitor the MT without having to purchase another PID but still have an electrical display...but again I'm no electrician and I don't want to ruin any of the hardware that I am purchasing.

eBay - New & used electronics, cars, apparel, collectibles, sporting goods & more at low prices

P-J all of your diagrams are outstanding, I know I am learning a lot from the all and I really appreciate all the help you've given us (even if yo didn't know it!!)

 

[P-J]

I have been scouring the forums for some help on a set up like this...

First off, I am definitely no electrician but my father has some experience and we are both pretty handy.

I've got a couple of questions. I found this diagram from P-J on the forums, is there any way someone could show me how I would wire in a key switch into this. I do not want one of the kids to accidentally turn it on.

http://www.pjmuth.org/beerstuff/images/Auberin-wiring1-a17c-SYL-2352-5500w.jpg

Another quick question, I found this on eBay and was thinking that I could maybe monitor the MT without having to purchase another PID but still have an electrical display...but again I'm no electrician and I don't want to ruin any of the hardware that I am purchasing.

eBay - New & used electronics, cars, apparel, collectibles, sporting goods & more at low prices

P-J all of your diagrams are outstanding, I know I am learning a lot from the all and I really appreciate all the help you've given us (even if yo didn't know it!!)

Installing a key switch will require the addition of a contactor as the switch cannot carry the full current load.

The temperature module certainly can be used. Keep in mind that it requires a 24V DC power source. You also need to secure another RTD temperature probe to use it.

 

[dedicatedx]

Squeeky and PJ,

So just to confirm, can you use the switches from the 4500W diagram with the 5500W one?

I'm very close to starting my build.

 

[Squeeky]

Yeppers, brewed a Dale's Pale Ale over the weekend. It was nice to be brewing again! The switch will handle the 30A just fine. One thing you want to ensure though is a good solid connection. Soldering would be your best route. I went with ratcheting crimper, if I did it all over again I would solder things directly.

 

[Squeeky]

Another thing I would change, is to buy a second RTD. Even in manual mode the PID requires a probe connection. During boil I will typically clean my HLT and MT, which having the probe connected can be an issue.

 

[JoshAZ]

This is great!! I think that I am going to build mine off of this with the two pumps!

Had one questions could I put the RDT in the heat exchanger coil return line? or is it better to monitor the MLT with it own thermometer? So i will know what the HLt temp is at?

 

[P-J]

This is great!! I think that I am going to build mine off of this with the two pumps!

Had one questions could I put the RDT in the heat exchanger coil return line? or is it better to monitor the MLT with it own thermometer? So i will know what the HLt temp is at?

I'd suggest placing it in the HLT. The same temp of the HLT will be transferred to the HERMS coil as long as the HLT water is kept in motion.
Bottom line - '0' difference in temp. You will have a degree (or 2) difference due to line loss between the HLT and the MASH.

(Unless I'm totally misunderstanding your question..)

IMHO... Sorry...

 

[JoshAZ]

I was just thinking it would be easier to put it in the line vs a hole in the kettle.

I am sure I will have questions as I start to order and build.

Thanks P-J