Simple eHERMS, following PJ's diagram w/ only 1 PID.

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Squeeky

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First off I would like to thank PJ, he truely is a genuine person. Back in 06' he helped me get started with my ebrewery which I never completed due to several issues beyond my control. Now I'm back at it :)

If I'm understanding this diagram correctly it will give me a very simple control panel, which will allow me to control 1 of 2 elements at a time. My question really is, do I need a second PID. I have yet to brew with a HERMs setup, but my understanding is a second PID would monitor MT output, while the first would control the Temp in the HLT. Since my setup will not be 100% automated, couldn't one just montior the temp in mash, and either increase/decrease flow through HERMS, or +/- temp in HLT to reach proper mash temp.

Once mash completed, it would just be a matter of switching PID to BK. Also from what I have read a temp probe is not needed when boiling as it is the duty cycle that controls the boil, is this correct?

I have to plan everything out and currently all my brewing items are over an hour away (damn conodo assoc.).

*I realize the diagram does not show temp probe leads, but they would be ran as well
 

P-J

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Just discovered your thread. Thanks for your kind words.

You really only need a single PID. (Unless you intend to do back to back brews)

The temp probe would be placed in the HLT and there is no need to move it. You are correct that for the boil you would switch PID mode to percent of power delivered. The temp probe must still be connected for the PID to function, but it can stay in the HLT. No need to move it.

For the mash: Just monitor your HLT temp and circulate the HLT water through the mash. You will probably lose a degree or 2 at most. You will know the loss differential on your first brew session. I'd just use a standard thermomemeter to measure the mash temp during you first few sessions. Once you know the loss, you can adjust your HLT temp accordingly. Actually you will know within 5 minutes on your first session.

If you are using a cooler type of mash tun, there is no need to do recirculation at all.

If you use a keg or kettle type mash tun recirculation helps compensate for heat losses through the kettle walls. It also keeps the entire mash at your target temp. I suggest that you keep your hose line lengths reasonably short as this also helps minimize heat loss. You also would want to recirculate your mash through the HERMS coil for the entire mash time. Keep the flow at a reasonable rate so that you do not compact the mash bed.

I know you know all of this, but I hope it makes sense and helps.

P-J
 
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Squeeky

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Well after much consideration and debate I'm going to continue with this setup. I had debated using my current Omega PID w/o manual control and a 555 timer circuit to control the BK. This would save on cost, but add aditional room for wiring error. I plan on building this control panel into a toolbox as I would love the ability to make things portable.

Thanks again P-J for all your input, now it's time to start collecting parts.
 

P-J

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Just sent you an e-mail. I hope you still have that address.
I think I can save you some $'s with a wiring design change.

Hope to hear from you.
 

shuie

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This very similar to my build. Lots of help from PJ on mine, too. Help from Tiber, the Simple, TwentE2, concepts as well :)

I also have two vessels, but I'm using a single heating element and a single pump. My HLT doubles as my BK and I recirculate my mash and recirculating the mash through a HEX coil that sits in HLT/BK. My MLT doubles as an ice water tank and I swap the HEX coil over to that kettle while chilling. The RTD temp probe stays in the HLT full time and I monitor the mash temp on a couple of analog thermometers in the MLT and adjust the PID accordingly.

some pics...

















 
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Squeeky

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After talking with P-J, the final diagram is as follows:
 
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Squeeky

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The biggest difference is cosmetics, who need Automation switches anyway. If I was building for BYO article or for a webpage I would be all about it, however I'm building to make good beer. If it's one thing I've learned of the years is good beer can come from some ugly breweries.

The DPDT center off switch P-J linked too is key, as it eliminates the need for the 2 contactors and saves a few $. If anyone plans to duplicate I recommend ordering early as it seems to not be stocked at Grainger and must be ordered in.

This control panel will also be rather small and compact which will work nicely to make it protable. It also uses only 1 PID, whose temp probe will stay connected to the HLT. When done mashing just flip the switch and use manual control on the PID to control BK.

I would recommend if you are going to use any illuminate switches, do it for the PID. With this design it is also the master on/off. As you can see without the PID on, there is no power going to either leg of the element. Assuming the grainger switch is set to center off.

Please keep in mind this is a work in progress as I will be building the CP, and later the HLT and BK. If you guys have any suggestions for enclosure or comments feel free to reply. I don't think I'll use a toolbox as it may be over kill due to the small footprint and design. I believe if using a 40a SSR, I can get away with a standard Heatsink and not have to mount outside of the control panel.

Big thanks to P-J again, as a thank you I am now a Premium Supporter of HBT.
 
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Squeeky

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Debating using "The Pol's" JB Weld/stik method to create the connection from keggle to control box.

I realize members like Kal have a beautiful setup, however I'm looking to save cost and make things easy. Does anyone have a reason for me not to make the PVC couplings? Also when grounding the element to the kettle, so I need to have a hole through the ketlle, or can I just solder te ground like to the keggle?

Squeeky

Ordered the grainger switch and back ordered PID this evening. It's finally going to happen 5 yrs later. I will be selling all my extras after the build is complete.
 
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Squeeky

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P-J,

I actually already placed my order from Auber, so I'll have to find a different box. I should be able to locate something at the liquidator I talked about of the phone. Thank you though.
 

P-J

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You have some time before Auber ships. (out of stock) If you don't find a box that works, you can call Suyi Liu (the owner of Auber Ins) and add to your order. He's a great guy & will work with you.

Just saying.
 
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Squeeky

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Actually ordered on the 7th and it was shipped on the 8th. He said they were getting a very small shipment and would fulfill orders prior to listing in stock again. Guess I was lucky, also talked to grainger this morning and my toggle switch is in.
 
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Squeeky

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For those of you that are following this thread I wanted to mention I got my switch from grainger yesterday and it has a different toggle then what is shown online. It has a large black paddle toggle about 2in long. This is a +/- for myself as it will be easier to use, but I'm more affraid of accidently switching it.

However I could always put a small glass box around it that must be flipped up to adjust the switch. You know like in all the war movies, but I'll be launching beer not bombs.
 
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Squeeky

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You know your wife loves you when your spending the first half of V-day getting parts for your brewery. Off yo pickup my SPST switches, fuses, and stop by grainger and see about getting the switch pictured on their site without the huge toggle.
 
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Squeeky

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Parts List:

2x 30Amp 240 Dryer Outlets - $5.00/unit [Home Depot]
1x SSR 240v45A (in/out) 3-32 vdc (signal) - $5.00 [Ebay]
1x Pentium II Heatsink - FREE [HBT Board member back on 06']
2x 3AG Panel Mount Fuse Holder - $1.75/unit [PartsExpress]
5x 3AG Fast Blow 1A Fuses - $1.25 [PartsExpress]
1x 25A DPDT on/off/on Toggle Switch 2TPC5 - $12.25 [Grainger]
1x SPST Red illuminated rocker switch (PID Power) - $1.75 [PartsExpress]
1x SPST Green illuminated rocker switch (Pump Power) - $1.75 [PartsExpress]
1x Auberin PID SYL-2352 - $55.00 [Auberin]
1x 125vac 15amp recept. - FREE

Still needed:

Terminal Strip
Terminal Disconnects
Wire
Enclosure

I have a Type K Thermocouple however it is currently at Father-in-laws. I would like to use some sort of socket/plug rather then running the wire through just a hole in the box.

I've been toying with the idea of a metal tool box, or using a junction box. Feel free to share any recommendation.
 

shuie

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I have a bunch of left over stuff from my build. I know I have a 1/4" NPT water tight 4" k-type thermocouple probe with plug from Auber made to mount to the front of the box. The ends need to be dressed up, but it works. I also have some good red, black, green, & white stranded wire in different sizes. And, I think I have one or two heavy duty terminal strips. You can have the stuff if it will help. PM me a shipping address and I'll get it out to you.
 

P-J

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Awesome!

Did Grainger take the big toggle switch back? I hope so. Your replacement should be spot on. Just a little heads up. When you use terminal disconnects on your wiring, be sure to solder the wire connection, after you crimp them on, for the the high current applications. It will save you a huge amount of grief down the road.
 
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Squeeky

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Thanks P-J, I'll do just that. Yeah Grainger's Customer Service was top notch, the new switch has disconnect spades which will make things easier, I can understanding soldering them after. The nice thing is that it was in stock, so I didn't have to wait.

I've been looking into getting a high end adjustable soldering iron. I've found post on a couple of craft thread using an iron with Stay Brite 8. This will make things MUCH easier.
 

P-J

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That sounds great. I'm glad thet Grainger helped you work it out. Thanks for the update.

Regarding soldering with the switch. What I'm trying to say is to solder the wire to the crimp on terminal. You will be A-Ok with the terminal as a slip on to the switch post. No need to solder that. (Just trying to make sure I clarify that.)

Wish we lived closer. I'd loan you my HD soldering iron.
 

renevdb

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Don't solder after crimping as the heat and solder will weaken crimp. Just use a good crimper and your good to go.
 

P-J

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Don't solder after crimping as the heat and solder will weaken crimp. Just use a good crimper and your good to go.
Sorry... I STRONGLY beg to differ.

On another note: Please define a "good crimp" for all of us reading this forum. What tool to use? Where to buy it? How do we know that it provides a "good crimp"?

Please inform us.
 

ipscman

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I took my design from the electric brewery (http://www.electricbrewery.com) but simplified it to what I need which made it considerably cheaper and easier to build. Probably took two days total, once the parts were all here. System works fantastic. Dial in the temp and it sticks within 1/2 F. Couldn't be happier with it. I now have control of my mash temp and repeatability. Here are some pics:





I cannot recommend their site enough. Without their brains, I couldn't have put this together. They now have a boook you can download which makes it much easier. I spent hours looking at all of their pages and takinng notes. Bottomline it works great.

Just one guys experience.
 

renevdb

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Sorry... I STRONGLY beg to differ.

On another note: Please define a "good crimp" for all of us reading this forum. What tool to use? Where to buy it? How do we know that it provides a "good crimp"?

Please inform us.
To get a good crimp use a ratchet crimper with the appropriate die. This will make sure the connector and cable are "welded" together under the high pressure. You will never be able to apply enough pressure using a plier as it will just squeeze and create a space somewhere else and weaken the connection. As example you can use one of these crimper's.

If you solder a crimp the copper will soften and break the "weld" made by the crimper. The gaps will then be filled by the soft solder making the crimp weak as it's hold together by the solder and any movement or vibration will crystallize the solder creating a bad connection.

My information comes from working with marine cabling for many years and seeing many different problems using soldered connections and only a few using crimping.
 

P-J

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To get a good crimp use a ratchet crimper with the appropriate die. This will make sure the connector and cable are "welded" together under the high pressure. You will never be able to apply enough pressure using a plier as it will just squeeze and create a space somewhere else and weaken the connection. As example you can use one of these crimper's.

If you solder a crimp the copper will soften and break the "weld" made by the crimper. The gaps will then be filled by the soft solder making the crimp weak as it's hold together by the solder and any movement or vibration will crystallize the solder creating a bad connection.

My information comes from working with marine cabling for many years and seeing many different problems using soldered connections and only a few using crimping.
Well, at $72.55 for a "compliant" crimp tool, I'll pass. On another note, your work on marine applications explains a lot. For that - I'm in total agreement. For our use it's another story. BTW, I do use a crimp tool (Lowe's, HD) and then solder for the high current connections.

P-J
 

renevdb

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There are probably good crimper's at Lowes or HD that are cheaper and will do the trick. The point I'm making is that soldering will weaken the crimp, google it if you don't believe me.

My mentor always used the following comparison, you use a screwdriver for a screw and then a hammer to hit it even deeper. This hit with the hammer will ruin the thread and that's exactly what your doing with soldering.
 

samc

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Crimps & Solder - sounds like an LA Gang.

This all really depends on the quality of what you are crimping. I bought an assortment of crimp terminals from Harbor Freight and I'd say 30-50% of them failed. I'd surely solder those as the metal being crimped was not strong enough to hold the wire.

Now I buy the better brands.
 
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Squeeky

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Thanks for the info and the debate. I'm awaiting more parts and will most likely solder. Not saying one is better then the other just using the tools I have available. Next week I will have all the parts for control panel and look forward to an update.
 
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Squeeky

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Well over the weekend I purchased this for my control panel:

Harbor Freight Metal Toolbox
http://www.harborfreight.com/steel-toolbox-97532.html

After getting it home and searching HBT for toolbox control panels, I decided I wanted to mount my march pump in the box as well. The box above was not tall enough to hold both comfortably. I returned and attempted to purchase this:

Stainless Steel Toolbox
http://www.harborfreight.com/20-inch-stainless-steel-toolbox-93168.html

I wanted a metal body so I could mount SSR directly and place heatsink on outside. No need to line things up as the metal box will disipate heat as well. They were currently out of stock, so I'll be going back this week to pick it up.
 

Double-R

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BUMP-BUMP-Squeeky.. Was going to PM these questions but, so for
others that would like to know i'll post them.
  1. Diagram 2 is that what youre following/ i see no contactors/30A DPDT POWER RELAY 120v AC COIL-
  2. The RTD sensors, will you use two. one for HLT one for Boil kettle
And i Batch sparge so one pump will do. Do plan to add that to wiring diagram.
 
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Squeeky

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No problem Double-R, the diagram shows two pumps, which I'm actually only going to be using one to start out with. I'm also mounting in the toolbox with control panel so I do not have to wire an outlet just wiring it directly to switch. If you happen to use standard 30a dryer plugs I recommend ebay. Not only did I get 2 shipped for the price of 1, they are both 6ft, which will give me a little more room to play with.

I chose not to use a second RTD, as mentioned water boils a 212f, I have a chillzilla and live in ohio so I really don't worry about cooling temps.
 

Double-R

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The biggest difference is cosmetics, who need Automation switches anyway. If I was building for BYO article or for a webpage I would be all about it, however I'm building to make good beer. If it's one thing I've learned of the years is good beer can come from some ugly breweries.

The DPDT center off switch P-J linked too is key, as it eliminates the need for the 2 contactors and saves a few $. If anyone plans to duplicate I recommend ordering early as it seems to not be stocked at Grainger and must be ordered in.

This control panel will also be rather small and compact which will work nicely to make it protable. It also uses only 1 PID, whose temp probe will stay connected to the HLT. When done mashing just flip the switch and use manual control on the PID to control BK.

I would recommend if you are going to use any illuminate switches, do it for the PID. With this design it is also the master on/off. As you can see without the PID on, there is no power going to either leg of the element. Assuming the grainger switch is set to center off.

Please keep in mind this is a work in progress as I will be building the CP, and later the HLT and BK. If you guys have any suggestions for enclosure or comments feel free to reply. I don't think I'll use a toolbox as it may be over kill due to the small footprint and design. I believe if using a 40a SSR, I can get away with a standard Heatsink and not have to mount outside of the control panel.

Big thanks to P-J again, as a thank you I am now a Premium Supporter of HBT.
Squeeky... You answered most of my question here. about contactors we can The DPDT center off switch and the 1 temp probe.. Again Thanks
 
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Squeeky

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L14-30 Female



Purchased this last night as the power input to control panel, I'm curious though would it be possible to run multiple leads off the neutral/ground screw connections. Essential using 2-3 ring terminals. I still plan on using a terminal strip for the phase A & phase B 120vac, just trying to minimize the clutter as well as terminal strips in the box.
 

fivehoursfree

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Question for PJand Squeeky about the second diagram.
The switch #1 (selector switch) is rated at 15 amps for 240V.
But those heating elements should draw over 18amps.
So..... is that safe and proper?
 
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Squeeky

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I had a similar concern, however it is rated for 15a for 240v on each leg. Since we are actually sending 120v per leg it will work out well as it's rated for 25A, and a 5500w element only using 23.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong as it was P-J whom eased my concerns
 
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