Side-By-Side Fridge - Fermentation Chamber (with heat)/Keezer combo?

[jtkratzer]

I ran a separate hot from the terminal block where the cord connects. I cut the female connector off the hot side of the power cord and replaced it with a male connector. I connected my new hot and a short length of wire to connect the power cord back to its original spade. Those two were connected and crimped into a single female, insulate connector (only type I had that would fit two 14 gauge wires in). I connected that female to the male I replaced on the power cord and the other length of wire I connected back to the original hot spade.

I ran the new hot to power the PID through the water lines (removed the tanks and all the water/ice making stuff) to go through the wall of the fridge and protect the wire on the back side of the fridge without having to make new holes.

Seems to be working now. I set the PID to cool down to 68* as a test and that's where I'll ferment my Centennial Blonde after I brew tomorrow. If I get up tomorrow morning and the fridge is holding at 68*, I'll be happy.

EDIT: Just went out to check and things are looking good. And at some point this weekend...some shelves to support two fermenters stacked.

 

[jtkratzer]

Still holding at 68. Changed a few settings to keep the compressor from cycling on and off at a ridiculous rate. 30 second run time and a +/- 2 degree temp swing before it shuts off.

Looking good for tomorrow to maintain temps on my first all grain brew on the new eHERMS.

 

[jtkratzer]

Holding at 68* this morning. Looks like I'm good on fermentation temp control.

 

[drkwoods]

The only thing I'm concerned about is the hot yellow. I don't know where it picks up 120V from because there are no yellow wires where the power comes in from the power cord, and then, out of nowhere, a hot yellow is coming through the fridge and freezer wall.

No idea where the orange wires go. The come out of the fridge wall and I don't see them anywhere else on the appliance. I'm guessing they have something to do with the thermostat or humidity sensor...

Yellow is the power to the interior light and comes from the switch above the door

Orange wires are the Mullion and Stile heaters.. orange/Blk goes to both of those heaters. Orange alone goes to the other half of the Mullion heater and is switched (read power savings) its used in humid environments your choice.

 

[drkwoods]

Now that all of this extra nonsense is out of the way:

I'm left with an empty side-by-side and a lot more wiring in both sides than what appears RO come from the back side with all the power.

Now you have a whole new problem i believe.. Since you removed all the fridges ability to control the defrost, your left with a freezer that will simply freeze and eventually freeze up solid with ice and then it will no longer function..(i made the same error on my build) Your gonna have to reinstall the "useless" stuff my friend.. The only thing you should cut out on this fridge is the Thermostat.. The fridge needs a defrost.. You wont know it immed, but after a week and the coils freeze up solid your gonna need help fixing that prob.. but I know what your thinking...Im not freezing anything.. I just want to hold me beer around 40 degrees.. The coils dont operate at different temps and then melt clean.. they freeking get supa supa cold and then turn off.. the when the compressor is on they get supa supa cold again over and over, in time ice will freeze over them from acculumated frozen water and your coils will be extremely inefficient.. I hope that doesnt happen and certainly will not if your just fermenting around 65-70f,, but if you lager or serve beer your gonna have probs..

 

[drkwoods]

You need that Defrost timer.. it will turn on a heater every 8 hrs to warm up the coils to around 54 degrees.. the freezer side will rise a few degrees but its not a big deal to 5 gal of beer (thermal capacity) see my pics.. I took these with only the defrost timer removed (unplugged) and you can see the old thermo there.. After I made this error, i put the timer back in a used it to do its job. but I also spliced off that Orange wire to control my Compressor (thru the PID) because You DO NOT want the compressor on while the defrost heater is on (fight against each other and go no where) keep on posting where you decide to go with this.. but i can tell you 100% we have the exact same fridge guts and I know this baby

PS.. you see the orange wire going into the thermo? thats the hot from the defrost timer.. It kills power to the Compressor when the heater is on.. No worries, your PID will call for cold and even switch the switch on.. but nothing will happen during this time period as PIN 8 on the Auber will not be currently power (energized)..

 

[jtkratzer]

I'll put the defrost timer back in. I'll snap some pics of what I have pulled out and I'll check the wiring.

 

[jtkratzer]

This it?

The terminals on the back are numbered 2 PK, 1 BK, 4 OR, 3 R. I'm assuming those correspond to insulation color of the wire to connect to them. I'll have to go out to the fridge and check that out.

That will give the fridge enough time to warm up and time for the PID to do an effective auto tune, as it's been working on that for about 8 or 9 hours and not complete.

 

[jtkratzer]

This is starting to click...not the concept of the defroster, but the wiring. The socket connector is what plugs into the defrost timer. I need to rewire that to work properly and tie those two black wires back together. Those are the wires I split to run my compressor. From there, I can use the orange wire and red on my PID to run the compressor and having the defrost timer in place will prevent the PID from kicking the compressor on while the heater in running. And for a neutral for the PID, I just have to splice into the white wire for the light bulb, which is what I have now, but it would be nice to have the light back in there.

I think I've experience a light bulb.

 

[jtkratzer]

Well, since I sort of hacked up the wiring, just a little, before getting help to figure all this out, here's what I think I need to do. I'm not interested in rebuilding the socket since I don't have those uninsulated connectors to work with that kind of socket. So, this is what I think needs to happen:

Uninsulated orange and red wires on terminals 7 and 8 of the PID for the compressor. Tie the two black wires back together into a single female connector. Cut the orange, red, and pink off the socket and put female connectors on those. Connect the four wires to the defrost timer. Jump the neutral from my PID to a female connector to connect the light bulb to the door open/close switch. Insulated orange and orange/black to the power savings switch. Remount the housing for the light, defrost timer, and switch.

Keep in mind, I split the hot from the power cord to pull my own separate power supply for the PID and put a 1 amp inline fuse on it, so the only thing I need from the fridge is the white neutral, and the two wires for the PID to close the NO contacts to run the compressor.

That sounds like it gets the PID power, properly controls the compressor while having the defrost timer do its job and override the PID when the defrost heater is on.

Again, confirm that sounds right.

 

[drkwoods]

yea yea!! Keep staring at that Schematic, it will start to make sense to you.. the thing I had the hardest time understanding is actually the key to the whole circuit and thats the Defrost timer.. plug it back in.. It gets power all the time (Black wire) and every 8 hrs it will switch the power over from the thermostat to the defroster. During the defrost the Compressor (red wires) will not get power.. The Defroster (pink wire) will get all the power.. When the coils in the freezer reach 54f? (I think) then the Bi-metal will open and cut the power to the Defroster because of heat.. When the defrost time cycle is over the switch will go back to sending power to the thermo and the compressor will come on if the thermo calls for cooling.. You'll Still have a light if you just tap into a white wire.. just dont cut the yellow it runs to the switch and is hot when the door is open only.

 

[jtkratzer]

Sweet. Looks like I got it. Thanks again for your help and preventing me from destroying the fridge.

 

[jtkratzer]

Not completely finished, but the defrost timer and lights are back in. It's good enough to keep the two fermenters stable while I'm gone for a couple weeks and when my wife drops the temp into the low 40s to cold crash them for a few days before I get back so they're ready for kegging, it won't freeze up the coils.

I'm going to mount all that hanging stuff in the back where it's supposed to go and I'll probably rewire it when I cut the holes to mount the two PIDs in the door. As you can see the temp rose enough during the time it was unplugged with the doors open to rerun the auto tune.

Thanks to everyone for your help and to drkwoods for looking out for the health of my coils and compressor.

:rockin:

 

[drkwoods]

:rockin: COOL!! Literally.. LOL

 

[jtkratzer]

I guess I'll call Auber tomorrow to see if they can tell me anything else to try on the settings with the PID. I ran the auto tune this afternoon and it's still going, and the temp is 6 degrees below the set temp.

 

[drkwoods]

IN MY OPINION : on/off mode is better for this. BYMMV. PID sounds like it would work better with auto tune and all but I didn't find it to be so with my builds. Plus I found AT will never finish unless the auto is started when the fridge is about 10-20 degree below your set point Anyhoo. For on/off mode set A-T to 3, set T (cycle time ) to whatever you wish for cycling on/off times 40,60, 90 or even more. Up to you.
Hy is the amount of swing in temp the PID will allow befor it reacts. Set that too narrow i.e. .5 and the compressor will be struggling to keep an exact temp. Set it wider like 2 an things will be better. Plus in our application we are dealing with (commonly) 5 gallons of liquid per vessel or more and a 2 degree swing in the fridge makes no appreciable difference in 5 gallons of liquid. Hope that helps. Also Auber is very good at helping I love that

 

[jtkratzer]

IN MY OPINION : on/off mode is better for this. BYMMV. PID sounds like it would work better with auto tune and all but I didn't find it to be so with my builds. Plus I found AT will never finish unless the auto is started when the fridge is about 10-20 degree below your set point Anyhoo. For on/off mode set A-T to 3, set T (cycle time ) to whatever you wish for cycling on/off times 40,60, 90 or even more. Up to you.
Hy is the amount of swing in temp the PID will allow befor it reacts. Set that too narrow i.e. .5 and the compressor will be struggling to keep an exact temp. Set it wider like 2 an things will be better. Plus in our application we are dealing with (commonly) 5 gallons of liquid per vessel or more and a 2 degree swing in the fridge makes no appreciable difference in 5 gallons of liquid. Hope that helps. Also Auber is very good at helping I love that

I was hoping 8-10 degrees was enough to complete the auto tune. On/Off should work just fine as well. Thanks again.

 

[jtkratzer]

Am I going to fry the pair of 120mm 12V computer fans I got to circulate air from the freezer to the fridge when powering them from the alarm output of my 2342 PIDs that appear to be 24V output?

 

[jtkratzer]

I decided to hack up an old router power cord to go from 120V to 12V. Fans are running great. Now I need to wire up the second PID to control the fans.

 

[jtkratzer]

Everything is wired, mounted, and running. I'll deal with the light bulb for heating later on. Pretty pumped about having two different temps for fermentation, aging, serving, etc.

EDIT: on second thought, I wonder if the cold air will "leak" over enough to make things too cool...probably not during the summer months when it's probably fighting the heat more than anything else. I guess I'll keep and eye on it and figure out the light bulb mounting just in case.

 

[jtkratzer]

Looking good so far. Upped the Hy value on the freezer to 5.0 until I need to ferment in there. Otherwise, it's chilling sodas, etc and providing the cool air for the fridge side.

 

[jtkratzer]

Both PIDs went back to Auber...one was defective and not reading the temp correctly (verified by Auber) and they're sending a replacement. Second PID wasn't power up and it must have been a blown fuse because they said it's just fine.

Brewing has been on hold due to not being able to really control temps. As soon as they get back, it's on like Donkey Kong.

 

[jtkratzer]

Got shelves built for the freezer side and a light bulb in an enclosure to heat the fridge side.

 

[jtkratzer]

Light bulb was pretty ineffective at heating the fridge side, so I picked up a 750W electric fan heater.

Thinking about wiring it...without overloading the 10A relay of the SYL-2342 PIDs. I have a dedicated leg for power with a 1A fuse for the two PIDs and the two 12V PC fans are draw on that as well. The PID that controls the compressor which cools the freezer side, closes the circuit to power the compressor.

The heater draws 6.25 amps (750W / 120V). I'm sure the compressor draws more than 3.75 amps. To try and keep this simple, the PID that controls the compress is the freezer PID and the PID that controls the temp on the fridge side is the fridge PID (fans to circulate air from the freezer to cool and the heater keep it from getting too cool). If I jump from the constant hot leg that powers the compressor on the freezer PID to contact 8 on the fridge PID, that doesn't put the draw of the heater and the compressor on the freezer relay, right? And it would only be an issue if the heater and compressor were both running at the same time, if it's an issue for the freezer PID's relay.

Does that sound right?

 

[jtkratzer]

It's working as described above where the power source for the heater and compressor are separate from what powers the PIDs.

 

[drkwoods]

Light bulb was pretty ineffective at heating the fridge side, so I picked up a 750W electric fan heater.

Thinking about wiring it...without overloading the 10A relay of the SYL-2342 PIDs. I have a dedicated leg for power with a 1A fuse for the two PIDs and the two 12V PC fans are draw on that as well. The PID that controls the compressor which cools the freezer side, closes the circuit to power the compressor.

The heater draws 6.25 amps (750W / 120V). I'm sure the compressor draws more than 3.75 amps. To try and keep this simple, the PID that controls the compress is the freezer PID and the PID that controls the temp on the fridge side is the fridge PID (fans to circulate air from the freezer to cool and the heater keep it from getting too cool). If I jump from the constant hot leg that powers the compressor on the freezer PID to contact 8 on the fridge PID, that doesn't put the draw of the heater and the compressor on the freezer relay, right? And it would only be an issue if the heater and compressor were both running at the same time, if it's an issue for the freezer PID's relay.

Does that sound right?

yea I ditched the Light bulb idea after one week of testing. As Far as overloading the circuits..Just make sure the power into the PID is the main power in from the plug (constant hot). Im sure the vast majority of the time they will not be both running.. the critical point is when the compressor starts up from a dead stop. It draws the most at that point. Im sure your prob fine. If you look at my build Im usinga heater too now.

 

[jtkratzer]

yea I ditched the Light bulb idea after one week of testing. As Far as overloading the circuits..Just make sure the power into the PID is the main power in from the plug (constant hot). Im sure the vast majority of the time they will not be both running.. the critical point is when the compressor starts up from a dead stop. It draws the most at that point. Im sure your prob fine. If you look at my build Im usinga heater too now.

I only ran it long enough to see how things would go. Temp rose 15 degrees pretty quickly. I'm curious to see how far of a spread I can do between the fridge and freezer.

At/near the max is where I'm concerned about the overload. If the heat is running to keep the fridge warm and that heat leaks into the freezer side enough to cause it to run, that's where I'd see them both on. I would think as long as I'm in the mid to upper 40s in the freezer and mid to upper 60s or lower in the fridge, I think I'll be ok, that along with a sufficiently big enough Hy setting.

 

[jtkratzer]

Got the fans installed and everything finished up. Compressor and heater have run at the same time and all seems well. Heater is only running on one PID and the compressor is on the other PID. Jumped power from the constant hot that used to go through the thermostat that closed the circuit between that hot and the leg to the compressor.

The freezer side is in the mid to upper 40s to store bottled beer for now and the fridge is in the mid 60s to see how things go with the two different temps.

I'll have both sides fermenting two different ales over the next couple weeks and I'm interested to see how the freezer side does without a heater in it when mid to upper 60s will be the desired temp. I suppose I could wiring the fans to run constantly to circulate the heat from the fridge and it basically will be the complete opposite from the summer where the freezer cools both sides.

 

[jdub44]

I'm building a similar type arrangement with my side by side. I will be using the Fermtroller to control my 3 zones. I plan on making 2 fermenting zones on fridge side and using the freezer side for chilling and storing beer. I am using fermwraps for heating and plan on installing two computer fans to draw air from the freezer side to their respective zone on the fridge side. Did you install any louvers to prevent air flow between the two sides when the fans are off? I'd also be interested to see some pics of the finished install with the fans.

Cheers!

 

[jtkratzer]

I'm building a similar type arrangement with my side by side. I will be using the Fermtroller to control my 3 zones. I plan on making 2 fermenting zones on fridge side and using the freezer side for chilling and storing beer. I am using fermwraps for heating and plan on installing two computer fans to draw air from the freezer side to their respective zone on the fridge side. Did you install any louvers to prevent air flow between the two sides when the fans are off? I'd also be interested to see some pics of the finished install with the fans.

Cheers!

Was out of town for a bit and hadn't been on the site. I didn't not install any preventative measures to stop air flow. I have a dedicated beer fridge for the kegs and rarely have the temps that far apart that anything runs very long keeping appropriate temps on each side. I simply drilled holes through the divider and bolted the fans to it. Nothing elegant, but it works. I got the fridge for $50 and didn't feel like spending a ton of money or effort in making it show worthy in the event it dies and needs to be replaced.