Should I wait for cleanup before adding oak?

[bartbert]

I have a clone of Oaked Arrogant Bastard from AHS (extract plus partial mash: OG=1.081) that has been in the primary fermenter for about 4 weeks now. My plan was to add the oak cubes this weekend and give it another 7-10 days (tasting every 2 or 3 days) before bottling.

I took a hydrometer reading this morning (1.021 vs. expected 1.018) and gave it a taste. I'd have to say that it tastes kind of harsh and "medicine-like", which surprised me because it seemed to taste pretty good about a week ago when I last checked it.

So now I'm not sure if I should wait another week or so before adding the oak cubes to see if it will clean up a bit, or go ahead and add the oak and see what happens.

Either way, I think I'd like to get it out of the primary by week 5 or 6. Either bottle it, or move it to a secondary and let it bulk condition for awhile. I'd be interested to hear what others think.

 

[Golddiggie]

If it's not at a stable SG (or at it's actual FG) then I'd wait until it was. IF you really want to put it on oak, you'll either need to use a LOT of oak chips for <2 weeks time, or expand that time frame to longer. Oak can take ~2 months before it's released everything into the brew.

I would be interested to hear what others that have made the clone have to say... But, my experience with oak is that you let it stay in the brew for at least 1-2 months... I wouldn't even sample the brew until a few weeks after the oak was added...

If you're going to age on oak for 2+ months, then you could rack off of the yeast, just make sure that the brew is ready for that stage. I would also use something that is not going to let light in (at all) such as a corny keg. That way, you can oak it, and let it sit until it's really ready... I did that for an old ale that had oak in it for 5-1/2 weeks... It's since been bottled and is carbonating (almost two weeks since it's been bottled)...

 

[bartbert]

The recipe calls for 2.5 oz of American Oak for 5-7 days after transferring to a secondary. I decided to skip the secondary and put the oak cubes in the primary.

I've heard a lot of folks on here advise against going overboard on oak, and to sample frequently to make sure it isn't becoming overpowering. I figured I'd give the oak 7-10 days and decide from there whether it needs longer. If it's going to take ~2 months to make its presence felt, then I will probably rack to secondary in another week or two.

Just wondering what the best sampling process is when oak cubes are being used? It seems like you would want to gently stir the batch to distribute the oak flavor before sampling. Otherwise, you might get a non-representative sample depending on where you draw the sample.

 

[Golddiggie]

At most, I would give it a very gently swirl a day before you want to sample. But, if the oak is running free in the brew, you could just leave it alone and try it...

2.5oz of chips is rather heavy... Considering how a 4oz package is usually rated for 25 gallons of wine. With most wine having a higher ABV rating than beers, it will extract faster (in the wine)... Depending on the ABV of the brew you added it to, you could get faster extraction of flavors.

What toast level did you use? That will determine what the brew gets from the wood.

 

[coryforsenate]

I oaked my stout for 7 days with 1oz of oak cubes and upon bottling, the oak was very noticeable.

Keep in mind that the oak takes time to mellow.

 

[bartbert]

According to the AHS web site, the cubes included in the kit are somewhere between a "medium" and "heavy" toast. I've been soaking them in bourbon the past couple of weeks. I was also thinking I would put the cubes into a dry hop bag rather than just throw them into the fermenter (maybe with some kind of weight included to keep it submerged). I can see pros and cons to either method.

I'm sure that putting them in a dry hop sack will reduce the contact surface area compared to just throwing them in loose, but it makes it easier to pull them out, and maybe limiting the contact surface area is a good thing in this case.

 

[bartbert]

I think I'll sample the SG and taste once per week over the next two weeks. If the taste improves, I will probably add the oak cubes and monitor the taste from there. If it is still kind of nasty tasting after two weeks, I will probably transfer it to secondary and monitor the taste every so often. I don't see any point in adding oak cubes until the beer is basically sound. Otherwise, I'll just be adding oak flavor to crappy beer.

 

[Golddiggie]

How much bourbon have they been soaking in? I would avoid pouring the bourbon into the brew.

You should be fine letting them run free. If you want to put them into a bag and send them to the bottom, you can. I would just be a bit concerned that they'd be in the trub more than the brew.

If those are Medium Plus toast, then just sample every week, or so... Depending on how fast the flavors come out, you might want to taste more, or less, often.

I do find it somewhat amusing how recipe's will call for strict times for flavor elements... What if you like more, or less of that element? Do they say "for more oak flavor leave in for X weeks, for less N weeks"?? If you know what the original tastes like, then at least you have a better idea of how that flavor is. But, it's not going to be identical until it's carbonated and aged for the same amount of time.

For when to add the oak, I agree that the base brew at least needs to taste good/decent before you start including the oak... Oak won't change bad flavors, but it can make a brew much better.

I'm looking forward to trying my old ale that was oak aged for about 5.5 weeks... Got to wait at least a few more days before testing one... Not going to chill any down until after 2 weeks in bottles (carbonating)... I can be patient. Considering how I started the brew on 12/20/10...

 

[bartbert]

I basically put enough bourbon in to cover the cubes, but I thought I'd boil off the liquid before adding the cubes to the beer. I figured the alcohol in the bourbon would sanitize the cubes, and maybe leave a nice flavor after boiling off the liquid.

Yeah, I don't pay much attention to the recipe as far as fermentation time and the oak flavoring. Like most kit recipes, it says to leave in primary fermenter for 5-7 days and then transfer to secondary for another 5-7 days. I ignored that and left in the primary for what I figured would be 4-6 weeks based on the OG.

It does say at the very bottom of the recipe, "This handcrafted beer will taste best after 5 weeks or more of storage". So they are making some attempt to let newbies know that they shouldn't expect this beer to be ready to drink in a couple of weeks.

I'm prepared to wait as long as it takes. I have other brews in the works, and I can always supplement with Stone, Dogfish Head, and other fine products in the mean time.

 

[Golddiggie]

I would just drain the bourbon off (save it for later ) and add the cubes. No point in boiling off perfectly good (and probably even better by now) bourbon. If nothing else, soak your next steak in it.

I would be prepared to let it oak for 4-8 weeks... Depending on how it comes out, you could rack off of the oak and let it rest for another couple of weeks before bottling... Just to be sure it's where you want it. With as much time as you have invested in it now, what's a few more weeks?? Especially if it makes it a really great brew.

 

[bartbert]

You're probably right about saving the bourbon. It's only a couple of ounces, but I'm sure I can find something to do with it.

I'll just let taste be my guide on the oak. I think it will probably need some extended bottle conditioning, so once the oak tastes about right, I may let it go just a bit longer so that it tastes right after conditioning.

I appreciate the input from someone who has gone through this before.

 

[Golddiggie]

Sounds like you have it figured out... I do agree with going a little over with the flavor when it's in bulk, so that when it bottle ages/conditions, it's on target. Or at least closer to being on target when you're looking to drink it... You can always let it age a bit longer if it's a hair too much. How long to age, will depend on the flavor element and how much it needs to reduce.

I have an accidental barleywine that's bottle conditioning now. It was on oak for almost a month. I'm going to let it go another month, or two, before I try another bottle. It might be next winter before it's gotten to where I really like it. I don't have any issue letting it sit that long. At 9.7% ABV, it can have as long as it needs.

I do hope my old ale is ready sooner... It's only 8.1% and was better before bottling than the other brew. Just waiting for that to fully carbonate before I pop one.

 

[bartbert]

Waiting is both the worst part and the best part of this hobby. The part of me that wants immediate gratitude hates having to wait so long to enjoy the fruits of my labor. But having something to look forward to is like having Christmas all year round. I have a clone of Sierra Nevada Bigfoot Barleywine sitting in my closet that should be ready around the holidays, so I'm already looking forward to Xmas this year!

 

[jtakacs]

waiting blows... i have a plambic in primary and it smells better than any other beer i've ever had the pleasure of smelling (that sounds wrong i know)... but i'm not touching it until my son turns 10 (february of 2012)....

i have found the secret to impatience is to brew another batch. lol.

post a follow up on how the oak works out, i'm thinking of oaking a porter for winter... i was planning on it being on just a bit of light oak for months, but if it works out to use a heavier toast for less, i'll be curious.

also let us know if any of the bourbon comes through after conditioning.

 

[bartbert]

Sure, I'll try remember to post back here with how it all turned out.

 

[bartbert]

Status update. I took a sample today and the SG is holding steady at 1.021 compared to a week ago. I thought there was noticeably less of a medicine taste to it, but still there. I'm not going to bother taking anymore hydrometer readings, but I'll probably pull a taste sample every week or so to see how the cleanup is coming along. I'm at week 5 in the primary fermenter, so I'm hoping it will be satisfactory before the 8 week point. I really want to avoid going to a secondary. Anyway, not quite ready to add the oak cubes just yet.

 

[Golddiggie]

The medicine taste could be gone by the next taste sample, or the one after that. At that point, it's more with what you're comfortable with. Either put the cubes in right in primary, or rack to another vessel and add the cubes. Either one would work, it just depends on how much work you want to go through, and risk you're comfortable with. You're at 8% ABV now, so even if it's at the FG, you have a good strength to it.

Once you put the oak in it, I would taste it after a week first. How long you leave it with wood will determine how much it contributes to the brew, as you must know by now. If you want a stronger contribution, leave it longer. I do think that it will mellow in the bottle, at least some. So if you want more strong flavor once it's actually ready to drink, go a bit stronger while it's on the oak. It's a fine line though, and going too far means it will need some more time to mellow...

I'm planning on chilling down one of my old ale bottles in a few days. It's almost been three weeks since it was bottled. I'd like to try it either later next week, or next weekend to see where it's at. I have to be very selective on doing this, since I only have 22 bottles to play with (750ml Belgian's)...

I've got a line on some 1/6 size Sanke kegs (found them on CL locally)... If they are what I think they are, I plan on getting a few to use either as primary fermenters or to age in. Either one should work great. Could be better for aging, since I'll be able to put things in there and really not worry about them, other than temperature. Looking forward to changing over to more SS fermenters/aging vessels... I'll need at least one for aging a large barleywine when I make it. Might even primary in it actually.

 

[Gunfighter04]

Great info on this thread. Starting my bourbon oaked Porter this weekend. This will be my first brew that I secondary. I've been soaking the oak cubes in makers mark for 2 weeks and I find myself cracking open the jar just to smell it I also picked up the fixin's for a dunkel so I wouldn't get impatient and let it age.

 

[cheezydemon3]

There is no telling with Oak aged Bastard, but medicinal taste would concern me very much.

Definitely finish it out and bottle or keg, but your aggressive sanitation schedule wouldn't have left any sanitizer (other than no rinse) anywhere, would it?

 

[bartbert]

I have had the oak cubes in for two weeks now. I sampled after one week and really couldn't taste any oak. Now after two weeks, the oak flavor is starting to come through. I'm guessing that in another week or two, it will be about right.

 

[Golddiggie]

Sounds about right... Cubes are typically used for 3-4 weeks... Of course, you can let them sit for more, or less, time depending on your tastes, the toast level of the oak, and how much you add...

My old ale came out freaking great with the oak addition I made... I have my wee heavy sitting on 1.5oz of medium toast Hungarian oak cubes right now. Just passed the one week mark there (on Friday) but I'm not even going to think about tasting it until it's been three weeks. Hell, I might just bottle it after a full month on the oak and not worry about it...