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Should I make a starter with a smack pack?

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DarkUncle

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Just wondering if this is necessary. I was planning on smacking it 2 days before brew day and leaving it out at room temp. If it swells I'm good to go, right?

Maybe I'll make a starter with it just to try because I've never done it before. If I do that I shouldn't need any yeast additives or anything because it's in the pack, right?
 
It's really a good idea to make starters when using ANY liguid yeast, smack pack, tube, or the jar of washed at the back of your fridge, for all beers above 1.020 OG...

The biggest reason I suggest folks make a starter is if you make one you'll have peace of mind.

And you won't be starting an "is my yeast dead" thread in a couple of days. (Which then one of us will answer with...."Had you made a starter..." :D

Making a starter first insures that your yeast is still alive and viable before you dump it in your beer. You will be less likely to start one of those "is my yeast dead?" threads that are on here every day.

You will also ensure that you have enough yeast usually the tubes and smack packs are a lot less yeast that you really should use for healthy fermentation.

Making a starter also usually means your beer will take off sooner, because the first thing that the little buggers do in the presence of wort (whether in a flask or in a fermenter) is have an orgy to reproduce enough cells to do the job...So it won't take such a long time in the fermenter since they started doing it in the flask.

Additionally it is better for the yeast to consume and reproduce incrementally rather than just dumping them into the fermenter...The yeast will be less stressed out than if you just dump them in.

Stressed out yeast can lead to a lot of off flavors...maybe even (though rare) the dreaded autolysis....Or the curse of 1.030....getting a stuck fermentation because the yeast have bit the dust.

So making a starter proves your yeast is still healthy, allows you to grow enough yeast to do the job, cuts down on lag time, and ensures that you will not get off flavors or stuck ferementations from stressed out yeast.

Also has to do with the actual pitch rates of the smack packs and tubes, and has to do with the data that Jamil Z has on his mr malty website.

I'll quote some of it, but really you should look at the stuff there;

http://www.mrmalty.com/pitching.php

Ales & Lagers

The general consensus on pitching rates is that you want to pitch around 1 million cells of viable yeast, for every milliliter of wort, for every degree plato. A little less for an ale, a little more for a lager. George Fix states about 1.5 million for a lager and 0.75 million for an ale in his book, An Analysis of Brewing Techniques. Other literature cites a slightly higher amount. I'm going with Fix's numbers and that is what the pitching calculator uses.
The Math

If you're curious, here is the simple math to calculate the number of cells needed. For an ale, you want to pitch around 0.75 million cells of viable yeast (0.75 million for an ale, 1.5 million for a lager), for every milliliter of wort, for every degree plato.

(0.75 million) X (milliliters of wort) X (degrees Plato of the wort)

* There is about 3785 milliliters in a gallon. There are about 20,000 milliliters in 5.25 gallons.

* A degree Plato is about 1.004 of original gravity. Just divide the OG by 4 to get Plato (e.g., 1.048 is 12 degrees Plato).

So, for a 1.048 wort pitching into 5.25 gallons you need about 180 billion cells.

(750,000) X (20,000) X (12) = 180,000,000,000

As an easy to remember rough estimate, you need about 15 billion cells for each degree Plato or about 4 billion cells for each point of OG when pitching into a little over 5 gallons of wort. If you want a quick way of doing a back of the envelope estimate, that is really close to 0.75 billion cells for each point of gravity per gallon of wort. Double that to 1.5 billion for a lager.
Pitching From Tubes, Packs, or Dry Yeast

Both White Labs and Wyeast make fantastic products and you can't go wrong with either one. There are differences between their strains and each brand has pluses and minuses yet neither is better than the other across the board. Use the brand your local homebrew shop carries, if you need a way to decide.

A White Labs tube has between 70 and 120 billion cells of 100% viable yeast, depending on the yeast strain. Some cells are much larger than others and there are more or less per ml based on size. (The information on the White Labs web site stating 30 to 50 billion cells is out of date.) We can just assume there are around 100 billion very healthy yeast. You would need 2 tubes if you were pitching directly into 5.5 gallons of 1.048 wort to get the proper cell counts.

A Wyeast Activator pack (the really big ones) and the pitchable tubes have an average of 100 billion cells of 100% viable yeast. The smaller packs are around 15-18 billion cells. You would need 2 of the large packs if you were pitching directly into 5.5 gallons of 1.048 wort to get the proper cell counts. For the small packs, you'd need eleven of them!


But to make it easier he has a great pitch rate calculator http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

And according to his numbers on his calculator, really any beer above 1.020, you should be making a starter for.

Me personally when I use liquid yeast I just make a starter. I may not be as anal as some brewers and makes sure that I have the exact cellcount for whatever gravity beer I am making, but I do make one for the above reasons I mentioned, namely peace of mid, and a reduction in lag time.

Seriously, that's one way to insure you have clean tasting beer, not to stress out or underpitch your yeast.
 
I use the smack packs almost exclusively and have never had a problem. If you follow the directions on the back, they prove they are viable in no time. All my beers have had very active fermentation without a starter. Just make sure you check the dates on them.
 
I agree with Revvy 100%. i always make a starter. That being said you can have a successful fermentation without one. I would recommend a starter for every beer but it is required for any beer over OG 1.060. Go to Mr. Malty, it is great website and you will learn how much you need from the calculator on there.
 
Well, it's completely against their advice and instructions from their microbiologist... but whatever Mr Malty says I guess!

From their site -

6. Do I need to make a starter for an Activator?

No. The Activator is designed to deliver professional pitch rates (6 million cells/ ml.) when directly added to 5 gallons of wort. ( <1.060 at 70 degrees). However, if a package is slow to swell, suspected of being mishandled, or if the date is approaching the six month shelf life it is a good idea to build the culture up with a starter. High gravity or low temperature fermentations require higher pitch rates. This can be achieved with inoculating with additional packages or making a starter.
 
Well, it's completely against their advice and instructions from their microbiologist... but whatever Mr Malty says I guess!

From their site -

6. Do I need to make a starter for an Activator?

No. The Activator is designed to deliver professional pitch rates (6 million cells/ ml.) when directly added to 5 gallons of wort. ( <1.060 at 70 degrees). However, if a package is slow to swell, suspected of being mishandled, or if the date is approaching the six month shelf life it is a good idea to build the culture up with a starter. High gravity or low temperature fermentations require higher pitch rates. This can be achieved with inoculating with additional packages or making a starter.

yeah, the manufacturer often has their way of doing things, but then other folks find out there's a better way to do things.

Look at kit instructions that say to bottle after a week...We KNOW there's a better way to make beers.

I'd have to say I'd go with Jamil and Mr Malty on this one....


The difference between a good beer and a great beer can simply be in making a starter.

And like I said, the biggest reason is so that you won't start an "is my yeast dead" thread... ;)
 
I still hold that the yeast companies know their products and as such, people dont really need to deviate from that. Sure, a yeast starter will be helpful. But in the end, those Activator packs, if done by the instructions on the back, will prove viability. I use them and I see active fermentation within hours. In fact, I have seen full on fermentation as little as 6-8 hours after pitching. Dont be so quick to jump on the starter bandwagon. Have faith that the microbiologists for these companies are smart people who have a clue.

PS - Those "are my yeast dead" threads are usually from beginners who didnt read or are impatient. Lets not group everyone under 1,000 posts in the noob category. Making a starter so you dont have those threads is a little synical I think. Not everyone fails at brewing on here.
 
Well, to further the discussion, there is an addition portion later on that states it really depends on the gravity of the beer. Thankfully Mr Malty uses batch size and gravity to assist in the calculation.


Wyeast Site -

There are many factors that lead to incomplete attenuation. At the beginning, it is very important to increase your pitch rates according to the original gravity of your beer. A good rule to follow is a million cells per milliliter per degree plato. This means that you need 20 million cells per ml for a 20 degree plato (1.080 specific gravity) beer, or 3 Activator packages for a 5 gallon batch. It is also important to remember that it is more difficult to get oxygen into the solution in a high gravity wort. At the end of fermentation, high alcohol levels, lack of nutrients, poor yeast health and lack of fermentable sugars can effect attenuation.
 
To the OP, if you're using a smack pack (whether making a starter or not) I would not smack it 2 days before you brew. Once smacked (assuming you've taken it out of the fridge and it's at room temp), it only needs a few hours to swell/proof before pitching.

FWIW, I'm in the starter camp for all of the reasons Revvy gave. One other advantage to starters is that by pitching a large healthy population of yeast, you reduce the effects/likelihood of getting an infection or suffering off-flavors due to infection.
 
Different pitch rates will affect the flavor of your beer. Not all brewers use the "recommended" pitch rate. Some use less, some use more. It all depends on what you want from your particular recipe. Yeast can be quite complicated and the answer lies in research and knowing what you want it to do.
 
I've only recently started using starters for liquid yeast, but I can honestly say I've noticed a huge difference when it comes to:

A. Decreasing the lag time between pitching and the beginning of noticeable fermentation signs.

B. Increasing how vigorously my beers ferment, in that prior to using starters I might or might not have needed a blowoff tube. With starters, it's been a foregone conclusion. That tells me that I've got a ton of happy and healthy yeast that are kicking some serious a$$ in my carboy. Which I can only perceive to be a very good thing.
 
I've used a smack pack before without a starter and smacked it like 2-3 hours before pitching. The package did in fact swell up so I suppose I was good. Bottom line is it fermented out just fine. I've also used dry yeast and rehydrated before pitching. That also feremnted just fine.

Actually, now that I'm thinking of it I was in my local brew store last week and a couple guys came in saying that they thought their yeast was dead as they had a stuck fermentation for 2 days. Guess that would not have happened had they made a starter.

I've never made a starter but I'm always looking for new and/or better ways of doing things. And sometimes just like trying new things for the hell of it. So I think I will try a starter as well this time around and see how it turns out.

Thanks for all the usefull info. :mug:
 
FWIW - I'm a relative newb, for my first 8 batches or so, I just smacked the pack and pitched it. On batch 9, i smacked the pack a little late, it didnt swell, but it didnt really have time and I just pitched it. Four or 5 days later, still no change in gravity so i backed it up with some dry yeast and got it going good. of course (insert boring details) and its the only brew I've got thats not been good so I'm just gonna let it hang out in bottles since i got the space and plenty of bottles and test one every few months or so

fast forward a bit, and getting back on subject - I just made my first starter the other night and will be doing such for the remainder of my brews that use liquid yeast. its not a lot of time or money and just makes sense
 
As an added note, you have a great excuse for the wifey. " Honey, i started this yeast two days ago and absolutely have to make this beer tonight..I know it's our anniversary, but I really hate to waste the lives of all of those poor little creatures".
 
I also agree with Revvy on this one. My first 6 - 8 batches of beer, I either smacked the pack or let the tube sit out until it hit room temp and pitched it in the wort. I know it will make decent beer that way.

I started making starters for the liquid yeast after that and my quality did improve. It is also nice to see fermentation kicking off in a few hours. I have had a few yeast batches that were getting close to the expiration date and the starter gave me peace of mind when I pitched them into the wort.

I can't think of any reason NOT to use a starter, other than no time to make one. It does no harm and only helps your beer :)
 
The key to liquid yeast is when they were made. The freshest pack (meaning like a couple of days old) contains about 100 billion cells and they are active. I am pretty sure you would be fine just pitching it without a starter. But say you have a pack that is 2 months old. Half of those cells are probably dead and could benefit from a starter. It will make sure they are healthy and put less stress on the yeast. The more stress on the yeast, the more problems you may have.
 
Oh and I only mentioned smacking the pack 2-3 days in advance because that's what the kit instructions say to do. I suppose that's not too accurate then? I know the one time I used the pack, I smacked it like 3 hours before and it swelled up just fine. Don't know what the deal is with 2-3 days. That seemed excessive to me as well.
 
I have a question regarding making a starter for a smack pack. I just got it in the mail today, and want to brew/pitch Saturday afternoon. I was going to make my starters tonight(one is a vial, the other is a smack pack).

Do you guys suggest smacking the pack now and letting it swell until I get home, then pitching the whole thing into the starter wort?

Or should I just open the outer package when I'm ready, and pitch only the yeast from the pack into the starter?

I'm sure both are fine, just wanted to see if there were any suggestions one way or the other.
 
From the horse's mouth.

From the Wyeast FAQ website:

3. Does the package need to be fully swollen before pitching?

No, The package can be pitched before activating, or at anytime during the activation process. The activation process "jump starts" the culture's metabolism, minimizing the lag phase.

You don't even really have to smack if you don't want to if you are making a starter, but you definitely don't need to wait for it to inflate. I'd personally smack it when I got home, then cook and eat dinner, clean up the kitchen, watch a little tv, THEN make my starter and pitch it in, giving it an hour or 2 for the stuff to help wake up the yeasties, but not necessarily enough for them to produce any co2 to inflate the pack.
 
Yeast starters DO IT! ....or Don't

Oh-look-This-thread-again.jpg
 
From the horse's mouth.



You don't even really have to smack if you don't want to if you are making a starter, but you definitely don't need to wait for it to inflate. I'd personally smack it when I got home, then cook and eat dinner, clean up the kitchen, watch a little tv, THEN make my starter and pitch it in, giving it an hour or 2 for the stuff to help wake up the yeasties, but not necessarily enough for them to produce any co2 to inflate the pack.

Great, thanks Rev.
 
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