Should I change my brew style?

[bruhaha]

Hi everyone! I have been brewing a number of years since the old days that cans of hopped liquid extract was the genesis of our hobby. Since then I have seen many advances including tons of options in ingredients and equipment.

My beginning years of brewing were extract based, but I shifted successfully to BIAB and am getting awesome beers with this method. I crush my own grains with a 3 roller mill, and my efficiency is even better than I hoped for when starting BIAB.

I have several kettles all the right size, tricked out with the goodies we all want and need, so I keep pondering going to a three vessel brewing system with sparging. BUT....am I simply adding work for myself? I think my BIAB beers are awesome, so will it be worth my while to invest in false bottoms and a few other minimal pieces of equipment? Will I benefit from the extra time, expense, effort AND cleanup (yuk) that MLT will throw my way.

Long story short....will 3 vessel brewing be a SIGNIFICANT benefit to me over BIAB? I am getting excellent efficiency and excellent beers BIAB, so is it worth it for me to look at changing just because I have most of the stuff????

 

[mrdauber64]

No, in my opinion it wouldn't be worth switching your method. You are still brewing all-grain, so changing how you create your wort from grains won't benifit your process.

I currently use the 3 vessel method with a cooler mash tun and that works for me. There were a couple reasons why did do BIAB.
--1. I didn't have a 15 gallon kettle to do a full volume mash and I the dunking sparge method seemed like too much work and would still require an additional pot.
--2. The mess involved of draining and squeezing the bag
--3. I don't have a hoist and I can't imagine doing a 25 lb. grain bill for an RIS and having to list that bag out of the pot and let it drain.

If you have figured out those issues, and the beer is where you want it, there is no reason to change your process. BIAB creates great beer and a lot of brewers swear by it.

Happy brewing!

 

[bruhaha]

No, in my opinion it wouldn't be worth switching your method. You are still brewing all-grain, so changing how you create your wort from grains won't benifit your process.

I currently use the 3 vessel method with a cooler mash tun and that works for me. There were a couple reasons why did do BIAB.
--1. I didn't have a 15 gallon kettle to do a full volume mash and I the dunking sparge method seemed like too much work and would still require an additional pot.
--2. The mess involved of draining and squeezing the bag
--3. I don't have a hoist and I can't imagine doing a 25 lb. grain bill for an RIS and having to list that bag out of the pot and let it drain.

If you have figured out those issues, and the beer is where you want it, there is no reason to change your process. BIAB creates great beer and a lot of brewers swear by it.

Happy brewing!

Yes, I have all the above figured out including the hoist/pulley which can be a real strain if not equipped. PLUS, I am darn near fully equipped with 15G kettles and the like for 3 vessel system. But as you say, if BIAB is scoring big points for me, I really don't see the advantage of 3 vessel as you pointed out. If I thought I'd get higher brewhouse % with 3 vessel, it would make sense. I don't believe I would see any real change in that value.

 

[chickypad]

Sounds to me like you'd be crazy to change. I've done the opposite, gone from brewing all 3 vessel to about a 10/90 split in favor of smaller BIAB batches.

 

[bruhaha]

Sounds to me like you'd be crazy to change. I've done the opposite, gone from brewing all 3 vessel to about a 10/90 split in favor of smaller BIAB batches.

I guess I just needed to hear this. BIAB is simple, effective and enjoyable. I have high quality kettles, Wilser BIAB bags w/pulley and really enjoy this streamlined process. Unless 3 vessel would raise the overall quality of my beers by 10-15%, I'd be nuts to create more work for myself. At this point with BIAB, I look forward to brew days, and if shifting over for no real gain, I'm am hearing for y'all that I may not gain much in overall quality.

 

[Aristotelian]

I don't know why you would want to change from something that is working for you. Maybe you get a few extra efficiency points, but at the cost of new equipment and more complicated process it doesn't seem worth it. Also, even if you got 10-15% increase in efficiency, that would not change your quality one bit. You would get the same beer at slightly less cost.

 

[douglasbarbin]

I am a 3-vessel brewer who occasionally does BIAB (did a 10-gallon batch last weekend, for example). If your current process is sound and you are making awesome beers already, I don't think that you will get a significant improvement by switching to 3-vessel. I can tell you that it is a LOT more work and it takes a LOT longer, especially if you do the "no-sparge" variety of BIAB (which is what I do whenever I BIAB).

The only real benefits of 3-vessel are that you can most likely control your mash temp a little more accurately, and if you decide to do any kind of recirculating mash, you will already have most of the equipment you need to do that. In fact, technically, you can do RIMS or HERMS or direct-fire recirculation with BIAB, although I rarely see it done.

So I usually brew 3-vessel because that's how my system was built, that's what I am used to, I know what my efficiency will be, etc. If I had to design a new system today, it would probably be a single-vessel BIAB setup just because my time is much more valuable than any small efficiency gains I might obtain.

Just my 2 cents, but if BIAB is working for you, I don't think that 3-vessel is going to change much other than the length of your brew day.

 

[bruhaha]

I don't know why you would want to change from something that is working for you. Maybe you get a few extra efficiency points, but at the cost of new equipment and more complicated process it doesn't seem worth it. Also, even if you got 10-15% increase in efficiency, that would not change your quality one bit. You would get the same beer at slightly less cost.

You hit the nail on the head...or answered my underlying question. Will 3 vessel brewing increase the QUALITY of my beers as opposed to BIAB. True, I make eek out a tiny bit more sugars from my mash conversion with 3 vessel , but if this process doesn't make my beers go from awesome to BEYOND awesome, what's the bother?

I like what I'm doing and thanks for the vote of confidence!

 

[doug293cz]

Going 3-vessel won't improve the quality of your beers. If your comfortable with the BIAB process, then there is really no reason to change.

You may or may not see a lauter efficiency improvement with 3-vessel; depends on how aggressively you sparge. However, the coarser crush typically needed for 3-vessel might reduce your conversion efficiency, which could negate any gain in lauter efficiency (mash efficiency equals conversion efficiency times lauter efficiency.)

With batch sparging, the 3-vessel grain absorption rate will be close to 0.12 gal/lb. With BIAB the grain absorption will usually be between 0.06 and 0.10 gal/lb, depending on whether, and how aggressively, you squeeze. You can see in the chart below the large effect grain absorption has on lauter efficiency for both no sparge and batch sparge. Fly sparging (if done well) can give you a few percentage points higher efficiency than batch sparging.



Edit: I really should remove "BIAB" from the title of the chart, as it is valid for a traditional MLT process as well.

Brew on

 

[douglasbarbin]

Kind of off-topic, but I figured I'd mention it: I always see people saying that you can crush finer with BIAB, but I haven't found that to be the case. Meaning, I set my mill to the tightest possible gap regardless of whether I am doing BIAB or 3-vessel. I get a ton of flour and it doesn't seem to affect anything when I use all 3 vessels. Maybe I just have a really awesome false bottom; I don't know. Anyway, I always read that (as @doug293cz mentioned) but I haven't found that to be the case in my experience. I always recirculate my mash, so that may make a difference as far as setting the grain bed.

 

[doug293cz]

Kind of off-topic, but I figured I'd mention it: I always see people saying that you can crush finer with BIAB, but I haven't found that to be the case. Meaning, I set my mill to the tightest possible gap regardless of whether I am doing BIAB or 3-vessel. I get a ton of flour and it doesn't seem to affect anything when I use all 3 vessels. Maybe I just have a really awesome false bottom; I don't know. Anyway, I always read that (as @doug293cz mentioned) but I haven't found that to be the case in my experience. I always recirculate my mash, so that may make a difference as far as setting the grain bed.

I'd be interested in the finer details of your recirc system. There are multiple reports on HBT from folks who had to coarsen their crush in order to be able to recirculate successfully. Understanding how you avoid that problem would be valuable to many brewers around here.

Brew on

 

[bruhaha]

Kind of off-topic, but I figured I'd mention it: I always see people saying that you can crush finer with BIAB, but I haven't found that to be the case. Meaning, I set my mill to the tightest possible gap regardless of whether I am doing BIAB or 3-vessel. I get a ton of flour and it doesn't seem to affect anything when I use all 3 vessels. Maybe I just have a really awesome false bottom; I don't know. Anyway, I always read that (as @doug293cz mentioned) but I haven't found that to be the case in my experience. I always recirculate my mash, so that may make a difference as far as setting the grain bed.

I set my mill pretty tight but my 9 amp 1/2" drill pushes it right on thru. My grist is about like stone cut oatmeal with a small amount of flour. Eff% is always high.

 

[douglasbarbin]

I'd be interested in the finer details of your recirc system. There are multiple reports on HBT from folks who had to coarsen their crush in order to be able to recirculate successfully. Understanding how you avoid that problem would be valuable to many brewers around here.

Brew on

I don't know that I do anything out of the ordinary. I have a custom false-bottom for my 20.5 gallon mash tun, made from a Bayou Classic kettle with some reflective insulation around the outside and lid.

The pickup tube sits completely underneath the false bottom (as opposed to some of them where it goes down through the middle of the false bottom). The pickup is simply a barb connected to a 90-degree coupling (although the pickup sits at an angle closer to 45-degrees, due to the fact that the barb contacts the bottom of the kettle. So the pickup is very short and it is located low and at the front of the kettle, with a nipple going through the kettle and a ball valve on the other side (outside). The ball valve has another 90-degree elbow on it with a camlock male attached, so when I hook up my hoses, they are hanging straight down.

The return is a Loc-Line on the inside of the mash tun and a camlock male on the outside of the tun. I use a Chugger pump that is set up pretty much exactly like this. I typically leave the outlet valve wide open when recirculating, although it doesn't seem to make a whole lot of difference whether or not I restrict it. I have also tried starting the pump immediately after doughing in and also after waiting a while for the grain to settle, and that doesn't seem to make much difference either.

For what it's worth, I have noticed that there is probably some channeling going on when I fly sparge, which I assume is due to the location of the pickup. I have previously used a different pickup that extended closer to the center of the kettle, and I probably got better lauter efficiency that way. But I like the short pickup I am using now, because I can drain the mash tun pretty much completely without leaving any wort behind. If I tilt the tun, it leaves less than a cup of wort behind.

So I don't know if there's something unusual about my setup or if it's just dumb luck, but I have had no issues setting my Barley Crusher as tight as possible. Last brew I did was 50% wheat and I still had no issues.

 

[chickypad]

You hit the nail on the head...or answered my underlying question. Will 3 vessel brewing increase the QUALITY of my beers as opposed to BIAB.

Sounds like you are already reassured, but I would definitely say the answer is a big no IME. My beers are better than ever now brewing BIAB, which I attribute to just general experience. Step mashes are the one thing that my 3 vessel/recirculting system is good for but I do mostly single infusion.

 

[doug293cz]

@douglasbarbin Sounds pretty standard. No revelations in there about why you don't have trouble with recirc while others do. Thanks.

Brew on

 

[Moose_MI]

Yes