Shot for an IPA, ended up with a double.... 🤔

[asg816]

Ok....

So, this is the second beer I’ve brewed on my own (extract - 5 gal partial boil using distilled H20) & I keep overshooting the OG by 0.012/0.013 pts. I took to using the brewsmith 3 pgrm to help with calculations while I become more familiar with them & despite adjusting for virtually every variable I can think of, I’ve consistently, and substantially, overshot estimated OG’s (used the app for a group brew & the same thing happened). Arguably, this is the best problem to have but now I feel I’m in over my head & experience level. I’d also like to know how this keep happening...

On Sunday, I brewed a beer that was estimated to be 1.070 OG (a hoppier mod of my original beer which came in at 1.060 [a beer that was originally estimated to come in at 1.047]). Instead, it came in at 1.082. I was expecting to ferment for 5 days, throw in an ounce of dry hops and let it condition for 10 more before bottling & letting em condition for two weeks at 72F before chilling. First round turned out great. That being said, I’m not at all sure how to modify the time tables here for what has turned into a double ipa for all intents and purposes. And most ppl don’t seem to agree...well, anywhere.

After doing some initial research, recon & heavy consulting of Palmer’s How to Brew, I figured I’d practice flexibility by just extending those time tables. I also figured I’d adapt the recipe by double dry hopping since I’ve got 2 oz of Citra & Galaxy hops left over. Does anyone have experience brewing & bottle conditioning IIPA’s without all the fancy gadgets? If so, how does this time table sound?

Fermentation began btwn 14-18 hours using US-05. (Pitched a tad low at 66F). Side note: after much reading and consulting, I plan to keep this in the primary sitting on yeast until bottling. Just sounds more romantic & more importantly, efficient.

- 16 days in primary @ 64-68F, take gravity reading, add first addition dry hops (1 oz)
- 18 days in primary, add second addition dry hops (1 oz)
- @ 21 days, add priming sugar, bottle & let condition at 70-72F for two weeks before chilling at 43F for one week minimum. Then, UNBOTTLING DAY!

Am I on the right track here, or have I overshot/undershot the ideal? Any thoughts or suggestions about this timeline from experience (direct or indirect) would be greatly appreciated? Thanks y’all.

 

[S-Met]

Well.. how about your recipe to start, attention to extract and water volumes. With extract, I rarely bother with an og. Your dme/lme are notorious for giving false OG reading due to incomplete mixing. The limited added sugars from steeping grains/partial mash add a negligible amount of sugar and I don't calculate it as it's not significant enough to me.

Regarding extract, dme = 45, lme =37 points/lb/gal. Meaning 1lb dme/1gal h2o gives a gravity of 1.045.
1lb dme Into 5gal h2o is .045/5=9 or 1.009
Source: either brewers friend or this site, though probably both.

Regarding the time: yeast and temperature play a big role, but so does the beer itself. Its a cop-out answer, but its done when its done: stable fg. Might be 2 days, might be 2 weeks.

 

[asg816]

Well.. how about your recipe to start, attention to extract and water volumes. With extract, I rarely bother with an og. Your dme/lme are notorious for giving false OG reading due to incomplete mixing. The limited added sugars from steeping grains/partial mash add a negligible amount of sugar and I don't calculate it as it's not significant enough to me.

NOTE: I live at an altitude of 5,511 ft. so I factored in longer boil times & more hops for better hop utilization. What I didn’t consider was greater boil off... All H20 is distilled/RO. All hops are pellets.

1). Steep 1 lb caramel/crystal malt 10L & 4 oz. caramel crystal 40L for 30 mins at 155F in 1.31 gallons of H20

2). Add 2.26 gallons of H20 & bring to boil.

3). Remove from flame: Add 9 lbs of Breiss Golden/Light DME slowly to avoid excess clumping & caramelizing (Return to Boil, Start 60 min timer, Add 60 min hop addition - 1 oz. Mosaic).

4). @ 30 mins, add 1 oz Mosaic

5). @ 10 mins, add 1 oz Citra + 1 oz Galaxy

6). @ 5 mins, add 1 oz Citra + 1 oz Galaxy + 1 tsp Irish moss

7). End boil: immediately transfer into a bucket with 2 gallons of chilled, distilled H20 & slosh around before beg. ice bath.

8).Chill temp to 75F & pitch yeast (I lost track of time cleaning up & pitched at 66F after transferring back and forth btwn chill bucket and fermenter to aerate considerably).

9). Place fermenter in basement & hold temp between 64-68F.

10). I’d like to use my remaining 2 oz of hops to double dry hop (1 oz Citra for 5 days, 1 oz Galaxy for 3 days - before bottling). I’m just not so sure when to add them....or if I should just do a single dry hop given the amount.

And thanks! I didn’t realize that extract brewing frequently gives false OG readings; although, it makes sense. That could be a notable part of the issue. That being said, I could shoot for the estimated FG outlined in brew smith & hopefully replicated by hand calculations, but with potentially two uncertain variables, could I trust those numbers?

 

[VikeMan]

With an extract batch that's topped off after the boil, if you got a gravity significantly higher than the recipe called for, either the recipe designer (even if that's you and BeerSmith) screwed up (unlikely), or one or more of these things happened...

- You didn't top off with enough water to reach the correct total volume
- You didn't mix the wort and top off water thoroughly before taking the hydrometer sample.
- Hydrometer Measurement error.

That being said, I could shoot for the estimated FG outlined in brew smith & hopefully replicated by hand calculations, but with potentially two uncertain variables, could I trust those numbers?

I'f you're not sure what your OG was, the FG prediction becomes even more of a crap shoot. IMO all you can really do at this point is wait until after the FG is stable to package. If you want, take that FG and the predicted apparent attenuation, and work backwards into an estimated OG, then calculate an estimated ABV.

Also, looking at your process, it looks like you boiled and then added the wort to a predetermined amount of cold water, without regard to the actual volume of wort after the boil. You need to make sure the total volume is what you had planned if you want the gravity to be correct.

 

[Calder]

As noted, extract doesn't mix well. A higher gravity is usually from taking a sample from a spigot at the bottom of the fermenter. Samples taken from the top tend to give lower readings.

Extract recipes can be easily calculated to get a rough estimate of where they should be. Most apps will do it for you. DME is 46 points per lb and LME is 36 points, and it is pretty consistent across the industry.

Steeping a lb of crystal will get ~ 16 points (you will get more if you use a base malt with it as it will convert some of the starches too). So with 1.25 lbs of crystal you got ~20 points. 9 Lbs of DME gets you 414 points. I think that was your recipe. So total points will be 414+20 = 434 (or somewhere close). Divide the points by the final volume, and you have the gravity. For 5 gallons (US gallons) gravity would be ~ 1.087, which is close to your recorded 1.082 (if sample was from top of fermenter, your reading could be low).

Just a thought. Did you add the extract as LME into the calculator. That would give you 20 (points for the crystal) and 324 (points for the Extract - LME). Total = 344 points, or estimated gravity for 5 gallons = 1.069. I think you said the calculator gave you a 1.070 OG.

Should be a decent beer. Unfortunately extract tends to finish with a high FG, and I prefer a drier beer, so probably a little sweet for my tastes (good thing I am not drinking it). To get a drier beer you could replace about 10% of the extract with plain table sugar, you will not notice it and since the sugar completely ferments out, the result is a few less points in the FG.

Hops: I love Mosaic and Citra. Just a couple of comments. 1) I would never waste Mosaic as a bittering hop, I would use it in the last 5 minutes, flame out, or dry hop. Anything over 20 minutes in the boil and you lose all the flavor. 2) The 30 minute hop is a waste, either add it at the start of the boil if you want bittering, or add it at the end if you want flavor/aroma. 3) There is a lot of debate over how long dry hops should be in the beer. I just toss mine in about 5 days before bottling, I see no need for a double hop, just add them at the same time, and don't worry if they are left in a few extra days because you couldn't get to bottling.

Good luck with the beer. I hope I have resolved your gravity issue.

 

[asg816]

As noted, extract doesn't mix well. A higher gravity is usually from taking a sample from a spigot at the bottom of the fermenter. Samples taken from the top tend to give lower readings.

Extract recipes can be easily calculated to get a rough estimate of where they should be. Most apps will do it for you. DME is 46 points per lb and LME is 36 points, and it is pretty consistent across the industry.

Steeping a lb of crystal will get ~ 16 points (you will get more if you use a base malt with it as it will convert some of the starches too). So with 1.25 lbs of crystal you got ~20 points. 9 Lbs of DME gets you 414 points. I think that was your recipe. So total points will be 414+20 = 434 (or somewhere close). Divide the points by the final volume, and you have the gravity. For 5 gallons (US gallons) gravity would be ~ 1.087, which is close to your recorded 1.082 (if sample was from top of fermenter, your reading could be low).

Just a thought. Did you add the extract as LME into the calculator. That would give you 20 (points for the crystal) and 324 (points for the Extract - LME). Total = 344 points, or estimated gravity for 5 gallons = 1.069. I think you said the calculator gave you a 1.070 OG.

Should be a decent beer. Unfortunately extract tends to finish with a high FG, and I prefer a drier beer, so probably a little sweet for my tastes (good thing I am not drinking it). To get a drier beer you could replace about 10% of the extract with plain table sugar, you will not notice it and since the sugar completely ferments out, the result is a few less points in the FG.

Hops: I love Mosaic and Citra. Just a couple of comments. 1) I would never waste Mosaic as a bittering hop, I would use it in the last 5 minutes, flame out, or dry hop. Anything over 20 minutes in the boil and you lose all the flavor. 2) The 30 minute hop is a waste, either add it at the start of the boil if you want bittering, or add it at the end if you want flavor/aroma. 3) There is a lot of debate over how long dry hops should be in the beer. I just toss mine in about 5 days before bottling, I see no need for a double hop, just add them at the same time, and don't worry if they are left in a few extra days because you couldn't get to bottling.

Good luck with the beer. I hope I have resolved your gravity issue.

Wow! This is incredibly helpful, thank you. I was debating the 30 min hop addition based on what I read, especially with a lower AA mosaic.

I prefer a drier beer myself, so I’ll definitely consider adding the sugar instead of the extra 0.9 lbs of extract. I wasn’t sure how to adjust the recipe for a drier beer yet.

I also appreciate your thoughts on dry hopping. With all the mixed info and charged opinions online it’s hard to get a good pulse.

Lastly, I’ll go check my recipe on BeerSmith, but I’m pretty sure it was set to DME. I’ve never actually used LME. Either way, I prefer the calculations you provided for greater peace of mind. Thanks again!

 

[Calder]

I have an old version of BeerSmith, and with your ingredients it gives me 1.086 in 5 gallons (close to my estimate of 1.087).

Adding 10% sugar is a simple quick way to dry a beer a little, with little effect on flavor of the final beer. I think it improves an extract beer because it does reduce the FG. A better way of making a drier beer is to do a mini mash with a few lbs of grain, and mash low.

For example you could have added 1.75 lbs of Pale Malt to the Crystal and mashed/steeped the crushed grain in 4.5 qts of water (1.5 qts/lb) at 148 - 150 F for 20 minutes or so. Drain the liquid into your pot, then sparge (rinse) the grains with water at 170 F (3 qts, but volume is not critical), drain grains and add liquid to your pot. This would give you about 1.5 gallons in the pot. Add water to where you would normally boil, and brew as normal, but add all the extract at the end, after flame out. Mashing at 148 will make the resulting wort very fermentable. The extra sugars from the crystal and the Pale Malt would be roughly equivalent to 1.3 lbs of DME, so you could reduce your recipe by 1.3 lbs of DME; this will also save you money (price varies, but Pale Malt is about $1.50 per lb for small amounts (I get mine for less than $1), and now compare $1.50 x 1.75 = 2.60 vs the price of 1.3 lbs of DME - probably about $7).

You can buy 5 gallon paint straining bags from the hardware store to use for the mash. Doing a partial mash will improve the beer and make it cheaper. And you don't have to restrict your self to just 3 lbs, but 3 lbs is easily manageable in a couple of pots on the stove top.

 

[Calder]

Oops, when I change the method to extract, it gives me 1.080 as the FG. I had it set to Partial Mash, which will give greater efficiency for the grains. It gives the extract as having 44 points per lb vs the 45 that I use (I do not I said 46 above, which is wrong).

 

[asg816]

I have an old version of BeerSmith, and with your ingredients it gives me 1.086 in 5 gallons (close to my estimate of 1.087).
View attachment 681355

Adding 10% sugar is a simple quick way to dry a beer a little, with little effect on flavor of the final beer. I think it improves an extract beer because it does reduce the FG. A better way of making a drier beer is to do a mini mash with a few lbs of grain, and mash low.

For example you could have added 1.75 lbs of Pale Malt to the Crystal and mashed/steeped the crushed grain in 4.5 qts of water (1.5 qts/lb) at 148 - 150 F for 20 minutes or so. Drain the liquid into your pot, then sparge (rinse) the grains with water at 170 F (3 qts, but volume is not critical), drain grains and add liquid to your pot. This would give you about 1.5 gallons in the pot. Add water to where you would normally boil, and brew as normal, but add all the extract at the end, after flame out. Mashing at 148 will make the resulting wort very fermentable. The extra sugars from the crystal and the Pale Malt would be roughly equivalent to 1.3 lbs of DME, so you could reduce your recipe by 1.3 lbs of DME; this will also save you money (price varies, but Pale Malt is about $1.50 per lb for small amounts (I get mine for less than $1), and now compare $1.50 x 1.75 = 2.60 vs the price of 1.3 lbs of DME - probably about $7).

You can buy 5 gallon paint straining bags from the hardware store to use for the mash. Doing a partial mash will improve the beer and make it cheaper. And you don't have to restrict your self to just 3 lbs, but 3 lbs is easily manageable in a couple of pots on the stove top.

This is really interesting. The reduced price point is one among many reasons I've been interested in slowly moving towards all-grain brewing (probably BIAB to start b/c i can't afford all the awesome equipment yet), as well as the benefits of greater efficiency and control. It costs about $5 per lb of DME and $15.95 for 3 lb bags, which makes brew days pricey, and the weeks of fermentation after a lot more anxiety provoking since I'm ending up with "significantly"(?) higher OGs. However, it's a bit intimidating to imagine making that transition immediately before nailing down the process like I'm trying to do now. I figured the wisest/safest way to transition would be to move to full boils w/ extract first, then, move to partial extract brewing followed by BIAB.

I've read a lot about folks who add their DME to the end of their boils instead of at the beginning, and as @VikeMan stated above, I need to be shifting my focus from predetermined quantities of water to whatever gives me the final amount I need to match the pre-fermentation goal. The concern is further watering down my beer (Someone left a comment somewhere using an amazing analogy where they compared extract brewing to watering down your pasta sauce before serving and that has weighed heavily in my mind ever since haha). That being said, the ability to be flexible and make adjustments seems like an essential skill when brewing anything. So, would I add the DME at flame out before topping off with water or after? I'd imagine before. And how might that affect my steeping/whirlpool hop additions? For instance, my next experimental recipe, hopefully, is visible below... Obviously, the recipe as outlined in pgrm, has me adding the DME at the start of the boil - would I just modify that by adding it at the end, stir everything in then chill down to 175 and add my steeped/whirlpooled hops? Thanks again, by the way. Your responses are incredibly helpful.