Setting a Monster Mill Correctly

[user 246304]

Off topic No. 2, and I am sorry, but hearing of these adjustment issues makes me question whether I should go to the MM at all....was going to pair it with the AAW 180 HP motor. 20 years ago I put tons of grain through a simple fixed JSP and drill and got excellent crushes. KISS?...

 

[IslandLizard]

[...] If the combined grain bill contains a significant amount of wheat malts (with barley malts) and is run together, the efficiency drops like a rock due to the hardness and smaller size of the wheat kernel.

Do most brewers run the grains separately and adjust the gap differently (wheat tighter), or it is simply easier to add more wheat to the grain bill compensating for the efficiency loss you know you'll have by grinding together?

Yes, I mill small kernel grain (wheat, rye, flaked adjuncts, etc.) with a tighter gap. ~0.026" for those, vs. 0.034" for barley. That's on an MM2 (1.5" regular rollers).

That means I usually have to reset the mill gap once during a milling session.
[Edit] From what I understand on a 3-roller mill the gaps work a little differently, and isn't as simple to adjust.

If the small kernel grain doesn't get crushed well enough, their contribution will obviously lack.

Anecdote:
A few years ago during a beer judging class I had a wheat ale from a homebrewing couple. It tasted like no wheat was used! They were going to re-brew it, and when they returned from the LHBS' grain room, I asked for a peek in their bag of milled grain. Tons of whole wheat kernels! That explains it! I told them to remill it at least, or let's see if we can tighten that gap. Sadly, they ignored my advice and left with the bag as it was...

 

[Morrey]

Off topic No. 2, and I am sorry, but hearing of these adjustment issues makes me question whether I should go to the MM at all....was going to pair it with the AAW 180 HP motor. 20 years ago I put tons of grain through a simple fixed JSP and drill and got excellent crushes. KISS?...

Honestly, I don't consider my situation an issue, rather it is more or less the nature of the beast grinding wheat along with barley. These grains are dissimilar in size and hardness which makes one "universal" grinding gap very difficult.

I built a motorized setup for my MM3 with the AAW 180 rpm motor and cannot be happier. You are well on the right track in my opinion.

FWIW, these mills can have a bit of learning curve understanding how achieve the optimal adjustment. I have used a cereal killer, a Kegco 3 roller and an MM3. I have picked these mills up along the way when I see a deal and it may come as part of a package from a brewer throwing in the towel.

But once you learn to set the mill correctly after some trial and error, it is not as intimidating as it sounds. Don't be discouraged as a properly dialed in mill makes your brewing experience most rewarding.

 

[Morrey]

Yes, I mill small kernel grain (wheat, rye, flaked adjuncts, etc.) with a tighter gap. ~0.026" for those, vs. 0.034" for barley. That's on an MM2 (1.5" regular rollers).

That means I usually have to reset the mill gap once during a milling session.

If the small kernel grain doesn't get crushed well enough, their contribution will obviously lack.

Anecdote:
A few years ago during a beer judging class I had a wheat ale from a homebrewing couple. It tasted like no wheat was used! They were going to re-brew it, and when they returned from the LHBS' grain room, I asked for a peek in their bag of milled grain. Tons of whole wheat kernels! That explains it! I told them to remill it at least, or let's see if we can tighten that gap. Sadly, they ignored my advice and left with the bag as it was...

Gap setting can be painfully obvious when efficiency drops 15-20% as a result of grinding wheat (and other adjuncts) alongside barley. I'd say this 15-20% loss is a direct result of the wheat portion of the grain bill being poorly crushed. I plan to try resetting my gap and running the wheat separately to keep my efficiency percentages consistent.

 

[user 246304]

Oh sorry, Morrey - I should have been clearer. I fully get the notion of different grains' needs. I was obviously being too lazy in reading the thread. I was talking of reading some things about adjustment drift and needing to re-calibrate every few days, much like a pH meter requiring same.

Off day, brain might as well be set to "steady state," so ignore this poster....

Thanks for your post however, - does help. OP, apologies.

 

[Morrey]

Oh sorry, Morrey - I should have been clearer. I fully get the notion of different grains' needs. I was obviously being too lazy in reading the thread. I was talking of reading some things about adjustment drift and needing to re-calibrate every few days, much like a pH meter requiring same.

Off day, brain might as well be set to "steady state," so ignore this poster....

Thanks for your post however, - does help. OP, apologies.

Heck, no need to apologize as we are all in this together. The more we share our thoughts and process, the better we all become.

I haven't noted my MM3 being bad about coming off calibration. I have a sneaking suspicion folks may be grinding dissimilar grains together just as we are discussing now, then blaming the mill for gap drifting. The tough part of analysis is narrowing down the real fault and making the proper adjustment.

If a ph meter was made that never needed to be calibrated, I'd buy one today before the sun went down. LOL All good!

 

[DurtyChemist]

What kind of brewhouse do you use?

Mill gap setting is a compromise between efficiency and your brewing set up. If you sparge you'll want it a bit more coarse if your BIAB you'll want a fine to very fine crush.

Igloo cooler. Batch sparge.

 

[IslandLizard]

[...] If I set my gap on the MM3 for my typical BIAB grind with strictly barley malts [...]

What is your "typical BIAB" gap?

I'm asking because BIAB grinds are usually quite a bit finer already than say, fly sparge grinds or even batch sparge grinds. At a BIAB gap I'm surprised that wheat not getting a decent crush. Do you see whole wheat kernels or large chunks of it?

Is that a 15-20% efficiency drop in recipes containing 40-50% wheat malt? If so, maybe a slightly tighter overall crush (and/or run through 2x) and a bit longer mash (add 15-20 mins) can fix that.

 

[IslandLizard]

Ah, just thought of something, how do you sparge that bag?
Wheat (and rye, etc.) are very gummy. They make the grist hang on to a lot of wort and prevent thorough draining out.

 

[Morrey]

What is your "typical BIAB" gap?

I'm asking because BIAB grinds are usually quite a bit finer already than say, fly sparge grinds or even batch sparge grinds. At a BIAB gap I'm surprised that wheat not getting a decent crush. Do you see whole wheat kernels or large chunks of it?

Is that a 15-20% efficiency drop in recipes containing 40-50% wheat malt? If so, maybe a slightly tighter overall crush (and/or run through 2x) and a bit longer mash (add 15-20 mins) can fix that.

Good questions. I set the gap between the top roller and bottom roller (MM3) to .037. The instructions suggest to start over .040 maybe up to .045 and evaluate the crush. I backed mine down slowly watching efficiency and feel .037 is a nicely fine BIAB grind for barley malts. Last beer used 40% wheat and the efficiency went way down which surprised me. Ph was stable at 5.30 15 min into the mash, I mashed at 150F on the money, even went 70 min vs 60 min mash. I think I am so familiar with the process I didn't really look closely at the grind....my bad. But for the sake of argument, I plan to keep the wheat separate and reduce my gap but keep the barley gap at .037. The wheat may be my first place to reevaluate.

***Let me add that I have established efficiency numbers with multiple lagers containing no adjuncts

Ah, just thought of something, how do you sparge that bag?
Wheat (and rye, etc.) are very gummy. They make the grist hang on to a lot of wort and prevent thorough draining out.

My sparges are pretty thorough. I have an Arbor Fab 400 uM basket with a press plate to fit. I'll pull the basket (pulley/chain) and press hard with the plate, then rough up the grain bed and pour 1/2 G of warm RO water over the grains to rinse sparge them. After pressing again, I am only absorbing 1/2 gallon of water in a 10# grain bill.

I know what you mean about wheat and rye sparges...they make a gummy mess. I honestly believe your original advice to mill the wheat separately with a reduced roller gap is going to bump my efficiency back where it belongs. I'll report back after my next beer (Hoppy Wheat w/Lemongrass) this weekend which is 50% wheat and 50% two row.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Nothing like a corona mill to put a good crush on wheat and rye, as these are huskless kernels and don't crack open like barley. A burr mill will grind the wheat and rye open unlike a roller mills one quick squeeze.....

For 28 bucks you can keep a corona milll on the side and not have to futz with the gap of your barley roller mill....

 

[Morrey]

Nothing like a corona mill to put a good crush on wheat and rye, as these are huskless kernels and don't crack open like barley. A burr mill will grind the wheat and rye open unlike a roller mills one quick squeeze.....

For 28 bucks you can keep a corona milll on the side and not have to futz with the gap of your barley roller mill....

Awesome, Wilser! I have a Corona mill sitting idle in my brew cave. Good tip!

 

[RM-MN]

Awesome, Wilser! I have a Corona mill sitting idle in my brew cave. Good tip!

Just one time, use the Corona mill for barley, then wheat, then rye and notice the difference in how hard it is to crank. That will tell you much about the hardness/toughness of the grains. I hate to mill rye with my Corona mill.

 

[Morrey]

I threaded a hex head bolt in my mill so I could turn it with a hand drill. I’ll have to play with the adjustment and get the grist size right for wheat.

 

[Dcpcooks]

Igloo cooler. Batch sparge.

I'd start at 36 and see how your sparge flows. Take some good notes and compare your efficiency to older batches. I'd expect you'll see a few points better. You can tighten the gap a bit after you see how the bed flows when your going to the kettle.

You could look into conditioning the grain and mill finer if you desire.

Personally I prefer to have a good filter bed and a nice stuck sparge brew day. So I run around 36-38 on my set up. I still get 78% efficiency and I can recirculate without concern. A batch sparge should allow you to tighten it up a bit and still get good flow. Cheers!

 

[Morrey]

Just one time, use the Corona mill for barley, then wheat, then rye and notice the difference in how hard it is to crank. That will tell you much about the hardness/toughness of the grains. I hate to mill rye with my Corona mill.

No doubt you make a good point "feeling" the differences of these malts with the burr of a corona grinder. I like to taste sample various grains at my LHBS, and the difference to the tooth of wheat/rye vs barley is very obvious.

 

[riisefrutti]

I have a mm3 and get waaaaaaay to fine crush, even with 0,065".
Anyone who has encountered the same issue?

Attached image shows crush with 0,055"

 

[Dog House Brew]

I have a mm3 and get waaaaaaay to fine crush, even with 0,065".
Anyone who has encountered the same issue?

Attached image shows crush with 0,055"

I had issues until I put a router speed control on my drill. I had problems with it shredding the husks and made a ton of flour milling too fast. I’m now set at
.035 and turn the speed down to about 250rpm. I’m also now conditioning the grain. My husks are whole and crush is fantastic.

 

[riisefrutti]

I use a crank handle with my mm3...

 

[Dog House Brew]

That blows holes in that idea.
I thought the fixed gap roller was .060. I assume you checked to make sure that is the gap? I’m stumped! Sorry I don’t have an answer.

 

[riisefrutti]

I have checked the gap once. But Ill check it once more.

Thank you Dog House Brew

 

[Dog House Brew]

I have checked the gap once. But Ill check it once more.

Thank you Dog House Brew

I would also make sure the gap you set for the adjustable rollers is the same on each end. I would stick a few credit cards in from the bottom on each side and tighten the set screws. Something sounds out of whack. Let us know on what you find.

 

[DurtyChemist]

I'd start at 36 and see how your sparge flows. Take some good notes and compare your efficiency to older batches. I'd expect you'll see a few points better. You can tighten the gap a bit after you see how the bed flows when your going to the kettle.

You could look into conditioning the grain and mill finer if you desire.

Personally I prefer to have a good filter bed and a nice stuck sparge brew day. So I run around 36-38 on my set up. I still get 78% efficiency and I can recirculate without concern. A batch sparge should allow you to tighten it up a bit and still get good flow. Cheers!

I have a pump and I'd LOVE to be able to do a continuous recirculation. I have parts/dreams of doing a 3 keg single tier setup with pumps so part of this might be moving towards the end goal. Once I get the gap set to where I like it it's one less component to mess with and one step closer to consistent brewing.

Oh and I had a nice stuck sparge. 20% oats will do it without rice hulls I learned.