Semi-auto BIAB

[Owly055]

I've been striving to cut brew day hours down by various strategies, including extremely short mashes, and reduced boil times, crash cooling to pitch temp ( I'm down to 5 min ), and in general efficient use of time. Today I hit one hour 40 minutes start to finish, including cleanup and put away, but I compromised with a reduced boil time, and a 20 minute mash. I compensated for the presumably lower attenuation, by eliminating carapils, and using only a tiny amount of crystal 120 (a few ounces) instead of half a pound of a lighter crystal. Probably not a particularly good choice. I also added 8 ounces of corn sugar in a 2.5 gallon brew. The idea being to keep the known unfermentables down to a minimum, and utilize the unfermentables created by the process. My 20 minute mash hit about 90% efficiency due to the extremely fine crush (double with .010 for the second). I will end up with more trub naturally...but not a lot more.

I'm looking at building a semi auto BIAB system. My idea is that I can start my brew late in the evening, by simply doughing in with 130F tap water. My PID controller will be set for 152F, the pump will be primed and ready to go, and a timer will turn power on for the relay that operates a hot plate, and pump, at about 4:00 AM. At 6:00 AM when I usually get up, the mash will be complete, and all I will have to do is take out the pumping system, lift the pot onto the gas stove, and crank the heat to it, lift the bag out and squeeze it. measure hops additions and add them, chill, transfer, and pitch.
This will cut the entire mash time out of my brew day..... I'll be multi tasking... sleeping while brewing ;-). It will allow me to return to a courser crush for less trub, and do a full hour (or more) mash, and an hour boil without committing nearly as much time to the process.

I have ideas for further automating the process, and will implement them as time and funds become available ................. probably never ;-) .........


H.W.

 

[wingedcoyote]

I wouldn't dough in at 130 and leave it overnight, at that range you're definitely getting some enzymatic activity... I don't remember the technical details, but I would expect very thin beer to be the result. Other than that it sounds like a good system. Perhaps starting with actually cold water would work? Although you might get some bacterial action as it warms up.

 

[Owly055]

I wouldn't dough in at 130 and leave it overnight, at that range you're definitely getting some enzymatic activity... I don't remember the technical details, but I would expect very thin beer to be the result. Other than that it sounds like a good system. Perhaps starting with actually cold water would work? Although you might get some bacterial action as it warms up.

I'm curious as to what negative enzymatic effects would take place. There are a number of enzymes that act in the lower temps, but I haven't encountered info on any of them that would have a negative effect. Actually I've been contemplating doing this manually, just to test the results. I'd love to hear any opinions / data on it. 8 hours in cold water, probably wouldn't result in significant bacterial action.........but I don't know....... terr incognito again!


H.W.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

I've thought about doing this type of setup with two heatsticks.
Measure out strike water in kettle (biab with sparge)
Plug heat sticks to 15A lamp switch/timers, so they turn on in 7.5 hours.
Plug thermometer with alarm in and out probe in water, set alarm to 2 degrees below strike temp.

Idea being that it will at least eliminate the waiting time to get to mash. Wake up, dough in, make coffee during mash. Just have to be there for the boil

 

[Owly055]

I've thought about doing this type of setup with two heatsticks.
Measure out strike water in kettle (biab with sparge)
Plug heat sticks to 15A lamp switch/timers, so they turn on in 7.5 hours.
Plug thermometer with alarm in and out probe in water, set alarm to 2 degrees below strike temp.

Idea being that it will at least eliminate the waiting time to get to mash. Wake up, dough in, make coffee during mash. Just have to be there for the boil

I like your chart!! I've been using the "by guess and by golly" method. Running some numbers, I get similar results. I do squeeze my bag quite a bit..

H.W.

 

[mdbrewer1]

There's no way I'd allow a heating process to be going on while I was asleep. I'm all for saving time, but not at the expense of a potential unattended fire. Stuff happens. I don't even like poking my head in the kitchen for a minute or two during the boil. I can see setting everything to start at the same time I wake up, so I could be making coffee, measuring hops, preparing the chiller, sanitizing the fermenter and other equipment, etc. while it heats up. The risk/reward in that situation is soooo not worth it. If your brew schedule is completely rigid, I'd go to bed a little earlier so I could start the brew day earlier, adjust the rest of my day, and/or compromise/compensate in other areas.

A rushed brew where you compromised or cut corners is only going to result in a subpar beer in the worst case scenario. An unattended fire is a whole 'nother ballgame.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Yea I've thought about that, but I feel safe doing this. 1) wake up to a loud alarm which will go off about 30 minutes before boiling occurs. and 2) Only way for the kettle to be electrically charged would be A) gfci fail, and B) jbweld fail which I doubt. 3) I'll be setting an alarm on my phone anyways for about 30 minutes after the expected time it takes to get to strike temp.

Also thanks Owly055, I have a thread about the updates and stuff. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f244/b...r-modifications-now-includes-sparging-485015/
If you have any issues, incorrect answers, complains, feature requests, or ideas let me know and I'll put it in.

 

[Owly055]

There's no way I'd allow a heating process to be going on while I was asleep. I'm all for saving time, but not at the expense of a potential unattended fire. Stuff happens. I don't even like poking my head in the kitchen for a minute or two during the boil. I can see setting everything to start at the same time I wake up, so I could be making coffee, measuring hops, preparing the chiller, sanitizing the fermenter and other equipment, etc. while it heats up. The risk/reward in that situation is soooo not worth it. If your brew schedule is completely rigid, I'd go to bed a little earlier so I could start the brew day earlier, adjust the rest of my day, and/or compromise/compensate in other areas.

A rushed brew where you compromised or cut corners is only going to result in a subpar beer in the worst case scenario. An unattended fire is a whole 'nother ballgame.

I don't share your fear of automated systems. I've been doing a lot of systems engineering most of my adult life, and know how to make things fail safe. The heating system involved would an ordinary hot plate run by a PID controller. Even at full output, unregulated, it wouldn't be capable of boiling the pot dry in the time involved. Low wattage is one passive failsafe, an active failsafe is a temp limit switch..... simple, cheap, reliable.

My furnace runs completely independent and I don't worry about it.... the fan kicks on, the airflow sensor senses the draft, and turns on the valve, the gas comes on, and the pilot light lights it. A limit switch turns on the air circulating fan, and an over temp limit switch shuts off the furnace if the fan fails to come on. I don't see this as being fundamentally any different. Do you feel safe with an electric area heater running? How about programming the oven to come on and cook dinner for you? Do you trust your anti lock brakes to stop the car, knowing that they are controlled by a computer? How about getting in an elevator, knowing that a cable operates it, and if the cable breaks, there is a failsafe braking system that depends on centrifugal force to deploy brakes? I can't imagine you ever getting in an airliner, knowing the incredible array of complex control systems that must all work to get you safely where you are going........

Automation is a fact of life. We live with it every day. The fact that it is "home grown" would seem to be at the root of your discomfort with it. I'm NOT a MacGyver, I'm not a cobbler creating Rube Goldberg systems. I'm very capable and experienced. When I design and build systems, the work reliably for many years after the initial shakedown / debug period, and often right out of the box.

H.W.

 

[mdbrewer1]

I don't share your fear of automated systems. I've been doing a lot of systems engineering most of my adult life, and know how to make things fail safe. The heating system involved would an ordinary hot plate run by a PID controller. Even at full output, unregulated, it wouldn't be capable of boiling the pot dry in the time involved. Low wattage is one passive failsafe, an active failsafe is a temp limit switch..... simple, cheap, reliable.

My furnace runs completely independent and I don't worry about it.... the fan kicks on, the airflow sensor senses the draft, and turns on the valve, the gas comes on, and the pilot light lights it. A limit switch turns on the air circulating fan, and an over temp limit switch shuts off the furnace if the fan fails to come on. I don't see this as being fundamentally any different. Do you feel safe with an electric area heater running? How about programming the oven to come on and cook dinner for you? Do you trust your anti lock brakes to stop the car, knowing that they are controlled by a computer? How about getting in an elevator, knowing that a cable operates it, and if the cable breaks, there is a failsafe braking system that depends on centrifugal force to deploy brakes? I can't imagine you ever getting in an airliner, knowing the incredible array of complex control systems that must all work to get you safely where you are going........

Automation is a fact of life. We live with it every day. The fact that it is "home grown" would seem to be at the root of your discomfort with it. I'm NOT a MacGyver, I'm not a cobbler creating Rube Goldberg systems. I'm very capable and experienced. When I design and build systems, the work reliably for many years after the initial shakedown / debug period, and often right out of the box.

H.W.

I would appreciate it if you did not put words in my mouth. I do not fear automation. Automation can be a wonderful thing. You listed a couple of excellent examples.

Perhaps it is my background evaluating risk analyses, but I don't think your analogies on brakes and a furnace are really relevant though. I consider brakes and a furnace needs. I don't consider cutting 2 hours off of a brew day a need. Thus the risk, however small you manage to make it with your capabilities and experience, is never zero, and not worth the meager time reward compared to the potential consequence. Equipment failure, external initiating events, human error (yes, even pros can make errors), and other contributors are all very real and must be included in an evaluation.

We all have different levels of risk tolerance. Yours is clearly higher than mine when it comes to the benefit gained from an extra couple hours of time. There are other areas of my life that have some give. I could watch less Netflix. I could spend less thime on here. I could cut the grass less often by setting the mower an inch lower. None of those thing could result in a house fire. If my schedule was so demanding that it was completely inflexible, I'd buy my beer and find something else I could do that would fit my available free time.

Those are my two pennies. I know I'm more risk averse than most so YMMV.

 

[Owly055]

I would appreciate it if you did not put words in my mouth. I do not fear automation. Automation can be a wonderful thing.

I apologize for putting words in your mouth............ My nature is to debate things a bit more aggressively than is sometimes necessary.



I do consider the furnace analogy....... and my gas water heater which scares the hell out of me...... both to be good analogies. My Bunn coffee maker is another........It maintains brew temp water 24/7 and depends on a cheap button thermostat to control temp.

 

[Owly055]

I would appreciate it if you did not put words in my mouth. I do not fear automation. Automation can be a wonderful thing.

I apologize for putting words in your mouth............ My nature is to debate things a bit more aggressively than is sometimes necessary.

Your points are good ones......... and clearly as you said, I am more risk tolerant than you are........You probably don't have a loaded shotgun hanging in the living room either, or have the vehicle modifications I do to increase mileage and utility. We live in different worlds and have different standards and priorities. Many people wouldn't dream of doing some of the outrageous things I've done......... This isn't the place to tell "hair raising" stories about facing grizzly bears unarmed in the Absarokee range just outside the park, or free climbing ice covered peaks in the Crazy Mountains, etc. Approaching 60, I'm getting just a bit more cautious though ;-).....

I do consider the furnace analogy....... and my gas water heater which scares the hell out of me...... both to be good analogies. My Bunn coffee maker is another........It maintains brew temp water 24/7 and depends on a cheap button thermostat to control temp.

By the way, the airliner analogy is probably a good one............. I avoid them like the plague, though I love to fly small planes, and ultralights. Does that make any sense? We're all full of contradictions!

H.W.

 

[mdbrewer1]

I would appreciate it if you did not put words in my mouth. I do not fear automation. Automation can be a wonderful thing.

I apologize for putting words in your mouth............ My nature is to debate things a bit more aggressively than is sometimes necessary.



I do consider the furnace analogy....... and my gas water heater which scares the hell out of me...... both to be good analogies. My Bunn coffee maker is another........It maintains brew temp water 24/7 and depends on a cheap button thermostat to control temp.

I am on the opposite side of the debate spectrum, so no worries. That happens to me quite a bit.

If having a warm house and warm/hot water were mere wants instead of needs (or what we consider needs in modern days), then I would consider them good analogies to an automated hot plate for speeding up a brew day. There's also the aspect that I can't go to bed an hour earlier to eliminate the need for the furnace and water heater. I could go to bed an hour earlier (or find another hour or two in my week) in order to eliminate the risk (no matter how small) of a potential unattended fire from an automated hot plate.

Note: My new place has a gas furnace and water heater and they scare the bejeezus out of me too.

 

[mdbrewer1]

I would appreciate it if you did not put words in my mouth. I do not fear automation. Automation can be a wonderful thing.

I apologize for putting words in your mouth............ My nature is to debate things a bit more aggressively than is sometimes necessary.

Your points are good ones......... and clearly as you said, I am more risk tolerant than you are........You probably don't have a loaded shotgun hanging in the living room either, or have the vehicle modifications I do to increase mileage and utility. We live in different worlds and have different standards and priorities. Many people wouldn't dream of doing some of the outrageous things I've done......... This isn't the place to tell "hair raising" stories about facing grizzly bears unarmed in the Absarokee range just outside the park, or free climbing ice covered peaks in the Crazy Mountains, etc. Approaching 60, I'm getting just a bit more cautious though ;-).....

I do consider the furnace analogy....... and my gas water heater which scares the hell out of me...... both to be good analogies. My Bunn coffee maker is another........It maintains brew temp water 24/7 and depends on a cheap button thermostat to control temp.

By the way, the airliner analogy is probably a good one............. I avoid them like the plague, though I love to fly small planes, and ultralights. Does that make any sense? We're all full of contradictions!

H.W.

Humanity is a wonderful beast. What one person would never even consider doing is another's ultimate dream.