Selling Homebrew, Indiana

[bob1852]

It sounds like some of you are the types that won't let your kids have a lemonade stand either. After all they don't have a business license, health permits, proper zoning, etc.....

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2012/02/24/i_tried_to_open_a_lemonade_stand_113235.html

 

[TyTanium]

It sounds like some of you are the types that won't let your kids have a lemonade stand either. After all they don't have a business license, health permits, proper zoning, etc.....

It's not spiked lemonade. Big difference.

Falls under the "use good judgment" category.

 

[ktblunden]

It sounds like some of you are the types that won't let your kids have a lemonade stand either. After all they don't have a business license, health permits, proper zoning, etc.....

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that the Feds are driving around seeking out people trading homebrew to their buddies. However, posting about circumventing the law on a public forum that is indexed by every search engine out there is a really good way to provide evidence of intent and alerting said Feds in the first place.

As an example, I just searched "Selling Homebrew" on Google and the first result is 5 threads on HBT, this one being the second of those 5. It's not very hard at that point to track down individual users from the public information they post.

 

[the_bird]

It sounds like some of you are the types that won't let your kids have a lemonade stand either. After all they don't have a business license, health permits, proper zoning, etc.....

I don't have a problem with bartering with your friends for odd jobs, or having your buddies chip in for ingredients. All that stuff is going to fly so far under the radar, it's not going to be an issue. We all take SOME risk in our lives (we almost all drive a little bit over the speed limit), unless the person you've bartered with turns around and tries to re-sell your beer, no one's ever going to think twice.

What the original poster proposed, though? The actual sale of "homebrew" to a bar or to a distributor? You're basically moonshining without a still. You've violating tons of state and Federal laws, and doing it in a way that is decidedly *not* under the radar.

 

[rico567]

It sounds like some of you are the types that won't let your kids have a lemonade stand either. After all they don't have a business license, health permits, proper zoning, etc.....

I think it's got little to do with any "types" on this thread. It has to do with the law as it relates to the manufacturing and sale of alcohol. No alcohol in lemonade, last time I checked.

 

[the_bird]

I think it's got little to do with any "types" on this thread. It has to do with the law as it relates to the manufacturing and sale of alcohol. No alcohol in lemonade, last time I checked.

If my kid wanted to start selling these,

I might have a problem.

 

[Phunhog]

I think it's got little to do with any "types" on this thread. It has to do with the law as it relates to the manufacturing and sale of alcohol. No alcohol in lemonade, last time I checked.

My point is that when you get down to "brass tacks" whether your kids are selling lemonade to your neighbors or you are selling/bartering homebrew to your neighbors it is ALL illegal without the proper licensing. Yet most of us would not think twice of letting our kids have or patronizing a lemonade stand. I am not trying to be argumentative I just think it is an interesting ethical subject. We will encourage/patronize the kid's illegal activity. It has nothing to do with alcohol!! There certainly isn't anything morally wrong with selling homebrew, with a few notabable exceptions. It's illegal because the government says it's illegal.

 

[TyTanium]

Wow, didn't realize a lemonade stand was illegal.

 

[bob1852]

Wow, didn't realize a lemonade stand was illegal.

Did you not read this?:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2012/02/24/i_tried_to_open_a_lemonade_stand_113235.html

In Midway, Ga., a 14-year-old girl and her 10-year-old sister sold lemonade from their front yard. Two police officers bought some. But the next day, different officers ordered them to close their stand.

Their father went to city hall to try to find out why. The clerk laughed and said she didn't know. Eventually, Police Chief Kelly Morningstar explained, "We were not aware of how the lemonade was made, who made the lemonade and of what the lemonade was made with."

 

[TyTanium]

I did, I just thought it was some overzealous police chief on a power trip.

 

[bob1852]

I did, I just thought it was some overzealous police chief on a power trip.

It's not just one...

http://www.wnd.com/2011/08/330977/

 

[BWRIGHT]

OK, lots of good information. What I wanted to do has been made clear that it's illegal. Let me get back to the original scenario that I neglected to mention......There's a local pizza joint in town that is known for having good pizza and good beer. The owner has been selling local beers (Upland, 3 floyds, Bells, etc). He's been having some trouble getting some of these and other beers in small amounts lately. He now is interested in having someone come on board and start brewing beer in house (in the kitchen of the restaurant). Apparently, he wants me to be that guy. So here is where I need some more insight. He's talking about starting with small amounts (5-10 gallons/week). I'm all for that if everything is legit. He has a liquor license already but he's interested in the possibilty of selling growlers to go. I'm sure there are other legalities that need to be worked out. My question is, are there any specific reasons that this won't work or is illegal? That's where I should have started with the OP, but I had other things in mind.

 

[Phunhog]

Well......the fees and regulations alone will make it not worth it. You are brewing to small of an amount to cover the licensing cost. Not to mention the additional headaches of filing TTB paperwork quarterly, paying excise taxes, etc...In the eyes of the TTB you will be a brew pub.

 

[malevolent]

OK, lots of good information. What I wanted to do has been made clear that it's illegal. Let me get back to the original scenario that I neglected to mention......There's a local pizza joint in town that is known for having good pizza and good beer. The owner has been selling local beers (Upland, 3 floyds, Bells, etc). He's been having some trouble getting some of these and other beers in small amounts lately. He now is interested in having someone come on board and start brewing beer in house (in the kitchen of the restaurant). Apparently, he wants me to be that guy. So here is where I need some more insight. He's talking about starting with small amounts (5-10 gallons/week). I'm all for that if everything is legit. He has a liquor license already but he's interested in the possibilty of selling growlers to go. I'm sure there are other legalities that need to be worked out. My question is, are there any specific reasons that this won't work or is illegal? That's where I should have started with the OP, but I had other things in mind.

He needs to get licensing to brew on premises

 

[Revvy]

The HE's got to become a licensed beer producer.

 

[Piratwolf]

Well......the fees and regulations alone will make it not worth it. You are brewing to small of an amount to cover the licensing cost.

I see this a lot, but I'm not sure what you're referring to... The TTB does not charge for licensing and the business owner clearly already has an ABC license. Is there something I'm missing in terms of licensing costs?

 

[Zamial]

I see this a lot, but I'm not sure what you're referring to... The TTB does not charge for licensing and the business owner clearly already has an ABC license. Is there something I'm missing in terms of licensing costs?

It is now time to go to the TTB and Probrewer.com. We are HOME brewers. From other professional brewers on this site and reading their threads it seems IMPOSSIBLE to make a profit with less than a 1 BBL brewery, this may be different in your state. ANY advice given on "going pro" other than contact the TTB and Probrewer is conjecture at best, we simply do not cover that on this site.

I wish you and your pizza friend the best of luck let us know how it turns out.

 

[Piratwolf]

It is now time to go to the TTB and Probrewer.com. We are HOME brewers. From other professional brewers on this site and reading their threads it seems IMPOSSIBLE to make a profit with less than a 1 BBL brewery, this may be different in your state. ANY advice given on "going pro" other than contact the TTB and Probrewer is conjecture at best, we simply do not cover that on this site.

I wish you and your pizza friend the best of luck let us know how it turns out.

Funny enough, I'm reading the forums on probrewer right now. However, the situation isn't mine--I was just commenting b/c I had just finished reading the TTB license page before opening HBT.

All that being said, I think you're right to send the OP to other venues

 

[Phunhog]

I see this a lot, but I'm not sure what you're referring to... The TTB does not charge for licensing and the business owner clearly already has an ABC license. Is there something I'm missing in terms of licensing costs?

Well you have to put up a bond of at least 1K. You can either pay it directly to TTB or go through a bond company and pay a smaller amount every year. I don't know about Indiana, but in CA there are various ABC licenses. Just because you are allowed to sell beer doesn't mean you can produce beer for sale..it's a different license. Which of course costs more money.

 

[Piratwolf]

Well you have to put up a bond of at least 1K. You can either pay it directly to TTB or go through a bond company and pay a smaller amount every year. I don't know about Indiana, but in CA there are various ABC licenses. Just because you are allowed to sell beer doesn't mean you can produce beer for sale..it's a different license. Which of course costs more money.

You're right, Phunhog. I did some reading after this and it looks like people pay somewhere between $1K and $10K, although it tends towards the lower end... And that's without the costs that may be associated with bringing non-code areas up to code if such changes are necessary.

 

[medic2887]

Indiana Code 7.1-5-6-1. You cant brew for commercial purposes without a permit. But there is a difference between selling to strangers for a PROFIT and letting a buddy take a six pack home and takin a few bucks from him to offset the money you put into your brew. Yes its TECHNICALLY illegal, but its also a misdemeanor in Indiana to bet 5 bucks on the bears game... How many people are arrested for that??
Just dont be dumb about it...

 

[zeg]

Indiana Code 7.1-5-6-1. You cant brew for commercial purposes without a permit. But there is a difference between selling to strangers for a PROFIT and letting a buddy take a six pack home and takin a few bucks from him to offset the money you put into your brew.

Legally speaking there is not a difference. Just because you're bad at business and selling your product to your friends at a loss doesn't make this non-commercial. You don't have to like it, but there is simply no legal way to trade homebrew for money here by changing the words you use to describe the transaction.

And the forum rules prohibit discussing illegal endeavors, so there's no sense getting into the likelihood of being prosecuted, etc. That'll just get the thread shut down.

 

[BBL_Brewer]

It's $500 for a small brewers permit in Indiana. You have to have a location that is zoned correctly before the permit will be granted. It can't be zoned residential.

 

[Phunhog]

Indiana Code 7.1-5-6-1. You cant brew for commercial purposes without a permit. But there is a difference between selling to strangers for a PROFIT and letting a buddy take a six pack home and takin a few bucks from him to offset the money you put into your brew. Yes its TECHNICALLY illegal, but its also a misdemeanor in Indiana to bet 5 bucks on the bears game... How many people are arrested for that??
Just dont be dumb about it...

you are right...don't be dumb about it!! Just don't do it! If someone wants to buy beer have them pitch the yeast!! That way it is their beer.

 

[BBL_Brewer]

you are right...don't be dumb about it!! Just don't do it! If someone wants to buy beer have them pitch the yeast!! That way it is their beer.

That's like saying. I don't need a fishing licesne, officer. My buddy casted the pole and then went to take a leak, I'm just reeling in "his" fish.

 

[Phunhog]

That's like saying. I don't need a fishing licesne, officer. My buddy casted the pole and then went to take a leak, I'm just reeling in "his" fish.

Exactly.....whoever is holding the rod is the fisherman and whoever pitches the yeast is the brewer.

 

[zeg]

Exactly.....whoever is holding the rod is the fisherman and whoever pitches the yeast is the brewer.

First of all, I don't see anything in the Indiana code that defines who is the manufacturer of the beer. It certainly doesn't say anything about pitching yeast. So good luck with that.

Second, your analogy doesn't even make sense:

holding the rod :: catching a fish
storing the carboy :: brewing the beer

is the correct one.

 

[Denny]

Is there some exemption for Hawaii and Palinland?

No. It's all 50 states.

 

[Denny]

OK, lots of good information. What I wanted to do has been made clear that it's illegal. Let me get back to the original scenario that I neglected to mention......There's a local pizza joint in town that is known for having good pizza and good beer. The owner has been selling local beers (Upland, 3 floyds, Bells, etc). He's been having some trouble getting some of these and other beers in small amounts lately. He now is interested in having someone come on board and start brewing beer in house (in the kitchen of the restaurant). Apparently, he wants me to be that guy. So here is where I need some more insight. He's talking about starting with small amounts (5-10 gallons/week). I'm all for that if everything is legit. He has a liquor license already but he's interested in the possibilty of selling growlers to go. I'm sure there are other legalities that need to be worked out. My question is, are there any specific reasons that this won't work or is illegal? That's where I should have started with the OP, but I had other things in mind.

You need to talk to a lawyer, not homebrewers.

 

[Phunhog]

You need to talk to a lawyer, not homebrewers.

But homebrewers are much more fun to talk to....and quite a bit cheaper too!!