- Joined
- Jun 2, 2008
- Messages
- 64,951
- Reaction score
- 16,516
Selling Homebrew, Indiana
- Thread starter BWRIGHT
- Start date
Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
OP
OP
OK, lots of good information. What I wanted to do has been made clear that it's illegal. Let me get back to the original scenario that I neglected to mention......There's a local pizza joint in town that is known for having good pizza and good beer. The owner has been selling local beers (Upland, 3 floyds, Bells, etc). He's been having some trouble getting some of these and other beers in small amounts lately. He now is interested in having someone come on board and start brewing beer in house (in the kitchen of the restaurant). Apparently, he wants me to be that guy. So here is where I need some more insight. He's talking about starting with small amounts (5-10 gallons/week). I'm all for that if everything is legit. He has a liquor license already but he's interested in the possibilty of selling growlers to go. I'm sure there are other legalities that need to be worked out. My question is, are there any specific reasons that this won't work or is illegal? That's where I should have started with the OP, but I had other things in mind.
Well......the fees and regulations alone will make it not worth it. You are brewing to small of an amount to cover the licensing cost. Not to mention the additional headaches of filing TTB paperwork quarterly, paying excise taxes, etc...In the eyes of the TTB you will be a brew pub.
malevolent
Well-Known Member
He needs to get licensing to brew on premises
The HE's got to become a licensed beer producer.
Phunhog said:
I see this a lot, but I'm not sure what you're referring to... The TTB does not charge for licensing and the business owner clearly already has an ABC license. Is there something I'm missing in terms of licensing costs?
It is now time to go to the TTB and Probrewer.com. We are HOME brewers. From other professional brewers on this site and reading their threads it seems IMPOSSIBLE to make a profit with less than a 1 BBL brewery, this may be different in your state. ANY advice given on "going pro" other than contact the TTB and Probrewer is conjecture at best, we simply do not cover that on this site.
I wish you and your pizza friend the best of luck let us know how it turns out.
Zamial said:It is now time to go to the TTB and Probrewer.com. We are HOME brewers. From other professional brewers on this site and reading their threads it seems IMPOSSIBLE to make a profit with less than a 1 BBL brewery, this may be different in your state. ANY advice given on "going pro" other than contact the TTB and Probrewer is conjecture at best, we simply do not cover that on this site.
I wish you and your pizza friend the best of luck let us know how it turns out.
Funny enough, I'm reading the forums on probrewer right now. However, the situation isn't mine--I was just commenting b/c I had just finished reading the TTB license page before opening HBT.
All that being said, I think you're right to send the OP to other venues
Well you have to put up a bond of at least 1K. You can either pay it directly to TTB or go through a bond company and pay a smaller amount every year. I don't know about Indiana, but in CA there are various ABC licenses. Just because you are allowed to sell beer doesn't mean you can produce beer for sale..it's a different license. Which of course costs more money.
Phunhog said:
You're right, Phunhog. I did some reading after this and it looks like people pay somewhere between $1K and $10K, although it tends towards the lower end... And that's without the costs that may be associated with bringing non-code areas up to code if such changes are necessary.
medic2887
Member
Indiana Code 7.1-5-6-1. You cant brew for commercial purposes without a permit. But there is a difference between selling to strangers for a PROFIT and letting a buddy take a six pack home and takin a few bucks from him to offset the money you put into your brew. Yes its TECHNICALLY illegal, but its also a misdemeanor in Indiana to bet 5 bucks on the bears game... How many people are arrested for that??
Just dont be dumb about it...
Just dont be dumb about it...
zeg
Well-Known Member
Legally speaking there is not a difference. Just because you're bad at business and selling your product to your friends at a loss doesn't make this non-commercial. You don't have to like it, but there is simply no legal way to trade homebrew for money here by changing the words you use to describe the transaction.
And the forum rules prohibit discussing illegal endeavors, so there's no sense getting into the likelihood of being prosecuted, etc. That'll just get the thread shut down.
BBL_Brewer
Well-Known Member
It's $500 for a small brewers permit in Indiana. You have to have a location that is zoned correctly before the permit will be granted. It can't be zoned residential.
you are right...don't be dumb about it!! Just don't do it! If someone wants to buy beer have them pitch the yeast!! That way it is their beer.
BBL_Brewer
Well-Known Member
That's like saying. I don't need a fishing licesne, officer. My buddy casted the pole and then went to take a leak, I'm just reeling in "his" fish.
Exactly.....whoever is holding the rod is the fisherman and whoever pitches the yeast is the brewer.
zeg
Well-Known Member
First of all, I don't see anything in the Indiana code that defines who is the manufacturer of the beer. It certainly doesn't say anything about pitching yeast. So good luck with that.
Second, your analogy doesn't even make sense:
holding the rod :: catching a fish
storing the carboy :: brewing the beer
is the correct one.
No. It's all 50 states.
You need to talk to a lawyer, not homebrewers.
But homebrewers are much more fun to talk to....and quite a bit cheaper too!!
But lawyers will actually give you useful advice.
ReverseApacheMaster
Well-Known Member
So much bad, bad advice...
To be honest I feel all of us secretly would love to own a small commercial brewery. The main problem I see is funds. After touring a couple of small operations I dont think I would attempt it without at least a mill in disposable income. 10 gallons at a time will not cut it, and bottling by hand? Forget it. I spend a lot of time on my beer and I cant even keep up with my own consumption.
Not me. Brewing is too much fun to turn it into a job!
Nothing that would get me arrested. Unless I lived in Alabama, then I'd probably be in REAL trouble.
JoshuaW
Well-Known Member
zeg
Well-Known Member
Do you have a citation for this? Specifically, for the interpretation that if you, in your unlicensed home brewery, perform all steps except the physical act of pouring yeast into the fermenter, that you are not responsible as the manufacturer?
I'm skeptical (before even getting into the question of whether you could ever convince the authorities that this is what had occurred).
TyTanium
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2011
- Messages
- 3,976
- Reaction score
- 611
Yes. We can interpret the law however we want...doesn't matter. It only matters how courts have interpreted it and how regulators have enforced it.
But homebrewers are much more fun to talk to....and quite a bit cheaper too!!
Perhaps not in the long run of this situation.
There we have it. I guess it's OK then since you've probably already broken some other law.
So if I get a speeding ticket on the way to robbing a bank, am I off the hook for bank robbery?
I think "all of us" is a totally wrong statement. I"m with Denny. I LOVE being a homebrewer, and I love visiting my friends who are pro brewers. But I never want to brew professionally, ever. First, its WAY too much work for me. And I love brewing far too much to have it stop being a hobby and turning into a job!
Let's not argue about this anymore. We all know that there are times people break the law, by speeding or whatever. Telling someone to speed, or cheat or their taxes, or selling homebrew isn't what we are here for. Just because you might not get caught doesn't suddenly make something legal. You might not get caught doing 75 mph in a 45 mph zone, either. But that doesn't make it legal, and you still would pay the consequences if caught.
Trying to rationalize it is just ridiculous.
Darn, you're a smart lady!
Ok, ok a few of us LOL
By the way I own a small business and trust me the politics and paperwork will drown you until you lose your love for the work. I love getting out of the office and crawling around in attics, but these days there is more and more dealing with the pencil neck geeks and less actual work.
By the way I own a small business and trust me the politics and paperwork will drown you until you lose your love for the work. I love getting out of the office and crawling around in attics, but these days there is more and more dealing with the pencil neck geeks and less actual work.
I think we can all agree that it is a grey area. I found this on the TTB website regarding Brew On Premise (BOP) http://www.ttb.gov/beer/beer-faqs.shtml#b1 Here is the grey area....nowhere that I can find in the law, in this case the Federal Code of Regulations, does it say what exactly what a BOP can/ can not do. In the above link it just states some guidelines that the TTB has come up with in regards to BOP. Maybe I am wrong here but...I think there is a big difference between a federal law enacted by Congress and some guidelines put forth by a federal agency. One is legally binding and the other???
zeg
Well-Known Member
Well, the point is that I'm not interested in my own conclusions, I want to know the conclusions of people who have the power to prosecute violations. I had a brief look for something authoritative, but could not find anything to support the idea of "pitching yeast" = "manufacturing."
And my own conclusion would be that you can't separate that single act from the entire production process. In a situation like that described, where one person's single act is to inoculate the wort with yeast, it's pretty clear that most reasonable people would say the manufacturer was the person who produced the wort and then managed the fermentation. The other guy was an assistant. Without evidence to the contrary, I would be pretty uncomfortable expecting the legal system to accept what is a ridiculous description of the process.
For Brew on Premises operations, they may use a definition like this, I don't know for sure. However, that is rather different from a homebrew setting. Businesses like that have to jump through hoops to begin with, and I expect they have to keep pretty meticulous records in case they're inspected or audited.
Edit: from Phunhog's link (thanks!) it looks to me like even BoP places can't just do everything except the pitch. Once it's pitched, it's the responsibility of the customer (i.e., manufacturer).
I'm not a lawyer, but my interpretation is:
pitching yeast = making alcohol.
Anyone can sell ingredients, but selling the final product is illegal. Once yeast is pitched, you have a final product. Even if the yeast died and you failed, you still tried to sell the final product, therefore illegal.
example:
last weekend, the LHBS had a cider event. you could buy the base cider, but at that point the cider is just apple juice so the TTB and ABC have no interest. The LHBS was not selling hard cider. They were only selling ingredients and perfectly within the confines of the law.
pitching yeast = making alcohol.
Anyone can sell ingredients, but selling the final product is illegal. Once yeast is pitched, you have a final product. Even if the yeast died and you failed, you still tried to sell the final product, therefore illegal.
example:
last weekend, the LHBS had a cider event. you could buy the base cider, but at that point the cider is just apple juice so the TTB and ABC have no interest. The LHBS was not selling hard cider. They were only selling ingredients and perfectly within the confines of the law.
Just wanted to add that I actually contacted the CA ABC regarding BOP licensing and regulation. Here is their response:
Some Brew On Premise (“BOP” businesses are licensed by our Department and some do not hold licenses. It depends on what the owner of the BOP intends to do. For instance, if the BOP owner merely rents space and equipment to adult persons who proceed to manufacture their own beer (similar to brewing beer at home) and also sells ingredients, bottles, caps, etc. then no ABC license is required. Generally, the BOP operator charges a fee for equipment rental and space occupied by the “home brewer.” Unlicensed BOP businesses cannot manufacture their own beer for sale, provide beer samples to customers, or otherwise engage in any activities that would require an ABC license.
That said, many BOP businesses that initially began as unlicensed ventures decided that not having an ABC license was much too restrictive. Therefore, many BOP operators applied for the Type 23 (“Small Beer Manufacturer” license. Although Type 23 licensees may exercise limited retail privileges, the Type 23 is considered to be a “non-retail” license. Here is a link to information about our non-retail licenses: http://www.abc.ca.gov/trade/NRLicPRivs.pdf. First scroll to the Type 01 license and then to the Type 23 license. Both are considered beer manufacturers and the only significant difference is how much beer can be produced annually.
License applications are handled by our local (district) offices. If you decide to apply for a Type 23 license you should contact the district office closest to where you will set up the manufacturing premises. You will find a list of our offices under the “Home” tab on our Web site: www.abc.ca.gov. A program technician or licensing representative in the district office can furnish information about the required forms, fees, etc. as well as answer questions about the licensing process.
It appears that there is NO federal or state law, at least in CA(..your state may vary), that governs BOP's operation. There are guidelines......but my point is that there is a HUGE difference between a law and an agency guideline.
Some Brew On Premise (“BOP”
businesses are licensed by our Department and some do not hold licenses. It depends on what the owner of the BOP intends to do. For instance, if the BOP owner merely rents space and equipment to adult persons who proceed to manufacture their own beer (similar to brewing beer at home) and also sells ingredients, bottles, caps, etc. then no ABC license is required. Generally, the BOP operator charges a fee for equipment rental and space occupied by the “home brewer.” Unlicensed BOP businesses cannot manufacture their own beer for sale, provide beer samples to customers, or otherwise engage in any activities that would require an ABC license.That said, many BOP businesses that initially began as unlicensed ventures decided that not having an ABC license was much too restrictive. Therefore, many BOP operators applied for the Type 23 (“Small Beer Manufacturer”
license. Although Type 23 licensees may exercise limited retail privileges, the Type 23 is considered to be a “non-retail” license. Here is a link to information about our non-retail licenses: http://www.abc.ca.gov/trade/NRLicPRivs.pdf. First scroll to the Type 01 license and then to the Type 23 license. Both are considered beer manufacturers and the only significant difference is how much beer can be produced annually.License applications are handled by our local (district) offices. If you decide to apply for a Type 23 license you should contact the district office closest to where you will set up the manufacturing premises. You will find a list of our offices under the “Home” tab on our Web site: www.abc.ca.gov. A program technician or licensing representative in the district office can furnish information about the required forms, fees, etc. as well as answer questions about the licensing process.
It appears that there is NO federal or state law, at least in CA(..your state may vary), that governs BOP's operation. There are guidelines......but my point is that there is a HUGE difference between a law and an agency guideline.
