Selling Homebrew, Indiana

[BWRIGHT]

I've had a few people inquire about purchasing homebrew. I know there are plenty of threads discussing all the laws, licenses, regulations etc. I'm looking for all of that information specific to Indiana state law. Does anyone know where I can find all that info specifically for Indiana?

 

[HawksBrewer]

Selling homebrew is strictly illegal, at least in the 48 contiguous states. You would need an alcohol license in order to complete such a task.

 

[Revvy]

You mean you want to become a licensed brewer, right? Because you can't sell homebrew, that's illegal. You need to go legit, which would make you a "real" brewer, not a homebrew....Homebrewing is a HOBBY.

 

[Revvy]

You might as well start here.

 

[BWRIGHT]

Exactly. I've been over the TTB website. I was hoping to find something specifically geared toward specific state law. I'm not trying to start a brewery, just sell to other distributors (restraunts, bars). I'm just beginning to look into this. Hell, maybe it's all illegal. Being approached has got me wondering.

 

[Revvy]

Exactly. I've been over the TTB website. I was hoping to find something specifically geared toward specific state law. I'm not trying to start a brewery, just sell to other distributors (restraunts, bars). I'm just beginning to look into this. Hell, maybe it's all illegal. Being approached has got me wondering.

It is all illegal, unless you become a licensed brewery.....You have to follow state AND federal law.

 

[nate456789]

http://www.in.gov/atc/2458.htm

It's not cheap or easy. If so we all would be selling our beer. The licenses are limited depending on your area. I have a friend that bought an old run down bar just for the license. No others were available in his area.

 

[the_bird]

Exactly. I've been over the TTB website. I was hoping to find something specifically geared toward specific state law. I'm not trying to start a brewery, just sell to other distributors (restraunts, bars). I'm just beginning to look into this. Hell, maybe it's all illegal. Being approached has got me wondering.

It's a matter of semantics, but in this case the semantics are important. What you're asking about IS starting a brewery. Might be a nanobrewery using homebrew equipment, but it's a professional brewery nonetheless.

 

[evrose]

So I have a related question...

What's to keep a group of friends from all pitching a few dollars in for supplies to brew together? Let's assume for a moment that I have three friends (yeah, I know, crazy thought, but this is a hypothetical, stay with me. And stop laughing. No, really, stop) who want to brew with me, and we agree to split costs evenly. How is that any different than having them "buy" the beer?

Just asking...

 

[nate456789]

So I have a related question...

What's to keep a group of friends from all pitching a few dollars in for supplies to brew together? Let's assume for a moment that I have three friends (yeah, I know, crazy thought, but this is a hypothetical, stay with me. And stop laughing. No, really, stop) who want to brew with me, and we agree to split costs evenly. How is that any different than having them "buy" the beer?

Just asking...

I don't think the ATF are going to raid your garage for that. But if your "Friends" own a local pub where a few taps are serving your beer, you might have some explaining to do.

 

[evrose]

I don't think the ATF are going to raid your garage for that. But if your "Friends" own a local pub where a few taps are serving your beer, you might have some explaining to do.

Yeah, fair enough... I was just thinking out loud.

 

[TyTanium]

Agreed, but it could be construed as a constructive sale. Know the rules and use good judgement. Same goes for posting to a public, internet forum.

 

[the_bird]

Agreed, but it could be construed as a constructive sale. Know the rules and use good judgement. Same goes for posting to a public, internet forum.

It's one of those situations where it well might technically be illegal, but the odds of being prosecuted for it seem pretty small. Unless, of course, one of your "friends" is <21 or drives drunk into a school bus or something.

 

[TyTanium]

It's one of those situations where it well might technically be illegal, but the odds of being prosecuted for it seem pretty small. Unless, of course, one of your "friends" is <21 or drives drunk into a school bus or something.

Totally agree. But odds increase when posting on a public, internet forum, hence the judgment comment

 

[lowtones84]

Agreed, but it could be construed as a constructive sale. Know the rules and use good judgement. Same goes for posting to a public, internet forum.

Hey, we're only speaking hypothetically here...

 

[Phunhog]

Agreed, but it could be construed as a constructive sale. Know the rules and use good judgement. Same goes for posting to a public, internet forum.

and we all know that if you read about something on the internet it must be true

 

[Airplanedoc]

Selling homebrew is strictly illegal, at least in the 48 contiguous states.

Is there some exemption for Hawaii and Palinland?

 

[evrose]

Is there some exemption for Hawaii and Palinland?

And what about the other 7 States the President mentioned?

 

[landshark]

I've given beer away to friends. I've offered to make beer for friends (They buy the ingredients). One thing I'll do is trade beer for other items. I'm not selling it. But if my friend brings a Skid-Steer over and levels my back yard, I hand him 4 cases of homebrew and maybe some diesel fuel. Sounds fair to me.

Selling on the other hand = No No

You can ask for tips

 

[Zamial]

I've given beer away to friends. I've offered to make beer for friends (They buy the ingredients). One thing I'll do is trade beer for other items. I'm not selling it. But if my friend brings a Skid-Steer over and levels my back yard, I hand him 4 cases of homebrew and maybe some diesel fuel. Sounds fair to me.

Is barting. In the eyes of the law there is no difference. Bartering is exchanging goods and/or services for something.

Selling AND BARTERING = No No

You can ask for tips

This is true. However you can not make them mandatory or sell pencils that come with a free bottle of beer. I am not saying you will be caught if you do any of this. I personally would NEVER admit guilt on an internet forum... That being said if there WAS a loophole we all would know about it. No you did not just think of one and that won't work either, seriously just give up. It is much easier to RDWHAHB.

You can go pro and sell (making it not homebrew) OR you can GIVE HOMEBREW BEER AWAY.

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

To the OP -- your state alcohol board should have a website with links to the state alcohol laws. I am beyond positive that you cannot legally do what you are researching without first obtaining licenses as a brewery.

 

[kh54s10]

Bartering your beer valued at ~$2 per bottle and receiving goods valued at $5 = PROFIT = illegal.

It might go unnoticed if done occasionally, but if it becomes a bartering business the expect a visit.

 

[NuclearRich]

Hell, if bartering is illegal then I would imagine that having your ingredients paid for and then giving away the subsequently brewed beer just as bad. The laws get silly, but in the end Uncle Sam just wants his slice of the pie.

If I can have someone buy me ingredients.......... then couldnt I just mark them up for a reason as stupid as recieving the delivery (or making the trip to LHBS), no matter what the price of grain hops and yeast, hypothetically I am still giving away the beer.

 

[TyTanium]

The laws get silly, but in the end Uncle Sam just wants his slice of the pie.

Yes. And regulators like protection of businesses and consumers, especially when alcohol is involved.

If I can have someone buy me ingredients.......... then couldnt I just mark them up for a reason as stupid as recieving the delivery (or making the trip to LHBS), no matter what the price of grain hops and yeast, hypothetically I am still giving away the beer.

No. Lots of conventions to deal with that..."arms length transaction", "fair market values", "constructive receipt", etc.

There are not loopholes. You cannot sell homebrew. Period. I suggest this conversation be over.

 

[ktblunden]

It's never a good idea to discuss illegal activities on a public forum. All the "what if" scenarios do is provide evidence against you in the unlikely event you get caught.

 

[lowtones84]

Anyone have proof of bartering=selling? I just don't see how that could be possible. Perhaps if you were really running it like a business like paying the contractor who re-shingled your roof with a previously determined amount of homebrew... But if I (hypothetically of course) gave my friend a champagne bottle of my saison that he loves for letting me borrow his video camera, how could that possibly be illegal if both parties are over 21? And just because he's lending me something shouldn't make it any different, because that would be like renting instead of buying.

 

[RiverCityBrewer]

Anyone have proof of bartering=selling? I just don't see how that could be possible. Perhaps if you were really running it like a business like paying the contractor who re-shingled your roof with a previously determined amount of homebrew... But if I (hypothetically of course) gave my friend a champagne bottle of my saison that he loves for letting me borrow his video camera, how could that possibly be illegal if both parties are over 21? And just because he's lending me something shouldn't make it any different, because that would be like renting instead of buying.

IRS Website

http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html
http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=187920,00.html

In the eyes of the government, bartering = selling.

 

[lowtones84]

Welp, that's good enough I suppose! Thank you for the solid information proving once again how ridiculous our government is sometimes.

 

[rico567]

Agreed, but it could be construed as a constructive sale. Know the rules and use good judgement. Same goes for posting to a public, internet forum.

This. And if the intent is seen as an attempt to circumvent the law, someone could be in deep doo-doo.

"The difference between evasion and avoidance is about twenty years." -old IRS joke

 

[Phunhog]

It sounds like some of you are the types that won't let your kids have a lemonade stand either. After all they don't have a business license, health permits, proper zoning, etc.....

 

[bob1852]

It sounds like some of you are the types that won't let your kids have a lemonade stand either. After all they don't have a business license, health permits, proper zoning, etc.....

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2012/02/24/i_tried_to_open_a_lemonade_stand_113235.html

 

[TyTanium]

It sounds like some of you are the types that won't let your kids have a lemonade stand either. After all they don't have a business license, health permits, proper zoning, etc.....

It's not spiked lemonade. Big difference.

Falls under the "use good judgment" category.

 

[ktblunden]

It sounds like some of you are the types that won't let your kids have a lemonade stand either. After all they don't have a business license, health permits, proper zoning, etc.....

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that the Feds are driving around seeking out people trading homebrew to their buddies. However, posting about circumventing the law on a public forum that is indexed by every search engine out there is a really good way to provide evidence of intent and alerting said Feds in the first place.

As an example, I just searched "Selling Homebrew" on Google and the first result is 5 threads on HBT, this one being the second of those 5. It's not very hard at that point to track down individual users from the public information they post.

 

[the_bird]

It sounds like some of you are the types that won't let your kids have a lemonade stand either. After all they don't have a business license, health permits, proper zoning, etc.....

I don't have a problem with bartering with your friends for odd jobs, or having your buddies chip in for ingredients. All that stuff is going to fly so far under the radar, it's not going to be an issue. We all take SOME risk in our lives (we almost all drive a little bit over the speed limit), unless the person you've bartered with turns around and tries to re-sell your beer, no one's ever going to think twice.

What the original poster proposed, though? The actual sale of "homebrew" to a bar or to a distributor? You're basically moonshining without a still. You've violating tons of state and Federal laws, and doing it in a way that is decidedly *not* under the radar.

 

[rico567]

It sounds like some of you are the types that won't let your kids have a lemonade stand either. After all they don't have a business license, health permits, proper zoning, etc.....

I think it's got little to do with any "types" on this thread. It has to do with the law as it relates to the manufacturing and sale of alcohol. No alcohol in lemonade, last time I checked.

 

[the_bird]

I think it's got little to do with any "types" on this thread. It has to do with the law as it relates to the manufacturing and sale of alcohol. No alcohol in lemonade, last time I checked.

If my kid wanted to start selling these,

I might have a problem.

 

[Phunhog]

I think it's got little to do with any "types" on this thread. It has to do with the law as it relates to the manufacturing and sale of alcohol. No alcohol in lemonade, last time I checked.

My point is that when you get down to "brass tacks" whether your kids are selling lemonade to your neighbors or you are selling/bartering homebrew to your neighbors it is ALL illegal without the proper licensing. Yet most of us would not think twice of letting our kids have or patronizing a lemonade stand. I am not trying to be argumentative I just think it is an interesting ethical subject. We will encourage/patronize the kid's illegal activity. It has nothing to do with alcohol!! There certainly isn't anything morally wrong with selling homebrew, with a few notabable exceptions. It's illegal because the government says it's illegal.

 

[TyTanium]

Wow, didn't realize a lemonade stand was illegal.

 

[bob1852]

Wow, didn't realize a lemonade stand was illegal.

Did you not read this?:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2012/02/24/i_tried_to_open_a_lemonade_stand_113235.html

In Midway, Ga., a 14-year-old girl and her 10-year-old sister sold lemonade from their front yard. Two police officers bought some. But the next day, different officers ordered them to close their stand.

Their father went to city hall to try to find out why. The clerk laughed and said she didn't know. Eventually, Police Chief Kelly Morningstar explained, "We were not aware of how the lemonade was made, who made the lemonade and of what the lemonade was made with."

 

[TyTanium]

I did, I just thought it was some overzealous police chief on a power trip.