Selector Switch

[jawilson20]

I am in the process of wiring my control panel and have a few questions on how my selector switches should be wired.

I have two 3 position switches for my valves and two 2 position switches for my pumps and another 2 position switch for my system power. On the back of every swith there are terminals with numbers, but I have not been able to determine what number represents which posisiton on the switch. Search has not been much help either. Are there any threads you could point me to or any selector switch experts that could chime in?

I also have seen reference to NO Contact Blocks, my three position switch did not come with any extra blocks. Do I need a NO contact Block for an Off-Auto-Manual Valve control?

 

[FastTalker]

This is highly dependent on the exact type of switch. Can you provide a brand or model number or picture?

If you have a multimeter you can check for continuity between the terminals with the switch in different positions. That's going to give you the most definitive answer.

 

[nameless]

Yeah, a multimeter is extremely helpful if you're doing any wiring. Go to your local Harbor Freight and pick one up for $5.

 

[jawilson20]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PBC-SS22XTMA2-3-22mm-Sel-Switch-3-Pos-Main-2-NO-/110622016787

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PBC-SS22XTMA2-2-22mm-Sel-Switch-2-Pos-Main-1NO-1NC-/400205772912

The switches are linked above. I do have a multimeter. Can I use it when there is no power to the switch? What setting on the multimete?

 

[FastTalker]

On industrial switches typically the contact blocks can be removed. This allows you swap out contact blocks. For example, you may want to swap out a Normally-Open (NO) contact block for a Normally-closed (NC) contact block or for a different style like finger safe, etc.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PBC-SS22XTMA2-3-22mm-Sel-Switch-3-Pos-Main-2-NO-/110622016787

For this 3 position switch there are two sets of NO contacts. It is likely that when the switch is turned to either side it will close the contact on that side of the switch. I image one will be for your auto signal and the other your hand (or manual) signal. I would guess the center position (off) should leave both contacts open. One of the pictures on ebay shows only one of the contact blocks. The terminals are labeled 3 and 4. It is possible that this manufacturer labels all of their NO contact blocks 3 and 4. So you could have two terminals labeled 3 and two labeled 4. In that case a contact exists between each set of terminals labeled 3 and 4. Alternatively, the other contact block might be labeled 1 and 2. In that case the other contact is obviously between 1 and 2. But, in general, each contact should exists between the opposing terminals. Be aware that these are not Form C contacts or a SPDT switch. So there is no common terminal. You could simply create a common terminal by jumpering two terminals together.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PBC-SS22XTMA2-2-22mm-Sel-Switch-2-Pos-Main-1NO-1NC-/400205772912

This one is more straight forward since they show both contact blocks. The NC contact is between terminals 1 and 2. And the NO contact is between terminals 3 and 4. When the switch is in one position, one set of contacts will be open and the other closed. When you turn the switch to the other position both contacts will change to the opposite state.

The switches are linked above. I do have a multimeter. Can I use it when there is no power to the switch? What setting on the multimete?

You do not need power to test. There are probably two settings on your multimeter you can use for this. There is definitely a resistance setting usually indicated by the ohms symbol (omega). Place your two leads on the terminals you want to measure continuity between. If the resistance is large usually indicated by "OL" (for open loop) you have an open circuit. If the value is close to zero you have an closed circuit. Change the position of the switch to verify that the contacts change state.
Alternatively, there might be a diode testing mode on your meter that measures the voltage drop across a diode. It usually has a convenient beep when you are measuring a diode that is forward biased and conducting. In this case a closed circuit between the terminals looks like a diode that is conducting. So you will get a beep if its closed. If you're not sure, go with the resistance setting.

 

[nameless]

You can test the switches without power. In fact you should always do that if you don't know what's what. Your multimeter might have an option that looks like a little speaker. Select that and touch the probes together. If you hear a tone that means there is continuity between the two probes. If you don't have that option, set the multimeter to any of the numbers next to the omega symbol. These measure resistance, so when you touch the probes together it should read 0 or close to it because there is no resistance between the probes.

Start with the 2 way switch. Touch one probe to each pin. If the meter makes a sound or shows 0, the switch is on. If it doesn't, flip the switch and try it again, it should work.

For the 3 way switch you need to find the common pin, which is often physically apart from the others. I'm assuming there are 4 pins on that switch? Moving the switch will give you continuity between the three pins and the common pin, so just methodically touch the pins with the multimeter until you find out what's what.

 

[jawilson20]

Alright guys! I am getting somewhere thanks to you help!

System power switch is wired up and working. Pump switches are wired up and working.

Now to wire the 3 way selector switches and PIDs. I have been following CollinsBrew control panel build here https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/finally-wooden-single-tier-underway-289595/index8.html#post3982251.

Lots of good photos and directions of the bottom side of the panel, but not much to go off of to wire up the PID and alone from the wires that go to the manual switch and the wires that go to TH on my Honeywell valve, I am lost.

What I need to know-

I have one 24v wire running directly to my manual switch - what should the other end of the circuit connect to?

Where on the PID do the three wires coming off my RTD connector go to on my PID?

I am pretty clueless as to where the wires should be run that come off of the auto side of my switch.


I feel like I am getting close guys. Thanks again for the help!

 

[jawilson20]

I am soooo close... Anyone care to help me out?

 

[jawilson20]

Let me ask this then... can I mess anything up if I connect to the wrong posts on the PID? Guess it is gonna need to be trial and error.

 

[FastTalker]

As an electrical engineer I have to say that the best thing you can do is use a qualified electrician. Things like this can be very dangerous, especially without the appropriate safeguards, like GFCIs, branch-rated fuses and CBs, appropriately sized wire, etc.

I really need more information. Do you have a schematic or wiring diagram? I'm just going to make a lot of assumptions.

Where on the PID do the three wires coming off my RTD connector go to on my PID?

Assuming you are using the exact same PID as CollinsBrew in the thread you referenced. The RTD should be landed on terminals 8, 9, & 10. Hopefully, is is a 3-wire RTD. Terminals 9 and 10 get the two wires that are the same color. Also, try to keep this cable away from power wires and relays since they can generate a lot of electrical noise that would affect the PIDs ability to accurately read the temperature.
http://auberins.com/images/Manual/SYL-2362 instruction 1.6.pdf

I have one 24v wire running directly to my manual switch - what should the other end of the circuit connect to?

I am pretty clueless as to where the wires should be run that come off of the auto side of my switch.

It's still not exactly clear to me, but it sounds like you want HOA (HAND-OFF-AUTO) control for your valve. So, I'm assuming you are using the 3-pos switch. There are several ways to approach this. Again, assuming you're using the SYL-2363 PID controller there is not a way to signal to the controller that you are in manual mode except for pressing a button on the controller which only works in PID mode anyway. I assume you are using On/Off mode.

So, on the 3-pos switch:

1. Jumper two adjacent terminals together to make them common.
2. Land the wire that drives your valve on one of the two terminals that you just jumpered together.
3. Land your output from the PID on one of the other terminals (on the side you want to be the Auto position of the switch.
4. Land a hot wire on the final terminal. (This will be the manual position.)

So your result should be that in the middle position, your valve is off since neither of the contacts are closed. When in the auto position you are connecting the signal from the PID to the valve and when the manual position you are just connecting the hot to the valve to turn it on all the time.

 

[FastTalker]

Let me ask this then... can I mess anything up if I connect to the wrong posts on the PID? Guess it is gonna need to be trial and error.

Yes, potentially.

 

[jawilson20]

As an electrical engineer I have to say that the best thing you can do is use a qualified electrician. Things like this can be very dangerous, especially without the appropriate safeguards, like GFCIs, branch-rated fuses and CBs, appropriately sized wire, etc.

I really need more information. Do you have a schematic or wiring diagram? I'm just going to make a lot of assumptions.



Assuming you are using the exact same PID as CollinsBrew in the thread you referenced. The RTD should be landed on terminals 8, 9, & 10. Hopefully, is is a 3-wire RTD. Terminals 9 and 10 get the two wires that are the same color. Also, try to keep this cable away from power wires and relays since they can generate a lot of electrical noise that would affect the PIDs ability to accurately read the temperature.
http://auberins.com/images/Manual/SYL-2362 instruction 1.6.pdf





It's still not exactly clear to me, but it sounds like you want HOA (HAND-OFF-AUTO) control for your valve. So, I'm assuming you are using the 3-pos switch. There are several ways to approach this. Again, assuming you're using the SYL-2363 PID controller there is not a way to signal to the controller that you are in manual mode except for pressing a button on the controller which only works in PID mode anyway. I assume you are using On/Off mode.

So, on the 3-pos switch:

1. Jumper two adjacent terminals together to make them common.
2. Land the wire that drives your valve on one of the two terminals that you just jumpered together.
3. Land your output from the PID on one of the other terminals (on the side you want to be the Auto position of the switch.
4. Land a hot wire on the final terminal. (This will be the manual position.)

So your result should be that in the middle position, your valve is off since neither of the contacts are closed. When in the auto position you are connecting the signal from the PID to the valve and when the manual position you are just connecting the hot to the valve to turn it on all the time.

Yes I do have the exact same PID so I should now be good to go on my RTD connections.

I just made a extension cord with two male ends and was able to test that I am getting 120 volts on the free end. Yet, when I plug it into my GFCI outlet on my system I seem to get no downstream power. Even at the outlet itself. I would imagine that I should see 120 volts on the open receptacle, yet even there I see nothing. Also, the GFCI outlet has a indicator light that should shine green when the outlet is not tripped and has power, this light is not lit. In case you are wondering, I have pressed the reset button on the outlet.

 

[P-J]

...
I just made a extension cord with two male ends and was able to test that I am getting 120 volts on the free end.
...

That is a REALLY BAD idea. You are playing a very serious game of "You Bet Your Life".!

 

[jawilson20]

That is a REALLY BAD idea. You are playing a very serious game of "You Bet Your Life".!

It is a bad idea? HD does not carry dual male ended cords. What is the difference here and creating cord with female plugs for my pumps to plug into?

 

[jawilson20]

That is a REALLY BAD idea. You are playing a very serious game of "You Bet Your Life".!

It is pretty much what Collinsbrew did here - https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/finally-wooden-single-tier-underway-289595/index8.html#post3982251

 

[P-J]

It is a bad idea? HD does not carry dual male ended cords. What is the difference here and creating cord with female plugs for my pumps to plug into?

It is a 120V extension cord with 120V exposed on the male plug prongs. Touch it and you could be dead.!

It is pretty much what Collinsbrew did here - https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/finally-wooden-single-tier-underway-289595/index8.html#post3982251

I do not see anything on that post/thread that indicates what you have chosen to do.

Please rethink this. You life will depend on it.

 

[jawilson20]

It is a 120V extension cord with 120V exposed on the male plug prongs. Touch it and you could be dead.!


I do not see anything on that post/thread that indicates what you have chosen to do.

Please rethink this. You life will depend on it.

Looking at the panel linked above you can see that his control panel includes a traditional female GFCI outlet mounted to the panel. As I understand this outlet serves as the method of inputting power to his system.

With the dual male extension cord I have, I will take care to plug into the control panel prior to plugging into the wall - resulting in no exposed live prongs.

If this is not the solution - what do you recommend? I have been trying to replicate what appears to be quality panels that have good documentation.

 

[jawilson20]

Looking at the panel linked above you can see that his control panel includes a traditional female GFCI outlet mounted to the panel. As I understand this outlet serves as the method of inputting power to his system.

With the dual male extension cord I have, I will take care to plug into the control panel prior to plugging into the wall - resulting in no exposed live prongs.

If this is not the solution - what do you recommend? I have been trying to replicate what appears to be quality panels that have good documentation.

Maybe I am misinterpreting. Is a male ended outlet run off the GFCI so that a traditional ended extension cord can be used to provided power and still have GFCI protection in the system?

 

[P-J]

I do not see what you referenced. GFCI outlet used as power input? Not a chance.

 

[jawilson20]

Now we are in business! I wired the extension cord coming from the wall directly to the rear of my GFCI receptacle and my system power switch is also wired to that receptacle.

I was able to test that my system power switch works and my pump switches work, now to the valves...

 

[jawilson20]

Yes I do have the exact same PID so I should now be good to go on my RTD connections.

I just made a extension cord with two male ends and was able to test that I am getting 120 volts on the free end. Yet, when I plug it into my GFCI outlet on my system I seem to get no downstream power. Even at the outlet itself. I would imagine that I should see 120 volts on the open receptacle, yet even there I see nothing. Also, the GFCI outlet has a indicator light that should shine green when the outlet is not tripped and has power, this light is not lit. In case you are wondering, I have pressed the reset button on the outlet.

I have wired up the selector switches as you instructed and the burner fires on both the manual and auto controlled sides regardless of temp on the PID (SV below the actual value). On the auto side the switch has an input from pin 14 on the PID and the other side is run directly to the valve. It seems like I am missing something on the settings...

 

[jawilson20]

It is a 120V extension cord with 120V exposed on the male plug prongs. Touch it and you could be dead.!


I do not see anything on that post/thread that indicates what you have chosen to do.

Please rethink this. You life will depend on it.

Thanks for the warnings. I now understand that the GFCI outlet is really just down stream from the 120 volt input in order to provide GFCI protection. I had always assumed that is where the power came into the system. So at the end of the day the system will just have two receptacles available on the GFCI.

 

[jawilson20]

I have wired up the selector switches as you instructed and the burner fires on both the manual and auto controlled sides regardless of temp on the PID (SV below the actual value). On the auto side the switch has an input from pin 14 on the PID and the other side is run directly to the valve. It seems like I am missing something on the settings...

Any ideas here? Again, this side of the switch includes the output from pin 14 on the auber and a run to the valve. It seems that there is a setting on the PID I am missing, becuase the PID never appears to be telling the valve to close.

 

[P-J]

Any ideas here? Again, this side of the switch includes the output from pin 14 on the auber and a run to the valve. It seems that there is a setting on the PID I am missing, becuase the PID never appears to be telling the valve to close.

Sounds like you need to program the PID.

Here is a link to the manual: SYL-2362 PID TEMP CONTROL MANUAL

 

[jawilson20]

Sounds like you need to program the PID.

Here is a link to the manual: SYL-2362 PID TEMP CONTROL MANUAL

Thanks for referencing the manual for the PID. I have reviewed it and am not sure which settings I should program to. I have seen a lot discussion recommending use of the On/Off mode (step 7). Is this the mode I want to use and would running it in the default settings result in the issues I have described?

 

[jawilson20]

Well, I am going to give the On/Off mode a shot tonight in hopes that is what needs to be done.

 

[FastTalker]

Is this the mode I want to use and would running it in the default settings result in the issues I have described?

According to the manual the initial value for your output control mode is 2 (PID). So depending on what the the setpoint and the temperature were when you tried it, that could have easily explained why it wasn't telling the valve to close.

I would think you would want to use the On/Off mode.

 

[Poobah58]

Talk about scary! Maybe you should post your wiring diagram so we can make sure you're not going to burn something down or zap yourself! Have you done any current calculations to make sure the wire you are using is OK or that the current draw doesn't exceed the rating of the switches you are using? Better safe than sorry...

 

[jawilson20]

Talk about scary! Maybe you should post your wiring diagram so we can make sure you're not going to burn something down or zap yourself! Have you done any current calculations to make sure the wire you are using is OK or that the current draw doesn't exceed the rating of the switches you are using? Better safe than sorry...

I have not. Per a recommendation in another thread I am using 16 gauge starnded copper wire. The wiring is exactly like Collinbrew linked earlier in this thread.

 

[jawilson20]

According to the manual the initial value for your output control mode is 2 (PID). So depending on what the the setpoint and the temperature were when you tried it, that could have easily explained why it wasn't telling the valve to close.

I would think you would want to use the On/Off mode.

So an Outy setting of 3 is what I want for On/Off. I will give that a shot tonight.