Seeking help for a catastrophic contamination issue

[bfialkoff]

Hey so im a pretty experienced homebrewer ive been doing this for almost 2 years. i started with small extracts and eventually started selling and moved to a pretty kick ass all grain system and.

that was last september since then ive been brewing about 80 litres every week everything was going great until about 8 weeks ago when i got a contaminated batch.

it is as we all know the worst thing that can happen to a brewer. ive spoken with all sorts of other brewers to try and locate the problem and it is with no small amount of desperation that i turn to the internet for help. as far as i can tell my whole operation is spanking clean.

except that its not because ive lost 9 batches of beer. a serious loss considering the quantity i brew.

i brew outdoors and i cool using a 20 plate heat exchanger
fermentors get cleaned with iodine solution
the taps get disassembled soaked in caustic soda boiled and then washed
the heat exchange get pumped with caustic soda.
the bottles are also washed with caustic and sanitized before use
transfer tubes also cleaned in caustic

and obviously spoons and the like are sanitized before and between each use

i cant find this problem. please help!!!!

 

[FirstAidBrewing]

Has this been 9 batches in a row or are they spread out?

 

[homebrewdr]

Could be lots of things. Do you have a ball valve? If so, have you disassembled it and cleaned it out? Lots of people get infections because they forget about the ball valve on the kettle or other connections.

Depending on how it tastes, it might even be possible to salvage it into a sour beer. There are some posts about that on the forum somewhere.

Wait.. 9 batches?!

 

[hottpeper13]

Could be lots of things. Do you have a ball valve? If so, have you disassembled it and cleaned it out? Lots of people get infections because they forget about the ball valve on the kettle or other connections.

Depending on how it tastes, it might even be possible to salvage it into a sour beer. There are some posts about that on the forum somewhere.

Wait.. 9 batches?!

+1 on the ball valve. When I got my first and only infection(knock on wood) I replaced all my plastic and it never happened again. I have since switched to antimicrobial silicone hoses.

 

[Zinc_Saucier]

Assuming that nothing has changed with your sanitizing (for bottles/utensils/etc), I'd start with the plate chiller.

How do you sanitize the chiller/transfer tubing? I see the caustic soda for cleaning, have you tried baking the chiller in the oven? **Note, I don't have a plate chiller, or know if yours can be baked, just have read about instructions to do so to help clean out any gunk**

I don't think it's the ball valve as the two posts above. If the wort is passing through the valve before the plate chiller, it should be way too hot for bacteria to survive.

 

[kombat]

Wait ... you're brewing and selling 80 liters a week, from your home? You have the appropriate licensing and are paying all the necessary taxes... right?

 

[Oberon67]

Wait ... you're brewing and selling 80 liters a week, from your home? You have the appropriate licensing and are paying all the necessary taxes... right?

No need to jump to conclusions. He didn't say he was doing that from his home.

 

[kombat]

He said he's a homebrewer, and that he's started selling his beer. He brews outdoors. What professional brewery brews outdoors? He uses a 20-plate plate chiller. Kinda small for a professional brewery, don't you think? Heck, I just brew 5 and 10 gallon batches and even my plate chiller has 30 plates. Even the quantity (80 liters/week) is too much for a homebrewer, but waaaaay too little for a proper, professional brewery. Even proper nanobreweries manage to crank out several hundred liters/week. To me, everything suggests he's brewing on a home system, and selling the beer (which, of course, is illegal).

Am I alone in this conclusion?

 

[cjbalough]

He doesn't say where he is either -- may not be a problem if he is selling his beer.

 

[Hello]

OP: Like another has mentioned, I think the plate chiller needs to be addressed first. You mentioned taps that you clean, which I am unsure if you really meant all ball valves or actual taps that you see on a kegging system. If you meant taps then it is time to disassemble your ball valves on your vessels and clean them out. While you're cleaning with caustic solutions, are you running sanitizer through things prior to transfer or do you sanitize after you clean and then not again? There is so much that can happen from brew day to brew day to your stuff so sanitizing just before use is key.

You discuss bottles, what about the caps? Do you sanitize those prior to use?

How are you pitching your yeast? Do you rehydrate dry yeast? How are you doing that and are you sanitizing the vessel you rehydrate in prior to use? What about whatever you use to cover the cup (assuming it is like that) while you rehydrate. Do you use liquid yeast? What's the sanitizing process with your yeast starters if you use them? When you cut open the dry yeast package, what do you use? Do you dunk your scissors or knife in star san? Are your scissors gunky? I have dedicated scissors for my brew rig. This way I know they're not being used on food or anything. They look like kitchen sheers so it would be easy for someone to grab them and start cutting food. No joke.

There are a lot of little things that could be going on here, but you clearly have an issue.

He said he's a homebrewer, and that he's started selling his beer. He brews outdoors. What professional brewery brews outdoors? He uses a 20-plate plate chiller. Kinda small for a professional brewery, don't you think? Heck, I just brew 5 and 10 gallon batches and even my plate chiller has 30 plates. Even the quantity (80 liters/week) is too much for a homebrewer, but waaaaay too little for a proper, professional brewery. Even proper nanobreweries manage to crank out several hundred liters/week. To me, everything suggests he's brewing on a home system, and selling the beer (which, of course, is illegal).

Am I alone in this conclusion?

Nope.

He doesn't say where he is either -- may not be a problem if he is selling his beer.

Very true. I don't know state to state laws, but I'd venture a guess that selling beer made at home from your home, if that is what is happening, without a license is actually probably not okay in many states. Perhaps there is a country that allows it, but I don't think it is okay in the US. Government wants their taxes. Plain and simple.

 

[zefbrew]

Sub'd

 

[wilserbrewer]

fermentors get cleaned with iodine solution.
please help!!!!

My understanding is that iodine is a sanitizer, and not a cleaner???

How are you cleaning the fermenters?

What type of fermenters are you using?

 

[IslandLizard]

fermentors get cleaned with iodine solution

Iodine doesn't clean, it sanitizes. How do you clean the fermentors? Do they have nooks and crannies where bugs can hide? Like underneath rims, lids, in threaded fittings, valves, etc. I would scrutinize the cold side, including your hoses and couplers and the plate chiller as was mentioned already.

Where in the world are you? Can you get rinse free sanitizers like Starsan or Saniclean?

Could it be infected yeast?

 

[jbb3]

Boy it didn't take long for this thread to turn...

FOCUS PEOPLE

Plate chiller.... Never used one but hear a lot of bad stories. You could have some organic matter lodged somewhere and even with sanitizing may not take care of a problem.

Fermenter; plastic or stainless?? If plastic, they will only last a couple of years due to wear and tear, scratching. With the volume you're producing, that wear and tear is accelerated. If plastic, replace your valve and don't forget to clean the thermowell and any other fitting or protrusion in the fermenter.

BK; It is easy to overlook good cleaning and practices with your BK. After all, you're boiling the wort right? There are bugs that pretty tough. If you have a well where your thermometer mounts, that would be something to dissemble and clean.

Dissemble and clean ALL your valves, consider replacing your hoses, not sure what type of fittings you're using but they need to be cleaned.

Dissemble and clean everything! Many of us don't do that often enough.

Man... Keep us posted!

 

[bfialkoff]

first of all thank you all so much for the quick responses i really appreciate it

ok i dont really know how to respond to threads individually so ill do a general response.

yes all the contamination have been in a row.

the fermetors (PLASTIC) are cleaned with soap and water and sometimes caustic as well depending on how stubborn the gunk is. after i wash them i let them soak in the iodine sit in them while im waiting to load up beer.
the taps that i was referring to are the plastic taps that are on my fermentors (unfortunately) heres a link to a picture of the tap
http://thumbs3.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mX_NHuv48CIe6_2gKpM9Oww.jpg
which i disassemble.

no nooks and crannies. also ive tried borrowing other fermentors to check if that was the problem. no dice.


so i thought that the chiller might be the problem so i cleaned by pumping hot caustic water through a number of times for about 20 minutes at a time
in addition i tried cooling my last batch using a copper coil
http://www.homebrewing.org/assets/images/01_dsc0934.jpg
to isolate that issue as well. no dice.

the hoses (also plastic) are all being soaked in caustic and then iodine.

yeast is also not the problem.

i also have metal taps on my pots.
http://www.b2b-today.com/userimg/9/213-1/brass-ball-valve-31375.jpg
those i have never disassembled and have been hearing that might be the problem. i had thought that it would be hot enough to avoid problems

bottles and caps are of course sterilized as well

a bit more info:
im rehydrating yeast in sterile containers of course
all equipment goes through the above mentioned cleaning process before every brew.


and just to clarify i am not in the US i run a smalltown business in central israel. not from my home so i guess homebrewer is the wrong title but im still too small time to be called a microbrewer i guess. i kind of exist somewhere in the middle and im growing slowly. and yes all appropriate business rules are being observed.

hope this helps! thanks for the advice

 

[zefbrew]

are you re-pitching yeast? what about the process you use to make starter yeast?