Sediment / sourness problem

[tallor242]

Here's my situation:
I have a fresh-pressed (Gala, Fuji, crabapple) batch of cider in a 3 gallon carboy. OG was 1.050. Sulfited it to kill the baddies, then 48 hours later pitched Wyeast Cider Yeast It went pretty steadily in the primary for 5 days or so, then really slowed down. Now it's been 8 days and it is at a standstill. I noticed that the cider cleared dramatically in the past few days - really turned a nice golden brown. However, no fermentation after 8 days had me worried. So I took a sample. SG was down to 0.994!!

Unfortunately, it smelled rather sour, kind of like a sour beer or sourdough bread. There was a TON of sediment at the bottom of the primary. Some of the apple pulp/skins definitely got through the pressing process. So I decided to rack to get rid of some of that sediment. I had no available carboys so I just racked to a bucket, did a quick sanitation of the original carboy, then racked back. Some of the yeast/pulp/skins came through - it was so thick that the racking cane still picked it up readily. However, I think I got rid of most of the sediment.

Perhaps I should have RDWHAHB'ed, but with zero fermentation going on I figured it couldn't hurt. The sample didn't taste horrible or putrid, but it definitely wasn't tasty. However, after 8 days I wouldn't really expect a good taste. I was just surprised at how fast fermentation came to a halt.

Questions are twofold:
1. Did I do anything stupid above?
2. Is this beer-y kind of sourness just a result of yeast in suspension? Will it likely go away? I'm hoping yes.

 

[Yooper]

It's ok to rack when you need to. Fresh fruit causes lots of lees, and you may need to rack several times. I usually do my primary in a bucket (covered with a towel) until the SG is around 1.020, then rack into a carboy to finish up. I then rack about every 30-45 times, whenever I have lees.

As to the sourness, it could just be the cider. Newly fermented beverages don't always taste good. One thing you could do to "check" on it is to pull out a bit of a sample, and add some sweetening. Maybe some honey or sugar. See if that improves the taste (I am betting it will). Dry young cider just isn't going to taste really great. It's not because of the yeast, it's because of the cider and the lack of sugar in it. It does improve dramatically with some time.

 

[tallor242]

Thanks. Good to know that racking off the lees is common with fresh fruits. One thing you said is "I then rack about every 30-45 times" - can you explain what that means?

I'm going to give it a week or so and have a taste. I'm hoping time will be the cure. My juice batch tasted so-so at 2 weeks and good at 4. I'm tasting this one at 8 days, so maybe it just needs more time.

 

[Tusch]

8 days is FAR from done. I believe what she meant was 30-45 days. Another good rule of thumb I know she's told me, is to rack whenever you have 1/4 of lees on the bottom.

 

[Yooper]

Thanks. Good to know that racking off the lees is common with fresh fruits. One thing you said is "I then rack about every 30-45 times" - can you explain what that means?

I'm going to give it a week or so and have a taste. I'm hoping time will be the cure. My juice batch tasted so-so at 2 weeks and good at 4. I'm tasting this one at 8 days, so maybe it just needs more time.

Yeah, I meant every 30-45 days. Sorry about that. I didn't even see that typo. And it's correct that I also rack whenever I have more than a light dusting of lees after a period of time. If you've got a lot of lees on the bottom, the dead yeast can autolyze and fruit actually start to rot.

Don't rush fermentation- I never bottling anything (wines, meads, ciders) until no lees drop, it's perfectly clear, and of course done fermenting. This might take 9 months- 15 months or so.

 

[tallor242]

8 days is FAR from done. I believe what she meant was 30-45 days. Another good rule of thumb I know she's told me, is to rack whenever you have 1/4 of lees on the bottom.

Yeah, I'm just figuring at SG 0.994, the primary fermentation is pretty much done. I've just never seen it finish that quickly. Certainly there's a long way to go on the secondary fermentation.

My other batch tasted good after 4 weeks, so I bottled it. I definitely don't plan on bottling this one before 4 weeks, but I'm limited on carboy space, so I will probably rack again then, take a sip and see how it's doing.

 

[Tusch]

Well it may be done fermenting, and at .994 it either is or will be anytime soon. But that doesn't mean its done. I prefer to bulk age, so I would rather let it age and clear in a carboy then rack when its young. Because

complete fermentation != drinkable

 

[tallor242]

Can you explain why that is? My thoughts for cider are:

1. Secondary fermentation of malic acid needs to occur for the cider to taste good.
2. There may still be a lot of yeast in suspension.

YooperBrew stated that #2 is probably not the issue. So is it just #1, or is there another factor that I'm unaware of?

 

[Yooper]

MLF doesn't have to occur for the cider to taste good. In fact, just the contrary. If the malic acid ferments to lactic acid, sometimes you lose that wonderful "apple" that is apple cider. I would go out of my way to prevent MLF in cider, by sulfiting and keeping the environment inhospitable to spontaneous MLF.

I would say to let it be at this point- the cider isn't even finished fermenting. Some sweetening can soften the tartness later, if needed.

 

[tallor242]

I'm definitely going to give at least 3 additional weeks no matter what. I'm not worried about that. What I'd like to understand is this: what process is occurring during those 3 weeks that is changing the character and taste of the cider? Right now, I wouldn't describe it as "tart" like an apple would be tart. Instead, it is sour, tastes somewhat like beer, and generally just tastes very bad. I wish I had a better vocabulary to differentiate the tastes.

With an SG of .994 it would really surprise me if there was a lot more primary fermentation (sugar->alcohol) to go. It did surprise me that the yeast took it from 1.050 to .994 in 8 days.

 

[Tusch]

I have wanted to know the exact chemical or physical changes going on as well, but haven't taken the time to read up on it yet. There are several books that discuss it, mainly with wine. I imagine its similar in cider. The flavors tend to mellow and evolve in aging. Much like wine, without aging ciders tend to be quite harsh in their young or green stages.

Perhaps Yooper can shine a bit more light on the issue