Secondary fermentation vs. maturation time

[dannyonions]

Hey guys,

First of all, I just wanna say thanks to everyone on these forums posting knowledge and tips. I'm now on my 9th batch of beer and I've hit up this incredible resource time and time again when I was freaking out about one thing or another. You guys rule! Cheers!

Ok, so I recently learned (on this forum) that Secondary fermentation is totally not necessary unless you are actually going to add additional flavouring/dry hopping. Great! However, I've recently brewed a Saison and a Nut Brown ale that I kinda sorta based on recipes in Radical Brewing by Randy Mosher. In both cases, he recommends extended maturation periods (2 months for the Saison and 3 months for the Brown Ale!)

What do I do in these cases? Surely I can't leave these 2 beers in their primary pails for that long?

thanks!

 

[jester5120]

you should be able to without any issues. I personnally would just do the secondary though. it'll eliminate any chance of off flavors coming from the yeast.

 

[brokebucket]

2-3 months seems a long time to leave on the yeast.

Can you bottle condition for that length, or does he specifically say to leave in ferment for that long?

What gains would a beer have sitting in ferment stage for that length if you are not adding additional ingredients to the fermenter (such as fruit or oak, etc.) that would not be gained from bottle conditioning?

 

[dannyonions]

Wow, fast answers. Thanks guys.

The recipes in Radical Brewing (great book overall!) are I think purposefully vague. He doesn't say anything about what states the beers should be in for these maturation times, just gives a number.

I think I will just rack to secondary in both cases and then bottle condition as usual.

This is my second Saison and the first worked out great and I had that in a secondary for a month and a half, so maybe I should just stick with what works. I was just hoping to save the step and also I'm running out of fermentation real estate since I have 3 beers on the go right now. But ya, I was nervous about leaving them on the yeast for that long.

cheers!

 

[GrogNerd]

the nut brown recipe in the book does say "maturation: 8-12 weeks" however, in earlier chapters he says "ready to bottle or keg within a month for normal-sized beers"

that nut brown is 5-5.8% ABV, I would say "normal-size," so the extra 8 weeks must be bottle conditioning

 

[jester5120]

i can't say for sure what either of those beers would gain from 2-3 months in a fermenter, maybe the saison will dry out a bit more. but i've heard the advantage to bulk aging a beer instead of just bottling and letting it age in there is consistency. a bulk aged beer will be more consistent from bottle to bottle than one that got bottled a little earlier. honestly i've never noticed a significatn difference in doing one method vs. the other though.

Wow, fast answers. Thanks guys.

I'm at work and i'm very bored

 

[xtian116]

I'd go with whatever works for you. I have a couple recipes that I leave in the primary for up to 5 months. I guess it all depends on what you want to make.
Some I keep in for only a week then in the secondary for 2, but like you said, usually adding something too it then.

 

[RuffRider]

IMHO, bottle 'em! I don't see anything to gain by leaving them in the fermenter except maybe some off-flavors from the yeast cake or increased risk of infection by transferring to secondary. They will age just fine in the bottle. If you were oak cask aging, dry hopping, using wood chips, fruit, etc that's a different story.

 

[billl]

There is zero risk of any off flavors from leaving the beer on the yeast for several months. It's an old brewing myth that refuses to die.

You can leave it in the fermenter if you want. You can bottle it if you want. Personally, I'd let them ferment out and let the yeast drop (3 weeks or so) and then bottle. No use tying up a primary for multiple months for each brew.

 

[RuffRider]

There is zero risk of any off flavors from leaving the beer on the yeast for several months. It's an old brewing myth that refuses to die.

Certainly a good point. The off-flavor from yeast cake thing is certainly the beer boogy-man many seem to be afraid to encounter. I admit that I don't have any experience with it. I still run from the boogy-man!

You are right in that the better argument is that it would unnecessarily tie up the primary fermenter.

 

[cgg]

I have found that leaving the beer in primary for 4-5 weeks allows the yeast time to work all their magic and for the beer to "drop bright."

Then to the bottles, where the aging (conditioning) happens. With the beer in bottles (and carbed) it is easy to monitor the progression of the flavor profile.

 

[srmarcondes]

If you wait long enough you can taste a difference in some beers... Also the advantage of bulk conditioning is that more yeast and other stuff that may still be floating will precipitate. I really liked the results of leaving the corny keg at cold temp for a couple of weeks... A lot more settled and it was so easy to flush it out before releasing that batch (either bottling or tapping)

 

[kontrol]

When the primary fermentation finishes or is about to finish the yeast goes in a "conditioning" phase. They start converting heavier sugar like Maltotriose and byproducts produced in the primary fermentations. These byproducts can result in off flavors.

John Palmer also explain why the beer should be removed from the yeast cake if possible. It's only part of the page, I recommend reading the whole page because he says you could also leave the beer on the yeast cake... (http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter8-2-3.html) I also recommend reading the whole "Fermentation" section for great knowledge

"Under some conditions, the yeast will also consume some of the compounds in the trub. The "fermentation" of these compounds can produce several off-flavors. In addition, the dormant yeast on the bottom of the fermentor begin excreting more amino and fatty acids. Leaving the post-primary beer on the trub and yeast cake for too long (more than about three weeks) will tend to result in soapy flavors becoming evident. Further, after very long times the yeast begin to die and break down - autolysis, which produces yeasty or rubbery/fatty/meaty flavors and aromas. For these reasons, it can be important to get the beer off of the trub and dormant yeast during the conditioning phase."

 

[billl]

"John Palmer also explain why the beer should be removed from the yeast cake if possible."

Palmer has retracted all of that. The online version is the "old" book and he's made quite a few updates over the years.

 

[dannyonions]

Ya, my friends and I live in fear of Autolysis from all our beginner-book readings. But we've never experienced it.

For me, the biggest job of brewing so far has been managing my anxieties and doubts. I've yet to brew a beer that I haven't totally enjoyed, but I still sweat bullets every step of the way. Can't wait till I'm a more relaxed brewer.

Here's what I think I'm gonna do based on all your advice:

Bottle my Saison and Nut Brown Ale when the three weeks is up! Sit on 'em for as long as I can possibly stand it. Maybe taste a few now and again to see how their coming along.

 

[srmarcondes]

You should get a pipeline going... That way you won't be tempted to drink too soon, because there will be plenty around.... I got 7 batches since early March... still working on the first one...

 

[kontrol]

"John Palmer also explain why the beer should be removed from the yeast cake if possible."

Palmer has retracted all of that. The online version is the "old" book and he's made quite a few updates over the years.

All of it really? Damn, I was living in a lie all that time... Thank for letter me know.

 

[dannyonions]

I'm sorta on that track right now: in addition to the Saison and Nut Brown, I also brewed a Dead Guy Ale clone and a Porter all in the span of 2 weeks. I'm also researching more recipes to move on so that I'm basically drinking 90% My Own Beer this summer.

 

[srmarcondes]

I'm sorta on that track right now: in addition to the Saison and Nut Brown, I also brewed a Dead Guy Ale clone and a Porter all in the span of 2 weeks. I'm also researching more recipes to move on so that I'm basically drinking 90% My Own Beer this summer.

nice!

i brewed this many for the couples shower the better half wants to throw. it was a good excuse to have her on board with all this brewing...

i learned so much doing them that I only wish I could do another bunch asap....