Second fermentation..... When?

[RM-MN]

Josh, I'll challenge the claim that there are no pros and cons.

Let's start with ease of cleaning the prumary vessel. Is it easier to clean it after 4 days or 3 weeks? After 4 days I can rinse it with hot water and light sponge rub and then Starsan to sanitize.

You can pick the next one.

After 9 weeks of beer in my primary fermenter all I needed to do was rinse with hot water and a ligh sponge rub. Starsan to sanitize before the next batch goes in. What's so difficult about that?

 

[brettg20]

I will never understand why people use a secondary unless bulk aging. If nothing else you are introducing the beer to unnecessary problems without benefit. Cold crash the beer if you're doing it to make it clear

 

[eadavis80]

I don't really have cold crashing options as I don't have another fridge to put the beer in and my basement is not cold enough to cold crash. Plus, using a secondary frees up the primary for a future batch (as has been stated), plus I've read - though I can't confirm - that harvesting yeast is best done when harvesting from yeast in primary, not secondary. Those are the three primary reasons I rack, even though I don't usually need to free up the primary as I have 2 others. Brew on!

 

[Subdivisions]

So I'm not quite new here but I've been away for a while. And apparently my search capabilities are infantile... Have an IPA that has been fermenting for a week steadily. There are still a few bubbles on the top but I'm wondering can I transfer it to a secondary now and leave it for another week until it stabilizes? Thanks...

I don't think we've heard from the OP during this discussion. I'm curious as to his plans for this brew now that he's thoroughly confused.

 

[joshesmusica]

I don't really have cold crashing options as I don't have another fridge to put the beer in and my basement is not cold enough to cold crash. Plus, using a secondary frees up the primary for a future batch (as has been stated), plus I've read - though I can't confirm - that harvesting yeast is best done when harvesting from yeast in primary, not secondary. Those are the three primary reasons I rack, even though I don't usually need to free up the primary as I have 2 others. Brew on!

i have no problem cleaning my primary. hot water, soak in cleaner for a couple of days, light scrub and hot water. poof. clean. come on, this is normal skill level.

i don't have cold crashing options, but i do bottle. 2-3 weeks primary. 3 weeks bottled. chill in fridge for a couple of days before consumption. poof. clear beer. come on, again, normal skill level.

primary fermenting buckets are way cheaper than carboys. so instead of racking to a carboy in order to clear up a primary, i would rather just buy a new fermenting bucket. seriously, normal, beginner skill level.

i ferment for 2-3 weeks, then harvest my yeast from there if i'm going to. if you're harvesting after fermentation, you should really be cleaning anyways. the best practices for harvesting yeast are to either take it at krausen, or to make a larger starter than you actually need and use half of it for harvest, half to pitch in your beer. this isn't just normal skill level, but seriously, how hard could it be to understand this concept?

so far all those cons have been busted. got anymore?

justlooking, are you just here to make random comments and then pop back out without adding to the conversation, or just don't want to blow my small mind with your vast wisdom?

 

[IDoBleedBrew]

Man... let me thank those of you now who are able to respond without so much attitude. Those of us not on a "normal skill level" just yet truly do appreciate it. And I promise that when I do get to a normal skill level, I'll do what I can to assist others while leaving the attitude and condescension on this side of the keyboard.

 

[joshesmusica]

Man... let me thank those of you now who are able to respond without so much attitude. Those of us not on a "normal skill level" just yet truly do appreciate it. And I promise that when I do get to a normal skill level, I'll do what I can to assist others while leaving the attitude and condescension on this side of the keyboard.

if you thought that was aimed at you, i apologize. it was more aimed toward the original normal skill level comment:

Uh-huh. No need for a pro here. This is normal skill level.

 

[joshesmusica]

So I'm not quite new here but I've been away for a while. And apparently my search capabilities are infantile... Have an IPA that has been fermenting for a week steadily. There are still a few bubbles on the top but I'm wondering can I transfer it to a secondary now and leave it for another week until it stabilizes? Thanks...

final point boils down to this:
if you plan to do a secondary, wait until it's about 90-95% done with fermentation (doing it before fermentation is done will help to drive off any oxygen in the carboy). try not to go off of bubbles in the airlock or appearance of the beer in the fermenter. the only way to know for sure if it's at that point is a gravity check. make sure everything that touches that beer is sanitized very well. make sure your siphon hose is all the way down to the bottom of the secondary. you don't want any splashing and you want to fill from the bottom to avoid oxidation. you want as little headspace as possible. you want to dry hop for 7 days max, but you can do it anywhere from 3-7 days. if you have pellets, just go ahead and toss those into the secondary vessel before racking your beer. if you have the capability, it's a good idea to cold crash before bottling/kegging if you're just going to throw the hops in there loose.

hope that's enough to get you going into a secondary, but just know, it's not necessary for this style of beer, as you can do any dry hopping you want in the primary.

 

[Subdivisions]

final point boils down to this:
if you plan to do a secondary, wait until it's about 90-95% done with fermentation (doing it before fermentation is done will help to drive off any oxygen in the carboy). try not to go off of bubbles in the airlock or appearance of the beer in the fermenter. the only way to know for sure if it's at that point is a gravity check. make sure everything that touches that beer is sanitized very well. make sure your siphon hose is all the way down to the bottom of the secondary. you don't want any splashing and you want to fill from the bottom to avoid oxidation. you want as little headspace as possible. you want to dry hop for 7 days max, but you can do it anywhere from 3-7 days. if you have pellets, just go ahead and toss those into the secondary vessel before racking your beer. if you have the capability, it's a good idea to cold crash before bottling/kegging if you're just going to throw the hops in there loose.

hope that's enough to get you going into a secondary, but just know, it's not necessary for this style of beer, as you can do any dry hopping you want in the primary.

Thanks Josh, this is what the OP needed to hear. I'm with you on not doing secondary. It's just my preference. If your name isn't Josh then sorry, it doesn't seem like a typical Norwegian name.

Ok now, Original Poster... It's time to make your decision. Secondary (in another week or so) or leave it in primary. You must make a decision. NOW.

We'll be right back with more Secondary or No Secondary

 

[joshesmusica]

Thanks Josh, this is what the OP needed to hear. I'm with you on not doing secondary. It's just my preference. If your name isn't Josh then sorry, it doesn't seem like a typical Norwegian name.

Ok now, Original Poster... It's time to make your decision. Secondary (in another week or so) or leave it in primary. You must make a decision. NOW.

We'll be right back with more Secondary or No Secondary

yeah it's josh. just so happens i lived in mexico, and i like music.

but now i live in norway, land of the freshest water supply, perfect for brewing. apparently.

 

[Subdivisions]

Makes total sense now with the 'es musica'. I thought it looked Spanish but the Norway thing threw me off

 

[madscientist451]

deleted.........

 

[jethro55]

After 9 weeks of beer in my primary fermenter all I needed to do was rinse with hot water and a ligh sponge rub. Starsan to sanitize before the next batch goes in. What's so difficult about that?

Ok, the difference might be that my primary is a 6.5 gallon glass carboy. If I leave it for 2 weeks, the crust dries hard and requires some repeated scrubbing over a few days. I need to clean up and put it away on the same day - space is at a premium here. I switched to the glass carboy last year to avoid blow-offs due to hop-standing with whole hops. I could have modified my buckets, but did not want to customize. And I like watching the yeast storm.

So we "discussed" 2 "pros" for secondary here:
1. the easy clean notion, but it is pretty darn peculiar to me and not in general
2. free up the primary for the next batch

Here's a few more to discuss that I view as a pro:
a. additives to aid in clearing are not needed (whirfloc, ferm tabs, gelatin)
b. dumping in all the trub into primary is not a factor (wort straining, waiting, etc)
c. wait time to the bottle is reduced

These might be limited to bottling, exclusive of kegging. From what I read, the results might be skewed depending on that.

I have more ideas that I would consider on the pro side, but let's hear a couple of "pros" for primary only.

 

[joshesmusica]

Ok, the difference might be that my primary is a 6.5 gallon glass carboy. If I leave it for 2 weeks, the crust dries hard and requires some repeated scrubbing over a few days. I need to clean up and put it away on the same day - space is at a premium here. I switched to the glass carboy last year to avoid blow-offs due to hop-standing with whole hops. I could have modified my buckets, but did not want to customize. And I like watching the yeast storm.

So we "discussed" 2 "pros" for secondary here:
1. the easy clean notion, but it is pretty darn peculiar to me and not in general
2. free up the primary for the next batch

Here's a few more to discuss that I view as a pro:
a. additives to aid in clearing are not needed (whirfloc, ferm tabs, gelatin)
b. dumping in all the trub into primary is not a factor (wort straining, waiting, etc)
c. wait time to the bottle is reduced

These might be limited to bottling, exclusive of kegging. From what I read, the results might be skewed depending on that.

I have more ideas that I would consider on the pro side, but let's hear a couple of "pros" for primary only.

we've pretty much already stolen this thread, but i suppose it's not really the place to continue arguing this point. i'm sure there's another thread out there already about the pros and cons of each. there has to be.

but on another side note, i've seen a few comments lately that have said "deleted..." does this mean that they were deleted by the commenter or by the moderators?

 

[RM-MN]

OK, I'll give a few items that I think are pro leaving the brew in the primary, especially if it is a bucket.

a. Additives for clearing? I never use them but my beer clears anyway. Additives can make it clear faster as can cold crashing.
b. I dump everything into my bucket. With sufficient time the trub will settle out to be covered by the yeast. If I give it plenty of time, it will compact somewhat so it is easier to rack without picking any up but I usually don't wait that long as I want to see how my beer has turned out. If I do pick up a little yeast, it has already flocculated and settles out in the bottling bucket pretty quickly so it doesn't end up in the bottles, except for the last one where I tilt the bucket far over trying to get enough to completely fill it.
c. Since I typically wait 3 weeks from pitching my yeast to bottling, doing the traditional 1-2-3 schedule doesn't change much. Instead of 1 week in primary (which may not be enough) and 2 in secondary, I just combine the weeks into a single vessel.
d. Bucket primaries are cheap, cheap enough to have 2 or 3. I control my fermentation temperatures to the low end of the yeast's preferred range and that keeps the ferment slow. On the buckets that seal good, at the peak of fermentation the airlock usually bubbles only once per second. That keeps the krausen low so I don't have blowoffs. It also means that the yeast don't throw off flavors too so it's a double win.
e. Space is always an issue. My buckets can be stacked when I'm not fermenting in them. I shut down my brewing for the summer as I have too many other things to do then and 6 bucket fermenters take up the same space as 1.
f. Bucket fermenters don't let you watch the yeast but they are so much safer than a carboy. They don't break if dropped, they come with a nice handle for moving them, they have a wide opening for adding hops or reaching in for cleaning. With a bit of care in cleaning and stacking they can last for years and if one does get scratched, they are cheap to replace and can be used for other purposes even if they are scratched.

 

[joshesmusica]

You leave no room for middle ground in your argument. And like religion, that does not lead to a possible solution for "we". And I have not read in mainstream literature that one way is better than the other. I do read that it does not make a difference.

i guess there's this (scroll down to number 6):

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=15108.0

 

[jethro55]

Lots of great information there RM-MN. The differences starting to become understood for me.

In looking at it now, "pros" for secondary might sometimes look like:
1. the easy clean notion, but it is pretty darn peculiar to me and not in general
2. free up the primary for the next batch but not expensive to solve

Let me try this and see if it is seen as a difference...
3. wait time to the bottle is reduced, but it sounds like ferment temperature is the culprit... I don't control ferm temps (except to heat for late belgian cycle), so I am limited to choosing yeasts that perform well at room temperature or slightly above.

Had to smile at this "we've pretty much already stolen this thread, but i suppose it's not really the place to continue arguing this point. i'm sure there's another thread out there already about the pros and cons of each. there has to be."

Josh, there is a thread like that this that starts about every day. I'll have to read this one you found.

 

[RM-MN]

Lots of great information there RM-MN. The differences starting to become understood for me.

In looking at it now, "pros" for secondary might sometimes look like:
1. the easy clean notion, but it is pretty darn peculiar to me and not in general
2. free up the primary for the next batch but not expensive to solve

Let me try this and see if it is seen as a difference...
3. wait time to the bottle is reduced, but it sounds like ferment temperature is the culprit... I don't control ferm temps (except to heat for late belgian cycle), so I am limited to choosing yeasts that perform well at room temperature or slightly above.

Had to smile at this "we've pretty much already stolen this thread, but i suppose it's not really the place to continue arguing this point. i'm sure there's another thread out there already about the pros and cons of each. there has to be."

Josh, there is a thread like that this that starts about every day. I'll have to read this one you found.

Controlling temperature during the first few days of the fermentation isn't very hard and it opens up a whole new world to explore. From a simple tub full of water with the occasional addition of ice to a "Son of Fermentation Chiller" to an older refrigerator or freezer with a dedicated controller you have lots of choices on how to go about it. Heck, my temperature control consist of a room in my house that is only used when we have guests and in the winter it maintains 62 degrees if I keep the door closed and that usually stops the yeast from raising the beer temperature more than 2 degrees at the peak of the fermentation. Temperature control can be over in 3 to 4 days and then you can let your beer warm to room temperature with no off flavors.

 

[jethro55]

OK, I gave it a read and here is what I assess. Palmer would not rack for reasons of potentially reducing oxidation staling time. So that the shelf life is as long as possible.

Two things come into play that makes his recommendation a boogey man in my instance. Staling time is on the order of several months or much longer if refrigerated. And we consume a batch in less than a month here at my beer garden.


His recommendation, though factually based; doesn't seem to be factor for me. And this is something peculiar. Palmer is thinking that long term storage is every brewers goal.

 

[jethro55]

Controlling temperature during the first few days of the fermentation isn't very hard and it opens up a whole new world to explore. From a simple tub full of water with the occasional addition of ice to a "Son of Fermentation Chiller" to an older refrigerator or freezer with a dedicated controller you have lots of choices on how to go about it. Heck, my temperature control consist of a room in my house that is only used when we have guests and in the winter it maintains 62 degrees if I keep the door closed and that usually stops the yeast from raising the beer temperature more than 2 degrees at the peak of the fermentation. Temperature control can be over in 3 to 4 days and then you can let your beer warm to room temperature with no off flavors.

I do think sometimes about going to that level. I have similar room but it is too far from the staging room (dining room) for me to make it regular. At this point, off flavors are not a problem. I might need to cause some off-flavors though so that I can have a few more for myself.

 

[jethro55]

So I'm not quite new here but I've been away for a while. And apparently my search capabilities are infantile... Have an IPA that has been fermenting for a week steadily. There are still a few bubbles on the top but I'm wondering can I transfer it to a secondary now and leave it for another week until it stabilizes? Thanks...

The answer is yes.
Is it necessary to secondary - no
Is it necessary to skip it - no
Is one better than the other - no, it depends on your constraints, preferences and habits.

 

[Subdivisions]

but on another side note, i've seen a few comments lately that have said "deleted..." does this mean that they were deleted by the commenter or by the moderators?

It's deleted by the original poster. If you make a post in the wrong thread or don't really like what you posted you can't delete the post so you just edit it and put 'deleted'

 

[Andyoesq]

So I jump ship in Hong Kong and I make my way over to Tibet, and I get on as a looper at a course over in the Himalayas. A looper, you know, a caddy, a looper, a jock. So, I tell them I'm a pro jock, and who do you think they give me? The Dalai Lama, himself. Twelfth son of the Lama. The flowing robes, the grace, bald... striking. So, I'm on the first tee with him. I give him the driver. He hauls off and whacks one - big hitter, the Lama - long, into a ten-thousand foot crevasse, right at the base of this glacier. Do you know what the Lama says? Gunga galunga... gunga, gunga-lagunga. So we finish the eighteenth and he's gonna stiff me. And I say, "Hey, Lama, hey, how about a little something, you know, for the effort, you know." And he says, "Oh, uh, there won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will learn whether as an amateur brewer you should use a second fermenter or not." So I got that goin' for me, which is nice.

 

[bourkeco]

I'm just a n00b myself, but couldn't a pro also be to free up that 6-gallon fermenter for your next batch? If you wanted to get another batch going but you didn't want to wait until that initial batch was ready to bottle... you would get it over into your 5-gallon fermenter with less head space to continue doing its thang while you clean up that 6-gallon fermenter and get another batch going.

For the moment, I plan on spacing my brew days apart to where bottling of an existing batch happens before (but on the same day of) brewing my next batch. But if I get a little froggy and want to jump ahead, I could see where that secondary could come in handy if for nothing other than to free up the primary for my next batch.

And the winner is......^^^^^^^^^^^

I'm not completely new here like I said but geez I leave the room for three days and look what happens. You guys are seriously cracking me up. So I didn't secondary last weekend because it was still fermenting to strongly The only reason I was putting it into a secondary was to free up the 6 1/2 gallon carboy. And I've racked plenty of beers and can rack just fine.... But I will reiterate something that I've read a lot of this thread this is a hobby and it should be fun.... Thanks for all of the input sorry I wasn't here all along the whole conversation....

 

[bourkeco]

And just so you know I didn't delete anything but I believe the thread was moved.....