Second batch, out the drain. WTF!?!

[MrTux]

So my previous batch of my favorite macinac red turned out sour and undrinkable. I have not changed my process and have had great success with the brew. So, I just thought maybe I got something infected or something was missed in cleaning. I really didn't think anything of it.
So, brewing on. I purchased a clone of which I had been drinking the real thing for a couple of months. Everything looked good. Times were perfect. Fermentation started within 18 hours. Smelled good in my fermentation room (spare bathroom with a heater set at 70*). Racked into my secondary (carboy). Set up the keg....and what the hell. Soured and undrinkable.
Can someone point me in the general area to look. I use a strict process and have changed nothing. My water is distilled which I buy in 2.5 gallon jugs. I only use that water. Yeast is white labs. I use grain bags which I sterilize and sanitize. I just don't know where to go from here. And spending $50 a shot for my extract ingredients is not in the cards anymore.

 

[Brettomomyces]

An infection like this is going to be from something on the cold side of your brewing, everything up to the boil is getting heat pasteurized by the boil. Here are some places to look:

Siphon hose and racking cane: if they're kinda old, replace them. hose is cheap and can harbor bacteria

The keg. You should take the posts off and clean everywhere. Replace the O-rings too, just get a full set from your LHBS. Be sure to clean inside the liquid out post really well, I reccomend a long skinny brush. Your LHBS should have those too

Secondary: Many homebrewers, myself included, don't feel like a secondary is worth the effort/risk. This is a step you could potentially be skipping, which eliminates one more transfer and the extra oxidation and risk of infection.

 

[Conan]

Can you describe the sour taste? Is it like a sour beer?
Have you had batches that were not sour and were good? How many batches have you made?
I agree with Brett on keg cleaning, though my posts haven't been removed in ~ a year, with no infections.
What do you use to sanitize? Your sani water can be from the tap. How do you sanitize your grain bags? How about the secondary?
Also as Brett said, skip the secondary. If you need to dry hop or use a spice addition just do it in the keg. Alcohol and anoxia are detrimental to microorganism proliferation...use that to your advantage.

Also, if you can control fermentation temp to 70F consider setting it to ~62 for most ales. Ferm temps in the fermenter are typically 5F higher than ambient, and 75F can throw some serious off flavors with many yeasts. Basically the way, which strain did you use? Maybe the souring you perceive is a combination of yeast off flavors. Kyle

 

[MrTux]

Bret, thanks. Just stopped in and bought all new hose. The cane is fairly new. No scratches or the like. Good idea on the keg rubber. Ill stop by Monday and pick those up.
As for the secondary, I've always used the two step process since I've started dry hopping.. this is the first time I've had issues.
Conan, thetaste is like sour beer with a definite metallic "bitter" taste. This was my 35th batch and except for this and last one, ive never had issues. I use a mild soap and water with a soft sponge and sanitize with my LHBS one step cleaner. I will do a serious re-eval of my cleaning and sanitizing. Seems to be the concensus here. Thanks all!

 

[jerryboy]

2 sequential batches in the same fermenter? I'd look at cleaning and/or replacing them?

 

[MrTux]

2 sequential batches in the same fermenter? I'd look at cleaning and/or replacing them?

Both are glass 6 gallon carboys

 

[RM-MN]

Both are glass 6 gallon carboys

You mean you ferment in a 6 gallon carboy and secondary in the other? If so, that's your problem. You need to use a smaller carboy for secondary so the beer fills it clear up into the neck.

First is the worst suggestion if you are using a 6 gallon carboy for secondary. Ready??? Break that sucker. Forget you ever had one and keep your beer in the primary until it is ready to bottle.

Second suggestion is to make two batches and fill both carboys. Now you won't have an empty one to secondary in. No secondary, no infections unless you are really sloppy about sanitizing the primary.

 

[MrTux]

:cross: ok.
I should also mention I fill both boys up with co2 before I fill them with my wort/beer. My expert said to avoid such a large volume of oxygen and use a hose to fill from the bottom and put some gas in there before I pour.
I do like the suggestion. I'll keep this all in mind. I plan on a brew sometime later this week. I'll keep the thread up to date. Thanks again all.

 

[RM-MN]

I apologize. I was a bit harsh but the pictures of infections always seem to show beers in secondary with a lot of head space and for most beers, secondary is not needed.

Last winter I managed to get a wild yeast in the air in my house and it would infect the batch as soon as I opened the fermenter(most times, once it took a couple times of getting samples before it got in). While my infection didn't sour the beer, it did dry it out a lot, sometimes taking my beer from the expected FG of 1.015 to 1.002 or less. You may such a beast in your house air only yours makes the beer sour. My solution was to wait until summer and open all the windows for several days to exchange the air in the house with cleaner outside air. It seems to have worked. It may or may not be your problem but by your description you are doing proper sanitation and by purging your carboy with CO2 you should have eliminated any aerobic bacteria which then leaves only something that can function in a low pH solution with alcohol, meaning a yeast. Best of luck getting rid of it. I only had about 6 batches infected and they were all drinkable, just not as malty as I perfer.

 

[kombat]

Fermenting at an ambient of 70° F is too hot. Are you sure it's not fusels you're tasting?

 

[beergolf]

Fermenting at an ambient of 70° F is too hot. Are you sure it's not fusels you're tasting?

kobat beat me to it. That is my guess also. Is it sour or solvent like? Fermenting hot can create some unpleasant flavors. If the room is at 70 the brew can be as much as 10 degrees higher.

What yeast did you use?

 

[kh54s10]

I also agree that 70 degrees is too warm. Fusel alcohol can give a sour or hot alcohol taste. I ferment most my ales at 64 degrees in my fermentation chamber. I put the probe on the side of my Better Bottles insulated from ambient with a folded up washcloth.

The other thing I suggest it to use the One Step for cleaning only. Get some Starsan or Iodaphor for sanitizing.

 

[ballsy]

Fully agree with quitting the secondary. Brew temp less likely, 70 is not ideal temperature but definitely not overly high to the point of ruining a batch like the 0P states.

 

[Foosier]

dupe.

 

[Foosier]

Double bump on the sanitizer. One step is a cleaner only and will not sanitize, Get starsan or iodophor as indicated.

 

[masonsjax]

StarSan is your friend. Cover everything that gets near your beer after the boil with foamy StarSan and do not rinse it off. It is essentially phosphoric acid and the yeast love it and will eat it up. Don't fear the foam! If your problems stem from bacterial or wild yeast infection, proper sanitization practices could be your answer.

70F ambient means the beer at full vigorous fermentation can peak out at 80F or above! Certainly hot enough to ruin the beer, at least for people with a palette sensitive to solvent. Make a swamp cooler, find a cool corner or an unheated room if you don't have a fridge you can ferment in. This is one of the major variables that make the difference between barely drinkable and world class beer.

 

[MrTux]

So I noticed a few of you think my fermentation room is the problem. Let me describe it and then let's go from there. It's my third bathroom for when family/friends come over. It's a 10x10 room with a porcelain King and a tub. Double sink and room for hamper and chair. Now during the winter, the wife and I prefer the house around a temp of 62 or 64. When we light the fireplace we turn down the temp on the furnace. So what I was doing was putting my carboy on top of the sink with a towel underneath, and a portable heater set on 70* and oscillating. I could maintain a constant temp without f'n up the house.
Now that being said, should my temps be lower? I have mostly used white labs 001 yeast. Most of my beers call for that. I tend for the Reds or heavier Amber beers. And 001 always fit the bill. Now, I've only had this issue with the last two brews. I have a total of 64 brews under my belt and have not had issues.
My process has not changed since my first red which was pretty damn good and keep me moving forward.
Thanks again for everyone's help. Such an awesome place to get info to hit you over the head with. :rockin:

 

[ong]

Most ale yeast will do great in the low 60s. That's generally a better temp range than 70-ish.

 

[joshesmusica]

the one step cleaner could be the culprit. but you're saying with every single brew you've fermented at ambient 70? what are the sizes of all these brews? bigger beers will typically create higher temps if it's the same yeast strain on every brew.
i've had one beer get fusel-infected. it's definitely that hot flavor they mention, but i will also say it's got that sour-metallic flavor you mentioned on top of it. not pleasant at all.
also you've brewed nearly 30 batches since your post on the first page and your last post on this page?

 

[kombat]

Mystery solved, fermenting way too hot.

 

[madscientist451]

I'll agree that you should switch to star san and stop using the one step.
Also get some PBW for cleaning. Clean with the PBW, sanitize with the star san. Maybe that will take care of the problem.
The OP reported that he has used the 70 degree fermentation many times, so I don't think that is the problem, unless the temp, control on the heater has gone out. Put a thermometer in your fermentation room to check your temperature.
The OP said he has made many batches. Could re-use of the yeast cause the sour metallic taste? If you've reused the yeast several times, perhaps try a fresh pitch.

 

[mfgann]

Had my first batch go sour on me. This sour was a sort of Apple cider vinager taste, and very strong, you basically could not taste the beer at all.

I had used diluted bleach to sanitize while waiting on star san to come in, then used it to thoroughly coat everything for the next batch. Be sure that anything your cooled wort touches is WET with the star san. It keeps things sanitary while we, but as soon as there is a dry surface it can be a point of infection.

Second batch turned out fantastic. The house temp was set at 71, and in the room it was in I saw it hang around 68-69.

I recommend the star san, and I would also recommend soaking everything plastic in diluted bleach to try and kill anything hiding in a piece of gear. Just be sure to rinse it thoroughly afterward.

Good luck

 

[72hw]

Had my first batch go sour on me. This sour was a sort of Apple cider vinager taste, and very strong, you basically could not taste the beer at all.

I had this exact thing happen recently, but instead of bleaching everything (which could cause other problems) I dumped my vinyl tubing and plastic racking cane. Have switched over to silicone tubing and a stainless cane - the only other thing I may need to swap out now is the plastic Better Bottle fermentor that held the compromised batch.

As for the OP's fementing temps, if there have been over 60 batches done this way with satisfactory results, how can people be so quick to jump on that as the cause? Obviously cooler is better, but I believe the problem to be with sanitation - plastic wears out, becomes scratched, threads in kegs harbor nasties, etc.

And let's not forget the batch was fermented in a bathroom... Any thoughts there?

 

[1975brewer]

If you have been fermenting at 70 all along & not had a problem I would think we can eliminate that. I do think you are wasting money on electric though. If the house is 64 go with it I think you will end with a better beer. About 2.5 to 3 years ago I had 2 sour batches in a row. After some research through the forum I decided it was mi primary fermenter. At the time I had not started using Starsan yet I had only used 1-Step & assumed it was not getting the job done. I bleached my ale pails with 1/4 cup in a full bucket soaked over night. After rinsing & drying the problem was gone. Now before the comments about the bleach start it was a 1 time remedy before I new about Starsan.

 

[Black Island Brewer]

also you've brewed nearly 30 batches since your post on the first page and your last post on this page?

His thread title might be confusing - it's his second batch to turn sour, not his second batch ever.

OP, if your fermentation temps have worked for you this far and were the same on all your batches, your problem is likely not your fermentation temperature.

If you have been doing a secondary in a large fermentor, and have not had problems, your problem is likely not doing a secondary, nor having too much head space.

To have two consecutive batches go sour, and with as many brew as you've done, I'm going to assume you know what sour beer tastes like, you likely need to be looking at just where the sour is coming from. How did it taste after your primary? After your secondary? It sounds like it wasn't until it went into the keg that it got sour.

Rip that keg apart, replace all the rubbers, brush out the outlets and the tubes, and stop using One Step as a sanitizer. Iodophor or Star San (I prefer star san) are both great no-rinse options.

Brew on!

 

[joshesmusica]

His thread title might be confusing - it's his second batch to turn sour, not his second batch ever.

my point was that the first time he said he's done 35 batches. the next post he said he's done 64. so really i was just wondering if it's like the fish i caught last week.

 

[MrTux]

That was my fat fingers and apple iOS autocorrect function. This was my 35th batch that started to sour. I have replaced all the rubber in my keg. Changed my tubing and will work with star San on my next batch. I am on hold for at least a couple of weeks as a new business adventure has popped its head up and I will be traveling extensively. Keep the suggestions coming. It's a never ending teachable cycle whe brewing! Thanks again, all.

 

[ballsy]

ambient of 68 really depends on yeast strain as to whether "too hot" like many are claiming. Prior to swamp bucket, I did ambient 70 with US05 and never had issue of fusels....though I will say adding a swamp bucket is the cheapest and easiest way of eliminating that variable OP.