Searching for WLP515 Antwerp Ale Substitute

[domdom]

I'm searching for suggestions on a replacement for White Labs Antwerp Ale (WLP515). It was previously a seasonal yeast but now it's part of the yeast bank program so not sure when i'll ever get a chance to get it again and only have 2 vials left . I use it to make one of my all time favorite beers, a belgian amber based on palm speciale. especially interested in this since i recently won a homebrew competition using this ale strain.

write up from white lab site: "Clean, almost lager like Belgian type ale yeast. Good for Belgian type pales ales and amber ales, or with blends to combine with other Belgian type yeast strains. Biscuity, ale like aroma present. Hop flavors and bitterness are accentuated. Slight sulfur will be produced during fermentation, which can give the yeast a lager-like flavor profile."

My own tasting notes are that it is a clean, crisp ale yeast, not very 'belgian-y' in the typical sense (esters and phenols) and flavors are more based on other ingredients and not just the yeast. it really showcases the malt and toasty/bready flavors, but also lets the hops back every thing up. I usually ferment it on the colder end and has some sulfur smell when fermenting. Takes a couples weeks after full carbonation to condition but turns out great.

I tried subbing Wyeast 3522 Belgian Ardennes once but it has too much belgian character. thought about nottingham yest but worried it won't push those characteristics i'm looking and i sometimes get a vague 'twang' from it. next best thing i could think of was possibly an alt ale yeast but don't have any experience using this type of yeast.

any help is greatly appreciated.

 

[ba-brewer]

WLP029 might be OK in a Belgian pale, works fast, drops pretty clear and lets the grain and hops come through. Maybe even try W-34/70 it works fine at ale temps and would give it that lager flavor. SF lager or California lager yeast might be OK too.

I like the wyeast belgian schelde ale yeast 3655-pc, but it has not been released the last two years. I think it is even cleaner than WLP515 and does not have the sulfur taste.

 

[domdom]

thanks for the info. I also found out northern brewer stocks this which looks to be the same yeast.
http://www.omegayeast.com/portfolio/belgian-ale-dk/

 

[ba-brewer]

Never tried their yeast, sort of funny how they reference the white labs and wyeast products in the descriptions.

If you try it I would be curious to hear if it turns out OK.

 

[domdom]

Never tried their yeast, sort of funny how they reference the white labs and wyeast products in the descriptions.

If you try it I would be curious to hear if it turns out OK.

i've used it several times before. very nice ale yeast and is key to one of my favorite beers. not stereotypically belgian but nice.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I'm searching for suggestions on a replacement for White Labs Antwerp Ale (WLP515). It was previously a seasonal yeast but now it's part of the yeast bank program so not sure when i'll ever get a chance to get it again and only have 2 vials left . I use it to make one of my all time favorite beers, a belgian amber based on palm speciale. especially interested in this since i recently won a homebrew competition using this ale strain.

I know this is a bit late but for future reference - WLP515 appears to be very closely related, genetically and phenotypically, to WLP051 California V so that or even dry BRY-97 would work. It's pretty closely related to the other US yeasts like Chico/WLP001/1056/US-05, presumably it's a cousin of the ancestors of that whole class of "clean" yeasts. WLP030 Thames Valley is another relative which might work, although it's not as good a match as WLP051.

WLP515 seems to come out every September or so.

Or just get a bottle of de Koninck...

 

[slickfish]

Yep. Belgian ale dk is the same yeast.

 

[ba-brewer]

I only used WLP051 California V once but once was enough for me. It gave off a very strong sulfur smell while fermenting.

 

[couchsending]

Wlp051 is Wyeast 1272 right?

Have you tried 510? It definitely produces some sulfur and is on the low end of phenol production. I believe this is Orval yeast. Also the yeast Alchemist uses for their Belgian beers.

 

[secondbase]

I would reach for wlp510. It's among the cleanest belgian yeasts out there. A kolsch yeast could be nice too.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I would reach for wlp510. It's among the cleanest belgian yeasts out there. A kolsch yeast could be nice too.

We have full DNA sequences now - it's not a question of what's "nice", we can now see that WLP515 and WLP051 are near-siblings, you don't have have to compromise by using unrelated yeasts that happen to come from the same area.

The big hit of sulphur is also very characteristic of WLP515.

 

[ba-brewer]

Recently made a Belgian pale ale with wlp515 and did not notice much if any sulfur smell. In all fairness to WLP051 I did only use it once and did not have any sulfur aroma in the finished product.

My last use of WLP515 came from the last production and it fermented out very clean, I know it is suppose to a be fairly clean yeast but I do recall getting some "Belgian" in the past.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I think it's an interesting bit of psychology, do people perceive "Belgium" in WLP515 because of the label, or because it's actually there? And vice versa, do they not look for "Belgium" in WLP051 because they think it shouldn't be there? People do report a bit of "Belgium" once they take WLP515 over 70F, but it would be interesting to do a blind side-by-side

 

[ba-brewer]

I think it's an interesting bit of psychology, do people perceive "Belgium" in WLP515 because of the label, or because it's actually there? And vice versa, do they not look for "Belgium" in WLP051 because they think it shouldn't be there? People do report a bit of "Belgium" once they take WLP515 over 70F, but it would be interesting to do a blind side-by-side

Power of suggestion does wonders. Do you have any information on how Wyeast 3655 Belgian Schelde Ale fits from a DNA point of view?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Do you have any information on how Wyeast 3655 Belgian Schelde Ale fits from a DNA point of view?

Sadly not - the big genome study was sponsored by White Labs, although they did the Wyeast Chico just for kicks and to prove their hunch that it was different to WLP001. It looks like one of the companies got their Chico from the Siebel yeastbank and the other got it from Sierra Nevada after many generations of evolution, the differences are visible in the DNA and in the phenotype.

It's possible that we're seeing something similar with the de Koninck yeast - the suggestion upthread that 3655 is less sulphurous chimes with something bierhaus said over on the thread I set up to discuss the similarities with the US yeasts over here. He's brewed with a version from the Leuven yeastbank and found it less sulphurous and more complex.

 

[Colin H]

Yep. Belgian ale dk is the same yeast.

Not sure how many read this thread at this point, but omega's oyl-049 is not de koninck. Two employees have confirmed with me that it's not. Similar-ish, but not it.

 

[dmtaylor]

The latest genomic research suggests that WLP515 is in fact a pastorianus ("lager"!) strain that is somewhat related to WLP051, WLP001 & 1056, but probably not a super close relationship with the latter Chico strains since these are cerevisiae. There might be no real great equivalent for WLP515. A commercial lager strain might be interesting to experiment with. The San Fran/California Lager strains might work reasonably well. And I know S-189 and Diamond fermented warm still come out clean and lager-like even in upper 60s F. Or, WLP001/1056 fermented cool might be good too. I would steer clear of US-05, which is quite different from its Chico origins and generates unusual peachy esters when fermented cool, which I don't believe the others are known to do. Lots of ideas to experiment with.

Sorry, I don't follow Omega much (not yet). I've no comment on that one.

For my summation of genomic testing and postulated "equivalents, for most intents & purposes", you might find this of interest:

YEAST MASTER Perma-Living

 

[Colin H]

The latest genomic research suggests that WLP515 is in fact a pastorianus ("lager"!) strain that is somewhat related to WLP051, WLP001 & 1056, but probably not a super close relationship with the latter Chico strains since these are cerevisiae. There might be no real great equivalent for WLP515. A commercial lager strain might be interesting to experiment with. The San Fran/California Lager strains might work reasonably well. And I know S-189 and Diamond fermented warm still come out clean and lager-like even in upper 60s F. Or, WLP001/1056 fermented cool might be good too. I would steer clear of US-05, which is quite different from its Chico origins and generates unusual peachy esters when fermented cool, which I don't believe the others are known to do. Lots of ideas to experiment with.

Sorry, I don't follow Omega much (not yet). I've no comment on that one.

For my summation of genomic testing and postulated "equivalents, for most intents & purposes", you might find this of interest:

YEAST MASTER Perma-Living

I'm about ready to just ferment a Taras clone with Augustiner yeast a little warm honestly.