Scorching with Avantco IC3500 - Theories?

[tyhoward]

A quick background, I've been brewing for about two years. I've done about 15 extract batches in that time on my outdoor propane burner. For the most part all batches were successful.

In January I began induction brewing with the Avantco IC3500 and my Concord E-Series kettle. My first two batches were extract. Everything went fine. I then decided to explore BIAB brewing with Lowe's paint strainer bags (2x).

My first BIAB recipe was supposed to be a blue moon clone per SWMBO's request. I was following a recipe I found on HBT. 15 minutes into the boil I smelled an off smell. Upon transferring the wort I realized it was horribly scorched (see first photo). After discussing it with a few people in a local brewing group I decided the scorch most likely occurred when I "goosed" the induction burner during the mash (at least that is my theory).

After an hour of seriously scrubbing the pot with steel wool I was ready to retry this recipe. Interesting was that the scorching had seemed to have permanently deformed the kettle (see second photo). The “ring” which is visible is like a bubble which can be pushed up and down with little effort.
In any case I started with Batch 2, this time I was careful not to heat the kettle with the grain and grain bag in place. Everything seemed to be going well until around the 15 min mark where I suspect my addition of corn starch (yes that's what the recipe called for) gelatinized and I suspect caused scorching (again my best guess).

This scorch was not as severe as with batch 1 and after 30 minutes of steel wool the pot appears burn free. Determined to get it right I brewed the same recipe this Saturday. I did not run the burner during the Mash and I did not use corn starch (suspected culprits for ruining batch #1 and #2). Although 90% improved I still found two very small (dime sized) scorch marks on the pot when I transferred the wort.

So at this point I’m seriously considering buying a new kettle thinking that the initial scorch of batch #1 was so severe that it has left the kettle unusable (at least for induction brewing). Before I commit to another kettle, I was hoping someone might chime in as to whether they think this is most likely the issue.

Is there something else I am doing wrong? Someone mentioned to me that running the burner at 3500 watts is excessive, but I was able to run the burner at this setting doing extract so I don’t completely understand how that would now be an issue with BIAB (similar wort density from the recipes).

Image 1 - Severe Burn
https://goo.gl/photos/1GL6axw6UoPJ99AH8

Image 2 - Kettle Damaged
https://goo.gl/photos/Qo7kn1jt8ocguo5T7

 

[jabba11]

sure your not grinding so fine as there are particles falling to the bottom? I have an electric system and when I do wheats you have to be really careful about there being super fine particles on the element which will cause it too build up and scorch. Turn up the heat high and too long and it will scorch if the particles are there. With normal two row this isn't a problem with my system just wheats and when you have things like flaked oats etc.

 

[tyhoward]

That's an interesting idea. I really don't know to be honest. My LHBS has an electric grinder. I did double grind it but I have no idea what they are setting the gap at.

I'll single grind in the future. Would the grind become less of an issue with a nicer bag? Is there anyway to remove the smaller particles from the grind? Something like dunk it in a secondary pot of water before putting it in the pot to mash?

 

[jabba11]

I don't use a bag as I have a malt pipe. it might help some but then you may have some flow issues although probably noit as amuch as I have with the pipe since fluid can escape anywhere from a bag. Ive never heard too much issue with BIAB like you are describing honestly. We do have this issue with our electric systems from Colorado brewing though and Ill assume others that are similar. You can also try a sach rest at 120 I think it is for like 20 mins then move to your mash temp they claim that helps although Ive had mixed results doing that.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Paint strainer bags are very coarse weave, too coarse imho and will put more fines in your kettle.

If you insist on using max heat, and "dirty" wort, I would suggest stirring while coming to a boil to avoid scorching.

Tri ply kettle? Might help as well.

Your extract brews were a much cleaner wort than your paint strainer biab brews. I think the combination of heavy sediment, not stirring and intense heat have created an atypical condition.

 

[tyhoward]

Thanks for the input. I tried to stir more during my last brew and I did see less scorching, but still some present. I was trying to move to BIAB with as little cost as possible, but I am over scrubbing scorched pots. I think my plan is three fold:

1. Single grind grain.
2. Move to a higher quality bag
3. Move to a triply kettle.

Do you think I should also avoid full heat (3500W)? This is the one that is hard for me to commit to because it seems it would lengthen my brew day.

 

[BrunDog]

Is the scorching happening during the mash (are you heating then)? If so you need to recirculate with a pump.

 

[tmendick]

1. Single grind grain.
2. Move to a higher quality bag
3. Move to a triply kettle.

Do you think I should also avoid full heat (3500W)?

1. Unnecessary to change
2. Yes - talk to wilser
3. If you want to, go for it. It will slow down the ramp times a bit though.

Bonus question - I always use 3500 to ramp and about 2700 or 2900 for boil, without issue

 

[tyhoward]

Thanks for the continuing input.

Is the scorching happening during the mash (are you heating then)? If so you need to recirculate with a pump.

I have not been heating during mash. I actually take it off the burner and add the bags and grain. I leave it off for the full hour removing the grain bag before putting it back on the burner.

 

[tyhoward]

Sorry for two posts. Working from my phone.

3. If you want to, go for it. It will slow down the ramp times a bit though.

I guess triply may not be necessary, but I am concerned to continue using my Concord E Series kettle. The bottom is warped and I suspect this will result it an even more concentrated heat generation.

For kettles I was considering either Concord triply or NB Tall Boy. A lot of induction folks seem to use Bayou kettles, but I am reading mixed reviews.

 

[tmendick]

I would recommend looking into Bru-gear, they are selling their current stock for 50% off. Their 10 Gallon Pot would be $87 plus shipping

 

[golfindia]

That's either a gigantic kettle, or a shockingly small heating area. If the latter, I'd return the burner and get something different. Applying 3500w to that small of an area is definitely going to scorch stuff.

 

[tyhoward]

That's either a gigantic kettle, or a shockingly small heating area. If the latter, I'd return the burner and get something different. Applying 3500w to that small of an area is definitely going to scorch stuff.

It's the Avantco IC3500 burner with a 10 gallon kettle. From what I've read, quite a few people on here use it successfully despite the ~6" heating coil.

 

[BrunDog]

The issue probably is the small surface area then. The triply would probably help disperse the heat.

 

[tyhoward]

I would recommend looking into Bru-gear, they are selling their current stock for 50% off. Their 10 Gallon Pot would be $87 plus shipping

That is hard to pass up at 50% off. So far I've done all my brewing with a simple kettle (no valves). I recognize having a valve opens up some additional possibilities and I could probably be sold on the benefits, but I can't help but feel like it goes against my minimalist brewing approach.

 

[jrstephens65]

Thanks for the input. I tried to stir more during my last brew and I did see less scorching, but still some present. I was trying to move to BIAB with as little cost as possible, but I am over scrubbing scorched pots. I think my plan is three fold:

1. Single grind grain.
2. Move to a higher quality bag
3. Move to a triply kettle.

Do you think I should also avoid full heat (3500W)? This is the one that is hard for me to commit to because it seems it would lengthen my brew day.

I do BIAB with a 10gal Spike kettle, Wilser bag, and a Adcraft 3000 watt induction plate. I also double crush my grain at my LHBS. I have never gotten any scorching like what you are seeing. I do get a little grayish residue on the bottom of the kettle where the heat ring is but it wipes off easily during cleaning.

Things I think could be causing your issue is kettle and bag. Order a bag from Wilser or a Brew in a bag. I have both and far prefer the Wilser. I would also recommend stirring gently when ramping to boil and once it gets to a boil reduce your heat input till you get a gentle boil.

I am not familiar with the kettle you are using but I can recommend a tri-ply kettle as that is what I use and have no scorching issues.

Good Luck!

 

[csurowiec]

I use the same induction burner with a SS Brewtech 10g kettle and a Wilser bag. I never get any scorching. I think your problem is the combination of a coarse weave bag and a thin bottom pot. My suggestion would be to upgrade the kettle, bag, or both. Next suggestion if new gear isn't in the budget, would be to stir like hell when applying heat and hope for the best.

 

[TorMag]

I agree. I have a concord kettle, pretty flimsy bottom. I now use a Wilser bag, Bayou Classic Tri-ply kettle and the 3500 Advanco burner, no scorching problems.

I am really happy with the Bayou kettle. This is the one I use. http://amzn.to/2qgjnep

 

[tmendick]

That is hard to pass up at 50% off. So far I've done all my brewing with a simple kettle (no valves). I recognize having a valve opens up some additional possibilities and I could probably be sold on the benefits, but I can't help but feel like it goes against my minimalist brewing approach.

It's a slippery slope toward full automation and blinging out the system.

 

[wilserbrewer]

I agree. I have a concord kettle, pretty flimsy bottom. I now use a Wilser bag, Bayou Classic Tri-ply kettle and the 3500 Advanco burner, no scorching problems.

I am really happy with the Bayou kettle. This is the one I use. http://amzn.to/2qgjnep

It gets a little confusing b/w the concord kettles and bayou classic.

Afaik, the standard concord kettle is a little thicker than the b/c, and the economy concord kettle is a little thinner.

I believe the economy concord is only 10-15 bucks cheaper, than the standard concord and is considerably thinner. Those with the standard concord claim them to be fairly heavy duty. 1.0 mm thick I believe.

And, if that's not confusing enough, concord also has a heavy duty clad bottom kettle that is more $$$.

 

[BrunDog]

It's a slippery slope toward full automation and blinging out the system.

Oh, but what a fun ride it is down that slope!!!

 

[augiedoggy]

That is hard to pass up at 50% off. So far I've done all my brewing with a simple kettle (no valves). I recognize having a valve opens up some additional possibilities and I could probably be sold on the benefits, but I can't help but feel like it goes against my minimalist brewing approach.

Next thing you know youll be wanting to trade the mule in for one of those pick up truck things!

 

[augiedoggy]

It gets a little confusing b/w the concord kettles and bayou classic.

Afaik, the standard concord kettle is a little thicker than the b/c, and the economy concord kettle is a little thinner.

I believe the economy concord is only 10-15 bucks cheaper, than the standard concord and is considerably thinner. Those with the standard concord claim them to be fairly heavy duty. 1.0 mm thick I believe.

And, if that's not confusing enough, concord also has a heavy duty clad bottom kettle that is more $$$.

I have both and agree the concord is thicker and less likely to ding up. but the dimensions of the concords are usually wider and shorter as they get bigger than most of the other kettles used in the home brewing market giving them slight disadvantages in that regard. There are other differences too like the steel thats used.

with the induction bottom I would think the triclad would be a no brainer but neither the concord or the BC kettles are 304 grade stainless so the induction effect does work with the non tri clad bottom kettles. Concord used jindal stainlass mixture from india (which is closer to the 201grade that chapman and many kitchenware manufacturers use) and Bayou it seems just lies and claims theres is 304 stainless but true 304 grade wont work well with magnetic induction so...

the triclad bottom is going to add a buffer and act kind of like using an ULWD element vs high watt density in that regard which will help against scorching.

 

[tyhoward]

I use the same induction burner with a SS Brewtech 10g kettle and a Wilser bag. I never get any scorching. I think your problem is the combination of a coarse weave bag and a thin bottom pot. My suggestion would be to upgrade the kettle, bag, or both. Next suggestion if new gear isn't in the budget, would be to stir like hell when applying heat and hope for the best.

Have you ever timed your tap to mash temp and mash out to boil temp? Reading around it looks guys using the BC kettles get around 2-2.5* / min with around 6.5 gallons and the 3500w burner. Some suggest tri bottom kettles would be slower, but I haven't seen any numbers to confirm that.

 

[tyhoward]

I would recommend looking into Bru-gear, they are selling their current stock for 50% off. Their 10 Gallon Pot would be $87 plus shipping

Was seriously considering this option. Went to calculate shipping, $55, ouch!

 

[timcook]

I use the same Advantco with a Tallboy kettle (before Northern Brewer was bought out). I have never had scortching, even on the highest setting. Investing in a tri-ply kettle was worth the investment.