School me on Brut/Gluco additions

[DVCNick]

To make a long story short... my girlfriend likes to drink low cal/low carb type stuff, and so to keep her on board with the home brewing, I'd like to make something that she would like. (She likes the taste and experience of full body beer, just doesn't do much of it because of the calories). With a single tap kegerator, whatever it is, I'll have to be able to at least tolerate it as well.

Of the stuff she's been drinking lately, my favorite is Oskar Blues One-y. "100 calorie hazy IPA". The way I'd describe it is a Brut NEIPA. Very dry, but with the tropical hop flavors.

Looking at Brut kit recipes, as I expected they all have the enzyme additions to completely dry them out to 1.000. Most of them seem to be in the 7+ percent alcohol range. So to keep the calories down and go for something similar to the One-y in the 4% range, I'm thinking of taking one of those recipes, and just scaling back the grain bill and bittering hops until it is 4% abv.

So that brings me to my question. These kits all have 10+$ worth of just liquid enzyme additions. Some are added in the boil, some in the fermenter early, some in the fermenter late, with no explanation of why.

Can someone explain what these different enzyme additions are doing, and why they are timed differently?

What I'd like to do is just use the Gluco crystals/powder since it is much cheaper than the liquid stuff, and add it whenever appropriate (I don't care when, but it seems opinions vary).

Thoughts on this plan? Thoughts on timing of these enzyme additions?
Thanks

 

[Ralphie0523]

I have used both liquid and dry enzymes in mash, fermentor, and both mash and fermentor. The schools of thought I have heard of are as follows:

In the mash, the enzyme is activated to peak activity through pH and temperature. The enzymatic action occurs and creates more fermentable sugars. The boil denatures the enzyme and doesn’t carry over in the pitched yeast. This is ideal if you are reusing yeast or want to have more control over how much Enzymatic action occurs.

In the fermentor, the rate of reaction is slower, but the residence time of the enzyme compensates for this. The yeast should not be repitched unless the same highly attenuated beer is desired. This is because there is no denature of the enzyme in this scenario. Adding early gives more time to break down sugars, adding later gives a chance to harvest yeast.

I am not sure about adding in the boil, if it is an enzyme those are not typically capable of surviving boiling temps very long.

My personal experience is that the final gravity is lower when there are fermentor additions, typically by 5-7 points. Liquid enzyme has given more consistent results than powdered enzyme but both are capable of delivering a sub 1.000 beer.

My take is that it is another lever in the process and should be treated as such. My preference is for a sub 1.000 Brüt beer style and therefore I typically put enzyme in the fermentor at pitch and let it ride for 10-12 days.

Hopefully this helps.

 

[DVCNick]

It does thanks. I meant to say mash rather than boil above. Good catch. I harvest my yeast off the starter rather than the bottom of the fermenter so that's not a problem. Sounds like a single addition at the beginning of fermentation would work well for my purposes is for now.

 

[tjmac5071]

Everything said above is spot on so nothing to add there (other than liquid being more consistent, which I have not found but do not question anothers' experience). I'll add another thought just because I think this style does better in the 6.5 - 7 range especially when sun 1.00. You can brew a normal Brut in the 6-7 range and mix with carbonated water at serving for her...best of both worlds. I'll frequently pour 50% hoppy beer in the 5-6% range and 50% carbonated water for a nice light refreshing drink

 

[isomerization]

https://www.homebrewing.org/FermFas...nXzPA-qoCjbUmRL0GYsvHH-KTcB8TyCcaAjVkEALw_wcB

I split each pouch into two additions, 2.5 g in the mash and 2.5 g in primary after temp is below 140 F ish. Both values are prob overkill.

Currently brewing this:

 

[RPh_Guy]

These kits all have 10+$ worth of just liquid enzyme additions.

You're getting ripped off.

This bottle treats at least 150 gallons:
https://www.grapeandgranary.com/amylo-300-13-oz.html

As mentioned above, add it at pitching for maximal activity.

 

[enkamania]

My Brut IPA (which I'm sampling right now) I added amyloglucosidase day 2 of fermentation. At day 4, I was at 1.000. Mine is 6.2% abv, I like your idea of a "session" Brut in the 4% range.

 

[eric19312]

That 4% brut IPA will have an OG of about 1.030. I'm skeptical that you can really get enough flavor from the malt to support the big hop presence with such a small amount of malt. There is a thread here called "miller lite really triple hopped". This gets into discussion of how to make a really good light american lager with some enzyme additions recommended by the OP and disucssed by others. I made that beer and its good but not what I want out of an IPA.

I have had good luck with bruts with OG in the 1.045-50 range. Thats 6.2-6.8% alcohol. It's not sessionable but has plenty of flavor and doesn't drink like it is lacking anything.

I use this enzyme from Amazon https://www.amazon.com/DIAZYME-LIQU...sr_1_3?keywords=diazyme&qid=1584048406&sr=8-3
and that one bottle will make a lot. For 18 gallon to the fermentor batch I use 6mL added to my boil kettle during chilling when wort temperature falls below 130F.

 

[DVCNick]

I added glucoamylase at pitching time and it's been in the fermenter about 14 days now and looks done.
Will be kegging soon. I went with a normal recipe that should hit about 7% abv and really like the idea of cutting it with tonic water for the girlfriend.
Thanks all... will report back.

 

[DVCNick]

Kegged this morning, hyrdometer says .999 and it smells amazing... sample does come across as very dry as expected. 7.1% according to my numbers. So far so good!
Might be a good candidate for a pressure vessel next time; lots of hops and dry hop material in there. I think I will hit this one with some gelatin also.

 

[Brooothru]

There's another option without having to go down the amyloglucosidaise rabbit hole (which I have on a couple of occasions, and it did come out a bit thin, but it was what I was looking to do on that batch). There's a diastaticus yeast strain OYL-501 "Gulo" from Omega Yeast Labs that I used a year ago when it first came out. It's a cross between Irish Ale and French Saison yeast strains and is advertised to attenuate 85-90%. I used it along with a-amylase in the mash as well as amyloglucosidaise in both the mash and fermentation. Final gravity was 0.997. ABV was 6.9% on a grain bill of 10.5# on a 5.6 gallon batch size. Grains were 8# Pilsner, 1# white wheat, 1# flaked rice and half a pound flaked corn. Quarter ounce Magnum FWH, :20 minute whirlpool 1 oz each Nelson Sauvin & Hallertau Blanc, dry hopped 2 oz Hallertau Blanc and 1 oz Cryo Amarillo (because I didn't buy enough Nelson). It won First Place in a BJCP event in 34C Experimental Beer.

To modify it to what you're looking to achieve, try leaving out the enzymes and just use the Gulo yeast, swap out the Pilsner for something like 5# Maris Otter, Perle or Munich Light for base malt, leave out the rice and corn and consider either adding 1# of flaked oats and 1# of a light crystal malt like CaraMunich I. On that blank slate, bitter it with whatever type hops suit your GF's fancy from Noble to juicy or anything in between.

A quick run of the numbers comes up with something like this:

O.G. 1.035
F.G. 1.003 ~(85-90% attenuation)
ABV 4.2%
Kcal 112.8
carbs 7.5

That's getting it down to Lite Beer range while retaining some body with the adjunct grains and taste with a higher hopping rate (might want to stick with less aggressive hops and hopping rates to keep things in balance). If that's not low enough, try dropping a half pound of the base malt or adding a "judicious amount" of amylo to the fermentation. This will lower the ABV, carbs and calories, but be aware that this will also thin the beer out towards Michelob Dry/Ultra territory. Good luck!

Brooo Brother

 

[Brooothru]

FermFast Glucoamylase Enzyme

I split each pouch into two additions, 2.5 g in the mash and 2.5 g in primary after temp is below 140 F ish. Both values are prob overkill.

Currently brewing this:
View attachment 670563

@isomerization:

I had previously come across this article on Monk Fruit in "Craft Beer and Brewing" and found it interesting, having never heard about Monk Fruit before. I happened to come across some in the baking aisle recently in granular form and thought on a whim to buy it. But all the references in the article and in other sources I've found so far refer to juice-concentrate volumes with no equivalent mention of dry measure. Any thoughts on reconstituting the dried product (g/liter, into what medium) to produce a liquid equivalent?

I can see that this could become a deep rabbit hole involving multiple pilot brews to find the "Goldilocks zone" of application. But an adjunct with zero calories and zero carbs that adds body and mouthfeel while balancing fewer malts with aggressive hopping sounds like the Holy Grail of brewing. That, plus the fact that I've still got 450 ml of a 500 ml bottle of left-over amyloglucosidaise from last season's experiments that I need to find some purpose for.

Brooo Brother

 

[isomerization]

@isomerization:

I had previously come across this article on Monk Fruit in "Craft Beer and Brewing" and found it interesting, having never heard about Monk Fruit before. I happened to come across some in the baking aisle recently in granular form and thought on a whim to buy it. But all the references in the article and in other sources I've found so far refer to juice-concentrate volumes with no equivalent mention of dry measure. Any thoughts on reconstituting the dried product (g/liter, into what medium) to produce a liquid equivalent?

I can see that this could become a deep rabbit hole involving multiple pilot brews to find the "Goldilocks zone" of application. But an adjunct with zero calories and zero carbs that adds body and mouthfeel while balancing fewer malts with aggressive hopping sounds like the Holy Grail of brewing. That, plus the fact that I've still got 450 ml of a 500 ml bottle of left-over amyloglucosidaise from last season's experiments that I need to find some purpose for.

Brooo Brother

Does it have erythritol in it? If so, I wouldn’t use it. You want a liquid concentrate with nothing else preferably. I used one that had alcohol added (shelf stability?) and was very pleased with the final product.

 

[Brooothru]

Does it have erythritol in it? If so, I wouldn’t use it. You want a liquid concentrate with nothing else preferably. I used one that had alcohol added (shelf stability?) and was very pleased with the final product.

Ugh! It DOES contain erythritol. Not being one to chase after sugar or sugar substitutes, it never occurred to me to check for additional 'sugars'. The dead giveaway should have been its location on the shelf next to Stevia and other sweeteners. The only two ingredients listed on the package are erythritol and Monk Fruit extract, with erythritol being listed first, naturally.

Aside from possible bloating in some people, is there something more insidious about using it in the brewing process? Since it is a non-digestible sugar alcohol not tolerated well by some people, it seems similar in that regard to lactose and lactose intolerance. Since my wife has a bit of a problem with lactose, I guess we'll not be trying any of this any time soon in baking recipes. But I'm curious if it can be broken down by the enzymes in beer brewing such as b-amylase, a-amylase and amyloglucosidaise. If so it probably wouldn't work well in a low alcohol beer. I'll have to find some 100% Monk Fruit extract I guess.

Chalk this one up to another impulse buy gone wrong.

Brooo Brother

 

[DVCNick]

Well I ran out of will power and tapped it a couple days early. As of yesterday though, the carb was damn near perfect and it is clearing up nicely. Very tasty! It isn't coming across as dry as the hydro sample seemed either, maybe that is a function of being carbed?
So it still does have some body to it even though it is actually bone dry.

I think this is a keeper. I'll probably do it again with various different hop combos. I definitely like it better than the off-the-shelf brut I've had.

Edit: Probably going to try cutting it with tonic water to get it in the ~4% range today.

 

[Brooothru]

I'd go with club soda rather than tonic water. The tonic water contains quinine whereas club soda is simple water that's been force carbonated. Quinine is an effective anti-malarial. "Some" even claim it wards off the evil Corona virus (SARS-CoV2), but the "majority" reject this hypothesis.

 

[DVCNick]

Oh sorry... I always get them confused. Yes, I definitely intend to go with the one that is pure carbonated water!

 

[isomerization]

I'd go with club soda rather than tonic water. The tonic water contains quinine whereas club soda is simple water that's been force carbonated. Quinine is an effective anti-malarial. "Some" even claim it wards off the evil Corona virus (SARS-CoV2), but the "majority" reject this hypothesis.

Let’s not perpetuate any falsities (even in jest) about quinolones.

 

[Brooothru]

Let’s not perpetuate any falsities (even in jest) about quinolones.

Yeah, my bad. Although the British are alleged to have invented the Gin & Tonic as a palliative treatment for malaria during their abortive attempt to dig the Panama Canal.

 

[JLeather]

I just took a FG sample on a MoreBeer "Juicy Brut" kit tonight. 1.053 OG and 1.001 FG (with US-05). I pitched the "ultra-ferm" amyloglucosidase with the yeast after the boil/cool. Tonight was my first taste having never had a brut before and it's interesting to say the least. 6.8% ABV and practically no body whatsoever. I'm dry-hopping it for 3 days now. I'm very interested to see how it turns out when it's hopped, carb'd, and chilled.

 

[DVCNick]

"Juicy Brut" is the exact recipe I modeled mine on.... just subbed Centennial for the Amarillo because it's what I had on hand, and added an extra pound of 2-row to hit their target OG.

 

[madscientist451]

Let’s not perpetuate any falsities (even in jest) about quinolones.

Words are important. Stating a hypothesis is not the same as perpetuating a false statement. A hypothesis is simply a proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation.
But back to the OP's question, about making a brut IPA: I've been brewing some experimental low ABV, low carb IPAs and lagers since the new year started, (and lost 20 lbs) and I can report that adding the powdered glucoamalyze when adding the yeast works just fine.
I also mash at 149 for an extended time to make sure I'm producing a fermentable wort. I don't think that matters all that much because I tried it with an all LME beer and it fermented all the way dry. Drinking low carb brut IPA can get tiresome, and its amazing how your taste perceptions change when you get sugar out of your diet. I hate to admit it, but after drinking a bunch of brut IPA, a Miller Light doesn't taste all that bad.
Adding the Monkfruit extract and fruity dry hops really helps the brut IPA beers, but sometimes I cheat, want something different, and pull out some DIPA from my stash and blend 50/50 with my brut homebrew.
I figure I'm still cutting carbs/calories to some extent so its not a bad compromise.

 

[DVCNick]

As it turns out, the girlfriend likes it just the way it is at 7%, and so do I. Already got a 10 gallon recipe sheet worked up to duplicate it in my 10 gallon process. Will change up hop combos for experimentation depending on what I have, but I think it's a keeper.