Sanity check on a porter recipe

[Moose_MI]

Came up with this based on what I have on hand. I’ve never brewed a porter so was just hoping for a quick sanity check that Im not making some massive mistake. Thanks for looking!

Brew Method: All Grain
Style Name: Robust Porter
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 16 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 18 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.047
Efficiency: 70% (brew house)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.053
Final Gravity: 1.014
ABV (standard): 5.12%
IBU (tinseth): 26.33
SRM (daniels): 25.75
Mash pH: 5.51

FERMENTABLES:
15 lb - Brewers Malt 2-Row (42.3%)
15 lb - Maris Otter Pale (42.3%)
3 lb - Amber Malt (8.5%)
1.5 lb - Roasted Barley - (late addition) (4.2%)
1 lb - Carafa Special Type II - (late addition) (2.8%)

HOPS:
2 oz - Amarillo, Type: Pellet, AA: 8.6, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 20.9
2 oz - Fuggles, Type: Pellet, AA: 4.5, Use: Boil for 15 min, IBU: 5.43

OTHER INGREDIENTS:
3 tsp - Calcium Chloride (dihydrate), Time: 60 min, Type: Water Agt, Use: Mash
1 tsp - Gypsum, Time: 60 min, Type: Water Agt, Use: Mash
1 tsp - Lactic acid, Time: 60 min, Type: Water Agt, Use: Mash

YEAST:
Wyeast - Irish Ale 1084

TARGET WATER PROFILE:
Profile Name: London (Porter, dark ales)
Ca2: 100
Mg2: 5
Na: 35
Cl: 60
SO4: 50
HCO3: 265

 

[marc1]

Came up with this based on what I have on hand. I’ve never brewed a porter so was just hoping for a quick sanity check that Im not making some massive mistake. Thanks for looking!

Brew Method: All Grain
Style Name: Robust Porter
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 16 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 18 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.047
Efficiency: 70% (brew house)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.053
Final Gravity: 1.014
ABV (standard): 5.12%
IBU (tinseth): 26.33
SRM (daniels): 25.75
Mash pH: 5.51

FERMENTABLES:
15 lb - Brewers Malt 2-Row (42.3%)
15 lb - Maris Otter Pale (42.3%)
3 lb - Amber Malt (8.5%)
1.5 lb - Roasted Barley - (late addition) (4.2%)
1 lb - Carafa Special Type II - (late addition) (2.8%)

HOPS:
2 oz - Amarillo, Type: Pellet, AA: 8.6, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 20.9
2 oz - Fuggles, Type: Pellet, AA: 4.5, Use: Boil for 15 min, IBU: 5.43

OTHER INGREDIENTS:
3 tsp - Calcium Chloride (dihydrate), Time: 60 min, Type: Water Agt, Use: Mash
1 tsp - Gypsum, Time: 60 min, Type: Water Agt, Use: Mash
1 tsp - Lactic acid, Time: 60 min, Type: Water Agt, Use: Mash

YEAST:
Wyeast - Irish Ale 1084

TARGET WATER PROFILE:
Profile Name: London (Porter, dark ales)
Ca2: 100
Mg2: 5
Na: 35
Cl: 60
SO4: 50
HCO3: 265

Are you adding HCO3, or is that part of your base water that you deal with?

 

[Dgallo]

Are you adding HCO3, or is that part of your base water that you deal with?

Looks like he’s targeting the water profile of London.

@Moose_MI i wouldn’t specifically worry about targeting a specific bicarbonate level. The bicarbonate is your buffer and your only adding 4% dark grains. I would worry more about hitting your targeted mash ph. That HCO3 will end up working itself out by adding additional acid, just the grains, or baking soda

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Why are you using two base malt?
I've only brewed two porters, one of my own making and one pre made recipe, but the gist as I get it is to try too keep the grain bill as simple as possible.

 

[Moose_MI]

Are you adding HCO3, or is that part of your base water that you deal with?

I’m using my city tap water which is somewhat hard HCO3 of 137. I’m adding CC and gypsum to approximate the London profile. I’m adding 1 tsp of lactic to improve mash PH

Im open to other suggestions or thoughts...

 

[Moose_MI]

Looks like he’s targeting the water profile of London.

@Moose_MI i wouldn’t specifically worry about targeting a specific bicarbonate level. The bicarbonate is your buffer and your only adding 4% dark grains. I would worry more about hitting your targeted mash ph. That HCO3 will end up working itself out by adding additional acid, just the grains, or baking soda

Is targeting bicarbonate level the same as targeting HCO3? If so, I dont worry about that. I do try to get my Calcium levels up to 90ish.
I am adding 1tsp lactic to help with mash ph...i could probably add a 2nd but i find my mash ph often comes in a little lower than projected automagically.
Here’s my tap water report. I often dilute with 50% RO but for stouts/ambers I have not diluted in the past. Open to suggestions..

 

[Moose_MI]

Why are you using two base malt?
I've only brewed two porters, one of my own making and one pre made recipe, but the gist as I get it is to try too keep the grain bill as simple as possible.

A lot of stout/porter recipes seem to favor MO over American 2-row. I only have about 15lbs of MO on hand so I’m just going with what i got. I swapped out MO for American 2-row in an Irish red last year and really felt like it made a difference so I thought it might benefit this porter.
Same thing with the Amber malt..I’ve got a lot of it on hand and have been looking for something to use it up on. I see amber malt seems popular in porters also.
I also see Brown Malt in a lot of recipes....Ive never used it..don’t really want to order some. I read that you can make it yourself.
Unless I’m making a huge mistake I’d think I’d like to skip it this time

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Well, amber malt seems to be some sort of light roast malt.
I'm no expert on brewing but you could probably mash the roasted barley and carafa with the rest of the malts since you don't seem to have any crazy amounts of either.

 

[Moose_MI]

Well, amber malt seems to be some sort of light roast malt.
I'm no expert on brewing but you could probably mash the roasted barley and carafa with the rest of the malts since you don't seem to have any crazy amounts of either.

You’re absolutely correct...sometimes i out smart myself

I adjusted and with mashing the roasted grains dropped ph .1 point to 5.43. I may skip the 1tsp of lactic now.

Thanks!

 

[Dgallo]

Is targeting bicarbonate level the same as targeting HCO3? If so, I dont worry about that. I do try to get my Calcium levels up to 90ish.
I am adding 1tsp lactic to help with mash ph...i could probably add a 2nd but i find my mash ph often comes in a little lower than projected automagically.
Here’s my tap water report. I often dilute with 50% RO but for stouts/ambers I have not diluted in the past. Open to suggestions..

View attachment 709370
[/QUOTE

What’s your targeted mash ph and what program are you using for water Chem? My Taps bicarbonate is 126 and when I brew my schwarzbier that has roughly 6% dark grain I fall in proper mash ph ranges and only add about a half gram of baking soda to hit 5.5 ph. If you’re cutting your tap in half with RO than your also halfing the ions, so I just think that there is something wrong with your inputs if it’s still asking you to add acid. That being said, looks like you are adding a relatively small amount of acid in a bigger mash volume, so my experience my not exactly apply here

 

[Moose_MI]

What’s your targeted mash ph and what program are you using for water Chem? My Taps bicarbonate is 126 and when I brew my schwarzbier that has roughly 6% dark grain I fall in proper mash ph ranges and only add about a half gram of baking soda to hit 5.5 ph. If you’re cutting your tap in half with RO than your also halfing the ions, so I just think that there is something wrong with your inputs if it’s still asking you to add acid. That being said, looks like you are adding a relatively small amount of acid in a bigger mash volume, so my experience my not exactly apply here

Target mash PH is 5.4ish but I’m open to suggestions
I use Brewers Friend
I had the dark grains originally as late additions so they were not helping me as much. I’ve since changed that and will probably skip the lactic acid now
I am NOT currently planning to cut this brew with RO...I’m landing right at 5.4 with 100%tap and a 1tsp lactic in a 15G batch so the RO isnt really needed on this beer...at least I dont think it is

Any thoughts on the grain bill And or hops?

 

[McKnuckle]

I would never add acid to a porter or stout. The dark roast covers that for you. I use distilled or RO water, though. Maybe your tap water has a lot of residual alkalinity. I target a mash pH of 5.45-5.5 for these beers to help them finish smooth.

Amber malt, BTW, is a traditional English malt roasted to split the difference between pale ale malt and brown malt. You have 15.5% roasted malts in your bill. That's relatively a lot, and should produce a beer with a coffee focus, a bit sharp or tangy depending on which word you prefer.

You could soften it with some crystal malt, say 5% in the 75-150L range, by reducing roasted barley to 3% and then steal the rest from the amber malt. But that's entirely a matter of taste.

 

[Moose_MI]

I would never add acid to a porter or stout. The dark roast covers that for you. I use distilled or RO water, though. Maybe your tap water has a lot of residual alkalinity. I target a mash pH of 5.45-5.5 for these beers to help them finish smooth.

Amber malt, BTW, is a traditional English malt roasted to split the difference between pale ale malt and brown malt. You have 15.5% roasted malts in your bill. That's relatively a lot, and should produce a beer with a coffee focus, a bit sharp or tangy depending on which word you prefer.

You could soften it with some crystal malt, say 5% in the 75-150L range, by reducing roasted barley to 3% and then steal the rest from the amber malt. But that's entirely a matter of taste.

On the off chance it’s relevant I wonder if the fact that the carafa II Special is dehusked was factored into your feedback? It’s a little subtle so I just ask to be sure because I think you’re raising a great point and I want to be sure we’re on the same page. I’m not challenging your feedback at all..I value it!

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I wouldn't have any problems mashing it even if it was not dehusked. We are talking about 3% here...but then it depends on how wary of astringency you are but it's likely not gonna affect much in such small quantities. As said i am still pretty new to this but I think the experts would agree.

 

[McKnuckle]

Yes, that is why I wouldn't reduce the Carafa, either "special" or not. It's going to provide good color and a smooth roasty flavor. I don't think there's anything wrong with the grain bill at all as is. I'd expect it to be a fairly traditional brown porter, of English origin of course. Porter has evolved into a style with wide boundaries, so if you've never brewed one and don't know how they come out, I made a suggestion based on that.

I've been on a porter/stout kick lately, and have two going. Here are the fermentables for your amusement and confusion:

No crystal in this first one, still in primary, but it has some dark sugar:

Pale ale malt 63.4%
Invert #3 sugar 11.4%
Munich dark 10.1%
Malted oats 5.7%
Brown malt 5.4%
Carafa II 4.1%

Second one has a ton of crystal and is nearly gone, very tasty:

Pale ale malt 73.5%
UK Crystal 150L 12%
Brown malt 7%
Black treacle 4.5%
Pale chocolate 3%

 

[Dgallo]

@McKnuckle amber malt is a 30 L grain. He only has 2.5 lbs of roasted grain out of 34.5 lbs of grain. That’s 4% of his total grain bill

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Yes, that is why I wouldn't reduce the Carafa, either "special" or not. It's going to provide good color and a smooth roasty flavor. I don't think there's anything wrong with the grain bill at all as is. I'd expect it to be a fairly traditional brown porter, of English origin of course. Porter has evolved into a style with wide boundaries, so if you've never brewed one and don't know how they come out, I made a suggestion based on that.

I've been on a porter/stout kick lately, and have two going. Here are the fermentables for your amusement and confusion:

No crystal in this first one, still in primary, but it has some dark sugar:

Pale ale malt 63.4%
Invert #3 sugar 11.4%
Munich dark 10.1%
Malted oats 5.7%
Brown malt 5.4%
Carafa II 4.1%

Second one has a ton of crystal and is nearly gone, very tasty:

Pale ale malt 73.5%
UK Crystal 150L 12%
Brown malt 7%
Black treacle 4.5%
Pale chocolate 3%

When you add Munich and invert sugar, does the small taste the sugar leave behind and the sweetness from Munich sorta kinda act as a crystal malt and smooth out/ balance the roast?

 

[McKnuckle]

Understood, but amber is still a roasted grain. I wasn't saying it's excessive, but they do add up to 15.5%. One of the most convenient ways to approach a porter or stout is to break up the fermentables into categories - base, roast, crystal, adjunct, sugar. It gives a useful profile and is helpful to assess recipes.

 

[McKnuckle]

When you add Munich and invert sugar, does the small taste the sugar leave behind and the sweetness from Munich sorta kinda act as a crystal malt and smooth out/ balance the roast?

I'm gonna have to get back to you on that, since it's bubbling away. But that's the idea. With the other porter having 12% dark crystal and 4.5% treacle, it absolutely has a sweet character that I love. I brewed the one with invert sugar as a second experiment. It has a lot more brown/roast character and no crystal to balance it, because I wanted to see how the invert sugar performed (I made it).

 

[LittleRiver]

I love Amarillo hops in pale ales and IPA's, but to me the grapefruit flavor of them is not a good match for a brown, porter, or stout.

 

[McKnuckle]

Hopefully the Amarillo will just add bitterness and not get in the way, but I generally agree.

This being said, I really enjoy hops like Centennial or Simcoe in this style of beer when chocolate malt replaces brown and/or roasted barley, when there's some crystal, and when American ale yeast is used. Sort of the "Cascadian Dark Ale" thing. It really does work.

OP's recipe has that brown porter profile, which isn't a good match for American hops. But I don't think too much hop flavor will carry through the 60 minute boil.

 

[LittleRiver]

Last week I tried a Bell's Best Brown. The first sip tasted off to me, there was a flavor that seemed out of place that I couldn't initially identify. After several more sips it became apparent the flavor was grapefruit. It was a bit hidden behind the other flavors, but there was enough of it to make me reach for a different brown next time. I'm glad I only bought one can to sample.

 

[Dgallo]

Understood, but amber is still a roasted grain. I wasn't saying it's excessive, but they do add up to 15.5%. One of the most convenient ways to approach a porter or stout is to break up the fermentables into categories - base, roast, crystal, adjunct, sugar. It gives a useful profile and is helpful to assess recipes.

Amber would be considered a crystal from that perspective though. Technically all crystal malts are Kilned or roast just extremely lightly

 

[McKnuckle]

Amber is not a crystal malt. One reference: Brewing With Amber Malt

And The Oxford Companion to Beer Definition of Crystal malt.

Crystal malts are prepared by allowing moisture from germinating to remain, so that the starches are saccharified during roasting. That's not what happens with amber, which is dried first, retaining its starches. At least these are the traditional preparation methods.

 

[Dgallo]

Amber is not a crystal malt. One reference: Brewing With Amber Malt

Crystal malts are prepared by allowing moisture from germinating to remain, so that the starches are saccharified during roasting. That's not what happens with amber, which is dried first, retaining its starches. At least these are the traditional preparation methods.

Totally understood, it’s toasted like biscuit malt is but I was speaking from the perspective of mash ph that it’s technically going to have the same effect on the mash ph as say c30 would so I wouldn’t include in my recipe building as part of the “roasted” grains and would only really consider 300L + grains in that category.

 

[McKnuckle]

Ah, whew, we can agree on that. My percentages approach is more about flavor profile than effect on the mash.

 

[Moose_MI]

You could soften it with some crystal malt, say 5% in the 75-150L range, by reducing roasted barley to 3% and then steal the rest from the amber malt. But that's entirely a matter of taste.

How about this...
FERMENTABLES:
15 lb - Brewers Malt 2-Row (42%)
15 lb - Maris Otter Pale (42%)
2 lb - Amber Malt (5.6%)
1 lb - Roasted Barley (2.8%)
1 lb - Carafa Special Type II (2.8%)
1.75 lb - American - Caramel / Crystal 120L (4.9%)

 

[McKnuckle]

Methinks that will be a tasty beer! Keep your mash pH above 5.4. BU:GU ratio in the 0.5-0.6 range.

 

[Moose_MI]

Methinks that will be a tasty beer! Keep your mash pH above 5.4. BU:GU ratio in the 0.5-0.6 range.

I shall report back...of that you can be sure.

Many thanks to all who offered guidance, input, opinions, and experiences!!

 

[McKnuckle]

Sounds good. I'll post some follow-up comments about the porter I'm brewing as well, from post #15.

 

[BongoYodeler]

I’ve got a Porter in the fermenter as well. A Pecan Porter to be precise. A little yeast mishap but a one-week sample tasted quite good, and it seems to have fermented out to the estimated FG, so I think it’ll be alright. Hope to keg it this weekend.

 

[Moose_MI]

Brewed this yesterday ... mash ph was about 4.7 with just a little CC and Gypsum added to tap water. OG was 1.065 .. a full .08 puts higher than projected... I definitely picked up some sweetness from the c120 but seemed balanced. Looking forward to this one!

 

[Dgallo]

Brewed this yesterday ... mash ph was about 4.7 with just a little CC and Gypsum added to tap water. OG was 1.065 .. a full .08 puts higher than projected... I definitely picked up some sweetness from the c120 but seemed balanced. Looking forward to this one!

That’s a pretty low mash ph. Did you measure it at room temp?

if correct, there is always the concern for a thinner beer with less head retention/foam development due to lower protein extraction. Slightly lower is better than slightly higher though

 

[Moose_MI]

Ooops....and that’s why we dont post before 2 cups of coffee....5.47..not 4.7

 

[Moose_MI]

Update: This is a really good beer. Been in keg for 6 days and is already very good. I put peanut butter extract into 1 of the 3 kegs and it’s good also if you’re into that sort of thing. Nothing really jumping out at me that I would change right now. I’m glad the crystal malt is in there..smooths it out nicely

 

[McKnuckle]

Glad to hear it! Do you taste the light coffee flavor of the amber malt?

Here is a picture of mine, grain bill reminder below. It is classic brown porter in flavor - courtesy of the brown malt and Carafa. The invert sugar... it leaves a burnt caramel twang/sweetness on the back of the tongue which is really nice. Note that there is no crystal malt in this one.

Pale ale malt 63.4%
Invert #3 sugar 11.4%
Munich dark 10.1%
Malted oats 5.7%
Brown malt 5.4%
Carafa II 4.1%

 

[Moose_MI]

That’s a beautiful pint!

Yes, I definitely get coffee. It’s not in your face but it’s also not exactly subtle...it’s just balanced. I wasnt aware amber malt would add coffee notes. I was assuming it was coming from the carafa special II. I dont have any head retention or lacing at all but that may change with a little more time