MooDaddy
Well-Known Member
Planning to bottle tomorrow. I have 2 cases of new 12 oz bottles still in the shipping boxes. What is the current recommended protocol for sanitizing these new bottles prior to bottling?
Thank you
Thank you
As long as you let them drain inverted (e.g., in a FastRack), you should be good, in my experience. At the beginning of my bottling session, I sanitize 54 bottles (enough for a batch) by "gurgling" them full in a bucket of StarSan, "gurgling" the StarSan back out, and then leaving the bottles inverted on my FastRack. Dust/yeast/bacteria/etc. generally drift down with gravity, so the inversion is key. There's still plenty of StarSan foam (don't fear the foam!) left in my bottles by the time I fill them with beer. Once I fill a bottle, I set a cap loosely on top (make sure you sanitize the caps, too). Once I have six bottles filled, I secure the caps with my bench capper. This has worked great for me so far.Starsan is my choice for the final sanitizing but it only work when wet so I sanitize a dozen bottles at a time, fill and cap them, then do another dozen.
If you rinse the bottle with tap water after sanitising them, you could basically skip the whole sanitation procedure. Unboiled tap water is as microorganism free as the outlet in your sink.New bottles, I would only rinse them, and then sanitize.
I sanitize with the oven method, as described in the Braumeister instruction manual.
Put the bottles in the cold oven. I let some water in each of them, because humid heat sanitizes better than dry heat;
Make the oven reach 150 °C;
Keep the oven for five minutes at 150 °C;
Turn the heat off and let the oven cool down with the door closed.
When the inside of the oven reaches some 30-35°C, take the bottles out, empty them from the water inside, and cap them with sanitized plastic caps, or some aluminium foil.
Use them within a few days.
With two oven batches I sanitize bottles for an usual 21 litres beer batch. My oven is inside a standard 60cm x 60cm gas stove.
This might be not as practical as chemical sanitization, but I like the fact that no chemical disinfectant is used inside the bottle (a tiny amount is on the inside surface of the cap, which in theory should not even come in touch with the beer).
If I had to use a chemical sanitizer such as StarSan for the bottles, I would let it work for 5 minutes and then rinse the bottles with tap water. That's me, and YMMV.
If you rinse the bottle with tap water after sanitising them, you could basically skip the whole sanitation procedure. Unboiled tap water is as microorganism free as the outlet in your sink.
Pretty bad practice though. And pelase don't throw cleaning and ssanitizing into the same bucket here. We are talking about sanitising. Sanitising is supposed to be the last step, when every dirt has been already removed. If you rinse it with tap water, you basically remove the "sanitisation", if such a word exists.I disagree.
When you clean and sanitize a bottle, you are removing the thin layer of dirt which accumulated in maybe months or years. Then you sanitize it for added precaution. Now that you have sanitized, your bottle is free of previous biological contaminants, but it's not free of chemical contaminants.
You rinse it now with tap water, which is not really sterile, but it's pretty decent microbiologically speaking and the contact between water and bottle is "fast and thin", you take the water out, the bottle is perfectly clean.
The result is a bottle with no chemical, and a tiny amount of microbes.
This tiny amount of microbes is less than you had before the sanitizing procedure, and is not sufficient to spoil your beer.
I see many in Italian fora who use chemicals to sanitize bottles and then rinse them, without any adverse consequence. This is also, for what I know, the standard procedure in wine bottling (but wine has a higher alcohol content, I know).
We don't need perfect sanitization, but good enough "for Government work". A glass bottle will retain only a few drops of water after you turn it upside down and empty it.
Pretty bad practice though. And pelase don't throw cleaning and ssanitizing into the same bucket here. We are talking about sanitising. Sanitising is supposed to be the last step, when every dirt has been already removed. If you rinse it with tap water, you basically remove the "sanitisation", if such a word exists.
By this logic, you should be able to give your bottles a swish in the toilet, because "the sanitization already happened."Yes I know, you clean first, you sanitize after. But sanitizing is a step which is completed once the sanitizer did the job. If you rinse with tap water the "sanitization", after the sanitizer has had the time to sanitize, the bottle remains sanitized. You don't "remove the sanitization" because the sanitization already happened, and now the sanitizer is not required any more.
By this logic, you should be able to give your bottles a swish in the toilet, because "the sanitization already happened."
If you really want to rinse off the no-rinse sanitizer, use distilled water instead of tap water.
Or, just don't rinse the no-rinse sanitizer.
Actually, I am pretty sure that a glas of Star san, in the propper no rinse concentration, would not give you problems when drinking, although I would not recommend it.I am confident my bottles are cleaned better than my toilet, and are not that dirty in the first place. I don't put excrements in my bottles, only very good homemade healthy beer, which is very liquid and has no adhesivity, no bacterial charge etc.
But yes, you can rinse with distilled water, bottled water, whatever you see fit and clean enough. But the "no-rinse" logic is faulted in this, that you are actually drinking that sanitizer, and a sanitizer is not food, and also in small quantities is something that I like to avoid.
(Besides, if I had to have recourse to a reductio ad absurdum like you did in the toilet example, I could say "by this logic, you should be able to drink a glass of StarSan without consequences", which we know wouldn't help my point).
Actually, I am pretty sure that a glas of Star san, in the propper no rinse concentration, would not give you problems when drinking, although I would not recommend it.
The problem in your country might not be the water, but the tap itself. It certainly is full of nasties that you do not want to multiply in your beer and your water passes through it.
@Birrofilo I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from. Are you claiming that once the bottle is sanitized, the microbes in all tap water will not adhere to the surface of the bottle? Or, is it your claim that the small amount of microbes that do adhere to the bottle are not enough to cause any sort of infection in the finished beer?
From what I remember of looking at the MSDS for Star San, its primary and active ingredient is phosphoric acid. This is an additive in Coke (whether you consider Coke to be a poison is beyond the scope here) and falls in the generally recognized as safe category in the US and is assigned E338 in the EU.
Very interesting post, @bu_gee.
I have a problem with this "20-30%" indication. 20 or 30? But then, I could buy 30% phosphoric acid without more recklessness than I had in buying Saniclean!
Maybe we can ask Martin Brungard to insert "Star San" as acidifyng agent in Bru'n water
Well, then, if your sanitizing agent is Saniclean, you can actually not rinse it in proper dilutions, without worries. That's "beer".
This is just about the only thing we've agreed on all day!Overthinking the process can be counterproductive.
@Qhrumphf
Yes bleach has to be rinsed with hot water (cold water is not enough) and that is typically hot water from a tap.
I see now that you also call "vinator" that rinsing contraction. That shows how ancient is the practice of rinsing bottles with wine before bottling (wine is generally more alcoholic and therefore more resistent to infections in any case).
I know that some people use it to coat with a sulphite-wine mixture, but considering that sulphites are not sanitizers, they are not reeally sanitizing the bottles and that reinforces the idea that sanitizing is "overrated".
True. In my opinion, without any data to back it up, I think it was more a way to help preserve the natural wood cork than it was to sanitize the bottle.
That being said, wine is particularly susceptible to a specific group of microbes that turn the alcohol into vinegar. In my reading about production techniques, I recall reading that the sulfites are particularly good at stopping either the microbes themselves or interrupting the process chemically.
Maybe it is both.
I should note that wine isn't something I've ever made so the process would be better described by somebody who actually know more about it.
That being said, wine is particularly susceptible to a specific group of microbes that turn the alcohol into vinegar. In my reading about production techniques, I recall reading that the sulfites are particularly good at stopping either the microbes themselves or interrupting the process chemically.
It's not the phosphoric acid in Star-San that's the active ingredient. It's dodecylbenzenesulfonic acid. IIRC the phos keeps the pH low enough for the active ingredient to be an effective anionic sanitizer. I can't speak for Saniclean.
Charlie Talley, inventor of Star San and president of the company (I think retired now), stated that cleaning theoretically eliminates the need for sanitizing. Sanitizing is insurance. Obviously, he advocates sanitizing. But cleaning generally involves rinsing with tap water. This seems to imply that lack of sanitizing is ok most of the time, and probably rinsing with chlorinated tap water is ok most of the time. Each brewer makes the decision for his/her circumstances.
I apologize if it sounded like I'm anti-sanitizing. Personally, I wouldn't brew without it. The key is "most of the time". I use Star San and don't rinse it, and would recommend that to anyone who asked. I like the "insurance" aspect. But Charlie Talley's statement has always stuck with me. Cleaning and sanitizing is all about improving your chances of a good outcome - not guarantying it.Sure, if you had high power, high heat water jets that were regularly cleaned and demineralized being used to clean brand new bottles then there would be no real need for chemical sanitizers. Most of us don't have that option at home and most of us are reusing bottles and equipment.
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