Sanctuary Gose

[bovineblitz]

This isn't really a true gose. It seems more like a tart beer not sour.

The gose coming out of Germany in the last 100 years has all been mildly tart. Find me a commercial example not first made in the past 5 years that's really sour?

 

[Craigmn]

I think he's referencing that it's just the acid malt and no lacto souring

 

[klowneyy]

I think he's referencing that it's just the acid malt and no lacto souring

You are correct Sorry not trying to start a fight or anything. Just wanted to make sure people who try this as their first gose understand that this isn't a 100% true to a gose. The lactobacillus, peddiocucus, coriander sea salt and typically 70% pilsener 30% wheat malt and usually 2%-4% alcohol content. Over a 100 years ago we didn't have a good way to cool down wort. We would coolship it. That's where the lacto or pedio got introduced into the beer. It thrives best at 87f to 120f. And if you really wan to get 100% accurate Back in the day they didn't add sea salt either. The salt came naturally from the water source

 

[bovineblitz]

You are correct Sorry not trying to start a fight or anything. Just wanted to make sure people who try this as their first gose understand that this isn't a 100% true to a gose. The lactobacillus, peddiocucus, coriander sea salt and typically 70% pilsener 30% wheat malt and usually 2%-4% alcohol content. Over a 100 years ago we didn't have a good way to cool down wort. We would coolship it. That's where the lacto or pedio got introduced into the beer. It thrives best at 87f to 120f. And if you really wan to get 100% accurate Back in the day they didn't add sea salt either. The salt came naturally from the water source

Okay... most of us don't have salty water sources. That's like saying people with soft water can't make IPAs with 'burton water' because they have to add various salts.

This recipe is described as a quick gose that doesn't use lacto. The outcome of this beer is true to a gose, which is what matters. Nowadays we have people using ale strains for lagers that are done in 2 weeks, and they're clearly lagers, would you say that they're not 'real' lagers? Competitions certainly can't tell the difference.

You could sour mash/kettle this recipe but it's hard to make it only mildly tart that way. You could pitch lacto in secondary, that'd work okay but it'd take a lot longer and oftentimes lacto doesn't do anything. Or, go with what you're saying about the history of gose 100+ years ago and spontaneously ferment it like a lambic, which nobody does for a gose and would probably not create a beer resembling the light, spritzy, mildy tart, mildly salty refreshing beers out of Germany once you're done fermenting it for 8-20 months.

Not sure what your goal is here. This is a quick, easily reproducible gose, not a history lesson.

 

[klowneyy]

Right their the fact that you say it does not have lacto or pedio in it. That is a main stable in a gose. I was stating the fact about the water and salt because of the show me an actual 100 year old gose that isn't tart i was saying if you want to get 100% actuate they didnt use sea salt either to an 100 year old recipe. Their is a difference between tart and sour. I'm sorry you can say this is a gose but it is not. It's a tart pilsener/wheat beer. Maybe before putting recipes up you should do research and make sure what you are calling a beer is actually the correct beer.

 

[Blue-Frog]

Hi guys.

I hope to learn from all of you, so could you summarize your main points,
and work to find the essential truth we all can grow from?

If the Rx isn't traditional, so be it.
Admit it and lets judge the result on taste, not historical precedence.

But I think it is important to know about differences.

I would like to know more about the difference between "Tart" and "Sour"... From usage, it would seem that tart simply means a low level of sourness.
Isn't it just a difference of degree?
Sort of like white - grey - black?
If there is a definitive objective description of the difference...
that would be good to know!

Anyway,
I think it would be helpful if you (or someone) could sum up the main points, points of conention, whatever and perhaps send each other some samples to get your point across.

That would be fun, no?.

Sorry for butting in, but this is unpleasent!

It seems to me that the only important things here are :
1. How to make good beer,
2. Accurate understanding of both modern & historical methods and
3. Friendly comradery.

 

[bovineblitz]

Hi guys.

I hope to learn from all of you, so could you summarize your main points,
and work to find the essential truth we all can grow from?

If the Rx isn't traditional, so be it.
Admit it and lets judge the result on taste, not historical precedence.

But I think it is important to know about differences.

I would like to know more about the difference between "Tart" and "Sour"... From usage, it would seem that tart simply means a low level of sourness.
Isn't it just a difference of degree?
Sort of like white - grey - black?
If there is a definitive objective description of the difference...
that would be good to know!

Anyway,
I think it would be helpful if you (or someone) could sum up the main points, points of conention, whatever and perhaps send each other some samples to get your point across.

That would be fun, no?.

Sorry for butting in, but this is unpleasent!

It seems to me that the only important things here are :
1. How to make good beer,
2. Accurate understanding of both modern & historical methods and
3. Friendly comradery.

Hey, thanks for butting in, this is a good idea.

- My understanding is that a gose 100+ years ago was designed to fit a salty water profile and was likely at least partially spontaneously fermented and probably contained both lactobacillus and pediococcus, similar to a lambic, and hops were probably used mainly to maintain proper bacteria:yeast activity. It was sour by nature, and undoubtedly darker than it is now and probably a little smoky due to how malting worked. Those recipes seem to have all but disappeared, and more modern versions coming out of Germany using pilsner malt almost died out too. They were/are quite clean with a moderate amount of lactic sourness. The flavor profile is lightly sour, lightly salty, light and spritzy.

Homebrewers re-popularized the style in the past 10 years or so. There's 3 ways that people have been souring gose:
- Traditional - Lactobacillus in primary, sometimes for ~24h before the primary yeast is pitched to give it a head start
- Mash - Sour mash/kettle, with either lacto from grains or from a lab/yogurt/probiotic
- Acid - Adding lactic acid directly via acid malt and/or 88% lactic acid

All three of the methods work just fine.

- Primary is probably the optimal way, but you run the risk of the lactobacillus not souring your beer at all and it can take a while, and also if you don't pre-sour your wort with a bit of acid then it will eat head-forming proteins. This is presumably how they're made in Germany, with a yeast/bacteria blend that's reused from batch to batch.

- Sour mash/kettle for 2-5 days works well, but the risks there are that you grow bugs that you don't want, the flavor profile may not be as clean particularly if you let oxygen in during the souring, it's hard to get the exact right amount of acidity you want, and your yeast has to contest with high acidity which can be stressful - the benefit is that it's fast and less of a time commitment. Most American breweries are doing this (not all though).

- Adding acid is the fastest, simplest way. Its benefit is that you have total control over the amount of acidity because you can add more at bottling, this allows you to adjust to water with any buffering capacity. It's the fastest and there's no bacteria introduced so if you're scared of infecting your equipment it's appealing. The drawback is that the acid profile will probably be a bit less complex and using far too much lactic acid can lend a bit of a buttery character (which is why I suggest using acid malt too if you know you need to add a ton of acidity). Another risk appears to be that someone will come into your recipe thread flailing about like happened here.

------------------------------

- The recipe posted here is a quick, easy gose designed after what you can find in Germany. Mildly tart, pretty light on the salt - but it's super easy to add more acid and salt at bottling/in the keg if you want to. It's extremely reproducible and very easy to make. I personally don't see much of a benefit to using actual lacto particularly in this style, I've tried all 3 and really like the consistency with this method and don't miss any of the other characteristics. I don't want to have to make two batches and blend to get the proper result for a simple 5 gallon summer sipper, and this recipe comes out great. I sour mash all my berliner weisses because I'm shooting for the "florida weisse" style a la Cigar City, and I get a very consistent result. I use all three methods for different beers, and I think they're all great.

- A lot of people have been sour mashing and just letting the pH drop until it slows down, typically 3.3-3.5 pH, which I consider too sour for a gose. Most of what I've seen coming out of American breweries are like this. It's debatable how sour they're 'supposed' to be, but my recipe is modeled after the handful of German examples I've had which are supposed to be the beers that define the style. This debate has come up multiple times recently in various places, and I think it's because of the "Americanizing" of the style making people think that a gose is supposed to be really sour and really salty. I think that those versions taste great as well, but that's not what this recipe is going for.

- I have no idea what he's talking about with this 'tart vs sour' thing, pretty much everyone views them as a continuum of the same thing when it comes to beer. This whole thread happened to hit right after a tough football game on a Sunday so I was probably a bit more on edge than I would have liked when I responded, but IMO it still doesn't excuse the whirling dervish, fragmented, non-conversational, broken-logic aggressive approach to offering criticism that this guy came in here with.

In summary - there's many ways to skin a cat, and the OUTCOME is what matters. I imagine that people have come across this thread and decided to sour mash, that's great just go make some gose.

 

[klowneyy]

sour is the strong acidy lasting taste, such as when you lick a lemon (which is bitter as well). Some people would say that lemon is tart but if an orange is tart, how can a lemon be tart? When milk goes bad, it's sour not tart the sourness comes from the lactobacillus in the milk.

Tart is not as strong, not as lasting and is usually mixed with sweet witch is the opposite of what you want in a sour. That's why tart is often used in describing cakes and sweets such as lemon pie: the citric flavor is no longer sour but tart. A Granny Smith apple is tart and so is a grapefruit. This is why I'm stating this isn't a gose. Not because of 100% history not correct. Couldn't care if it was but guess I didn't get that point made well enough well. with that being said.

A gose is normally 60% pilsener 30% wheat and normally 10% acid malts for tartness another reason for adding acid malts is to try and lower the p.h below 5 to better help with head retention. Or the lactobacillus will break down the enzymes in head retention a lot faster.

If you use lacto you can make a starter 2 to 3 days ahead. I recommend OYL-605 Omega yeast blend has lacto brevis witch works better at room temperature so you won't need to worry about how to keep it above 100f to better let lacto grow. If you make a start you can brew your beer cool it down to 90f fill carboy as much as possible to better not allowed oxygen in or purge with co2. After 24 hrs the p.h should be at 3.4 ish after that pitch your yeast and wait and after a month you have a very tasty tart/sour beer.

If you don't make a lacto starter and added into secondary it will take 3 to 6 months to get sour.

For people who don't use lactobacillus will end up with a tart beer people who do use lactobacillus will get a sour tart beer and get two 100% different tasting beer. I tried making that point several times.

I'm happy to help in anyways possible. I have more than 6 and for 4 years brewing non traditional beers.

P.s gose didn't almost die out. It was mainly brewed in a small area in Germany and not produced anywhere else in the world. Gose wasnt even affected by Reinhitsgebot at all they had special permission because the salt came naturally from their water source. It was just not known to the scale it is now same with Berliner weisse.

 

[bovineblitz]

Your descriptions of tart and sour don't really make sense, you're just saying that tart is less sour with a separate, unrelated sweet component being present. The only distinction I've ever seen is that tart may be more of a 'fruity' sourness, like citrus or apples, whereas sour is a more general term and encompasses tart. The terms are not mutually exclusive.

I don't agree with your distinction that certain methods lead to tartness vs sourness (using your definitions that I also don't agree with). You could just add more acid and boom, sour. If anything, there's some small character difference between the methods due to bacteria being not present/present for differing amounts of time, but lactic acid is lactic acid no matter how it comes about.

Furthermore, you didn't really describe it in this thread, you just repeated that there's a difference and made a vague reference without any link and said 'go find it'. Feels like "it's not my job to educate you", which isn't a good color on anyone. We agree on a lot of the same things when it comes down to it, but your conversational style was extremely adversarial and it's almost like you were purposely not connecting dots, describing your perspective, or backing up what you said just to be inflammatory.

 

[Blue-Frog]

Experts do dissagree.
It happens all the time.
There are NUANCES that mean the world to some and are of no concern to others.

I have heard that there is a differtence between chemically dosed lactic acid sourness and that produced using tradional German methods...
perhaps this difference is the truth we are dancing around, I don't know,

Ordinary language really dosen't prepare a person to describe flavor nuances in my opinion.

I can see something in a distinction between tart and sour, but really I think wish there was a more scientific way to specify what is meant.

Anyway, I look forward to making some of my own.

Thank you both for pointing out what to pay attention to.

 

[klowneyy]

Lactobacillus adds a milk/cheese flavor that Acid malts or any other acid will not give you. It is a different flavor profile. Sorry should of just said that in the beginning.

also forgot to mention a very important fact! When dealing with lactobacillus it is very sensitive to ibu's people argue on either keeping it under 25 or 10 ibu's for better results. I've gotten best results with under 10 myself. Hops fight p.h levels and sourness in beer because hops are naturally sanitized and doesn't affect the wort. But can fight off bacteria and make it hard for lactobacillus to grow and thrive.

 

[bovineblitz]

I don't agree that lactobacillus adds milky or cheesy flavors, those are off-flavors (iso-valeric acid, most likely). You may have an association between tartness and certain dairy products that links them in your head, but if you get any cheesy flavors at all something didn't go right. It mostly comes about from improper sour mashing, and is one of the big reasons there's a whole backlash against sour mashing in general. There's a glut of homebrewers and even commercial brewers making fast sours that taste like parmesan/spoiled milk/vomit/diapers. I still really like the method because it can be done well, but I've definitely tasted (and dumped) my fair share of iso-valeric and butyric 'sours'.

A good sour mashed beer should have a clean, non-dairy tartness. It can help to use brettanomyces to try to reduce small amounts of those compounds below taste/smell threshold, but it's not a panacea. I usually use ECY Dirty Dozen as my yeast blend because I like the small amount of funk it adds, and it's super acid tolerant, and as a bonus it is capable of converting some of those nasty compounds into less-offensive things. I've used S05 in the past too (nicely acid tolerant), works just fine.

This is a good blog post that gets into a lot of detail, part 2 for the off-flavors - http://sourbeerblog.com/fast-souring-lactobacillus/ . It actually talks about using the bacteria vs acid, and I agree that there's some flavor difference, maybe a bit of broad mustiness that can linger if you don't boil the wort after souring, but I definitely don't agree that there's an 'artificial' taste. Plus, I associate that bit of funkiness with berliner weisse and not gose. I'd personally only go all out trying to preserve that type of flavor if I were doing a no-boil berliner soured in primary, otherwise IMO it's going to dissipate or be overwhelmed by other flavors.

 

[passedpawn]

Lactobacillus adds a milk/cheese flavor

come again? Not the sour beers / berliners I've made.

 

[klowneyy]

come again? Not the sour beers / berliners I've made.

I believe it's lacto brevis but could be very mistaken need to do a refresher on different lacto bacteria. that gives the milk/dairy taste to the beers I am talking about their are several different kinds of lacto strains lacto brevis is just one of a wide Ray of lacto bacterias. Just like brettanomcyes trois and brettanomcyes brux and different strains of the same yeast and give much different different taste.


omega yeast labs OYL-605 special blend gives off pineapple notes. It really depends on what lactobacillus bacteria you are using.

 

[bovineblitz]

I believe it's lacto brevis but could be very mistaken need to do a refresher on different lacto bacteria. that gives the milk/dairy taste to the beers I am talking about their are several different kinds of lacto strains lacto brevis is just one of a wide Ray of lacto bacterias. Just like brettanomcyes trois and brettanomcyes brux and different strains of the same yeast and give much different different taste.

Again, disagree. Flavor-wise, I've never really heard much discussion on different lacto strains. It's always about homo- vs hetero-, souring speed, pH that can be reached, and temperature ranges.

 

[Pappers_]

Lactobacillus adds a milk/cheese flavor that Acid malts or any other acid will not give you. It is a different flavor profile. Sorry should of just said that in the beginning.

Lactobacillus does not add a milk/cheese flavor in my experience. And I don't believe I've ever heard anyone else describe Lacto that way, and its not a descriptor used in any BJCP style descriptions for lacto beers, unless I'm overlooking it.

 

[klowneyy]

Lactobacillus does not add a milk/cheese flavor in my experience. And I don't believe I've ever heard anyone else describe Lacto that way, and its not a descriptor used in any BJCP style descriptions for lacto beers, unless I'm overlooking it.

I've had them they are fantastic on a homebrew level and mass production level. One of my favorites is from epic ales in Seattle that makes a miso tart that I've tried rebrewing and came out with a still pretty good beer. It starts off tasting like miso soup and a slight cheese after taste by the end of the bottle all I am getting is a funky blue cheese taste this is the only huge production one I can think of right now and unfortunately they closed down on 9/11 of this month. But they are simply amazing!

If people want to test this out simply buy omega yeast labs OYL-605 and use it and will get a nice pineapple note. From the cultures they use

 

[passedpawn]

I've had them they are fantastic on a homebrew level and mass production level. One of my favorites is from epic ales in Seattle that makes a miso tart that I've tried rebrewing and came out with a still pretty good beer. It starts off tasting like miso soup and a slight cheese after taste by the end of the bottle all I am getting is a funky blue cheese taste this is the only huge production one I can think of right now and unfortunately they closed down on 9/11 of this month. But they are simply amazing!

If people want to test this out simply buy omega yeast labs OYL-605 and use it and will get a nice pineapple note. From the cultures they use

I'm starting to suspect you have penicillium roqueforti infections I make cheese, including blue cheese. That stuff gets airborne really easily. It's the same blue mold you get on bread in your cabinet, so it's everywhere. It's very active at low pH (my blue cheese is quite acidic). I have no idea what its tolerance to alcohol is, and it certainly requires O2 to grow, so I'm sorta kidding... or am I

 

[klowneyy]

I'll consider that but I'm rather sure its not since we have people test daily for any yeast,bacteria that we dont want in our brew house. I only get them in my desired beers that I'm looking for those flavors.

 

[Wargoul]

Just wondering, is there a specific reason you had T-58 for the yeast in this recipe? The description notes a peppery flavour profile. Not sure if that would be something I am looking for.

Does anyone have any experience with WYEAST German Ale - 1007 in this beer?

Thanks for the recipe, been looking for something like this.

 

[bovineblitz]

Just wondering, is there a specific reason you had T-58 for the yeast in this recipe? The description notes a peppery flavour profile. Not sure if that would be something I am looking for.

Does anyone have any experience with WYEAST German Ale - 1007 in this beer?

Thanks for the recipe, been looking for something like this.

Good question, it's for the spicy notes. It doesn't go too crazy in this beer, never seen it kick out banana for instance... probably because the gravity is pretty low. I think of it as a good belgian pale/wheat yeast that sucks at floccing, and a little of that character works well here.

German ale yeast is perfect, I haven't done it but it's probably the most style-appropriate yeast. The past few times I've used a clean cali strain, good results.

 

[Wargoul]

Good question, it's for the spicy notes. It doesn't go too crazy in this beer, never seen it kick out banana for instance... probably because the gravity is pretty low. I think of it as a good belgian pale/wheat yeast that sucks at floccing, and a little of that character works well here.

German ale yeast is perfect, I haven't done it but it's probably the most style-appropriate yeast. The past few times I've used a clean cali strain, good results.

Thanks for the reply. I'll try this out with the Wyeast 1007 and report back when it's all done.

 

[BNolt17]

Brewed this yesterday following the original recipe. My efficiency is 75% so OG came in at 1.051. Debating adding some lemon or lime zest after primary fermentation. Bubbling strong 11 hours after pitching at 67deg. Brewing for a beer and wine festival in late February, anxious to see how it turns out.

 

[BNolt17]

Just bottled mine. I added the zest of 2 lemons, soaked in vodka for 3 days to primary about a week ago. I was debating adding raspberries but they are out of season and super expensive right now. Maybe in the summer for a good lawnmower beer. FG was 1.016 and came out to about 4.5% ABV. Slightly tart and a little salty. Bottled to 2.8 vols and added 2.5mL of Lactic Acid. Festival is 20 days away, hopefully it will go over well.

 

[bovineblitz]

Just bottled mine. I added the zest of 2 lemons, soaked in vodka for 3 days to primary about a week ago. I was debating adding raspberries but they are out of season and super expensive right now. Maybe in the summer for a good lawnmower beer. FG was 1.016 and came out to about 4.5% ABV. Slightly tart and a little salty. Bottled to 2.8 vols and added 2.5mL of Lactic Acid. Festival is 20 days away, hopefully it will go over well.

Sounds good, I be the lemon is gonna be great. If berliner is the 'lemonade of beer', gose is the gatorade!

 

[terrenum]

Did anyone tried a similar grain bill but using aroma hops to add more complex flavour?
or anyone tried to do a sour Pale Ale but using acid malt and a bit of lactic acid at bottling instead of sourmash technique?
thanks for your input.
PLanning to brew this beer or something along this way; may changed few spices, add star anise, lemongrass or something else
thanks for your input

 

[Beeru]

I'm trying out this recipe for the maiden voyage of my new grain father. So far the pre-boil gravity is 1.05, so it looks like it has a pretty good efficiency. Will check back to let you know how it all works out.