Samuel Smiths Organic Chocolate stout clone request

[BasementLurker]

So, here was my 2nd attempt at this stout and the recipe I made for it:

10 lbs - 2 Row
1 lb - Caramel 60
.5 lbs - Caramel 120
1 lb - Chocolate Malt
.5 lbs - Flaked Oats

.75 oz - Cascade hops - 60 min
.25 oz - Cascade hops - 10 min
4 oz - bakers chocolate, 70% - 10 min

90 minute mash at 152F follow by sparge. Sparged to a total of 5.5 gallons.

Safale US-05 Ale Yeast

OG: 1.071 est at 75% ME
FG: 1.025 first attempt (4 oz of bakers chocolate in boil). 2nd attempt: 1.030 (with 8 oz of bakers chocolate in boil)

I did something similar to this. I did a 6 gallon batch of:
9.5 lbs Maris Otter
1 lb English Chocolate
1 lb English Medium
0.5 lb Crystal 120
0.25 lb Chocolate Wheat
0.25 lb Roasted Barley

0.75 oz Nugget @ 13.8% AA

8 oz of Ghirardelli dark chocolate cocoa powder in the boil

I intended to mash at 152, but had a real hard time keeping temps up in my cooler because I was brewing outside and it was below freezing. It fluctuated between 150-151 for the majority of the mash. My mash efficiency was 81%, and my FG measured 1.017.

It turned out decent, but I also won't bother with boiling the cocoa powder next time although for a different reason. I could be wrong, but after cold crashing, I believe that any cocoa that was in solution dropped out. The chocolate flavor was more present when the beer was less clear. This was true regardless of temp. Maybe it's just my perception. My concern with adding it to the secondary is that it won't impart much flavor and sit at the bottom of the fermenter. I will try nibs either by adding directly to the secondary or making my own extract.

I will also make a change to the bittering hops. BeerSmith calculated 32 IBUs which ended up being a little high for my taste. I will drop the bittering addition to 0.6 oz or maybe even 0.5 oz the next time I attempt this.

 

[Roadie]

Still no luck finding a recipe for this. This beer is by far my favorite chocolate stout. I've yet to find a store bought beer nor have made one as good as theirs. If anyone has any idea how they get the flavors they do, please get back to me.

I've made a couple chocolate stouts since but gave up on trying to replicate this beer and haven't heard of anyone who has been able to do it.

 

[BasementLurker]

I just popped open a bottle of Sam Smith's Chocolate Stout, and I am pretty sure there is some special b in there as well as some vanilla. I am going to rebrew next time I get a chance and add some special b in place of the crystal 120. My memory of this beer was over-exaggerating the chocolate flavor. The chocolate flavor is easily strong enough as is in a direct comparison between the two. I also think the vanilla adds to the perception of sweetness that you normally get from the lactose in a milk stout.

 

[waverz]

I just popped open a bottle of Sam Smith's Chocolate Stout, and I am pretty sure there is some special b in there as well as some vanilla. I am going to rebrew next time I get a chance and add some special b in place of the crystal 120. My memory of this beer was over-exaggerating the chocolate flavor. The chocolate flavor is easily strong enough as is in a direct comparison between the two. I also think the vanilla adds to the perception of sweetness that you normally get from the lactose in a milk stout.

Let us know how it turns out. If you can get anything remotely close it will be an awesome brew.

 

[McKnuckle]

OG is 1.059, ABV is 5%, so FG is about 1.021. IBUs are at 28.

At least that's what the U.S. distributor, Merchant du Vin, tells us.

They also offer:

Ingredients: Water, organic barley malt, organic cane sugar, organic hops, organic cocoa, yeast.

If you compare this to the oatmeal stout and trust them to list the ingredients accurately, then the chocolate has no roasted barley or oats. Here's the oatmeal stout listing:

Ingredients: Water, barley malt, roasted barley, oats, hops, cane sugar, yeast.

So I'm going to try to brew this using chocolate malt (Briess organic) and crystal 80 for the dark malts, plus a quality pale base malt (Golden Promise). I bought expensive Theobroma cacao extract to use in secondary prior to bottling. I think they probably don't mess around with powder or boil additions. I also got a vial of the supposed Sam Smith yeast, WLP037 Yorkshire Square.

I have no clue if I'm on the right track, but the wife and I just tried this beer and went gaga over it. So I'm on a fool's errand... Er, I mean quest!

 

[waverz]

I just popped open a bottle of Sam Smith's Chocolate Stout, and I am pretty sure there is some special b in there as well as some vanilla. I am going to rebrew next time I get a chance and add some special b in place of the crystal 120. My memory of this beer was over-exaggerating the chocolate flavor. The chocolate flavor is easily strong enough as is in a direct comparison between the two. I also think the vanilla adds to the perception of sweetness that you normally get from the lactose in a milk stout.

Let us know how it turns out. If you can get anything remotely close it will be an awesome brew.

 

[McKnuckle]

I am brewing today. Here's my v1.0 attempt at a 2.5 gallon (ending kettle) batch:

Grain
4.5 lbs or 80% Fawcett (UK) Golden Promise
8 oz or 8.9% UK Crystal 80
8 oz or 8.9% Briess organic chocolate
2 oz or 2.2% UK roasted barley (Despite my post above, this seemed small enough to not be a worry)

Hops
UK Goldings leaf @ 5.9% AA
12g @ 60 for 18.3 IBU
9g @ 30 for 10.5 IBU
Total 28.8 IBU

Water
Ca 75
Mg 10
Na 20
Cl 100
SO4 90
HCO3 35

Mash/Boil
Mash pH target 5.32
60 minutes @ 154F
Boil 60 minutes
Target OG = 1.059 (73% pre-boil efficiency)

Ferment
65-68F
White Labs WLP037 Yorkshire Square
Theodroma cacao extract ?? drops/gallon in secondary prior to bottling

 

[BasementLurker]

OG is 1.059, ABV is 5%, so FG is about 1.021. IBUs are at 28.

At least that's what the U.S. distributor, Merchant du Vin, tells us.

They also offer:

Ingredients: Water, organic barley malt, organic cane sugar, organic hops, organic cocoa, yeast.

If you compare this to the oatmeal stout and trust them to list the ingredients accurately, then the chocolate has no roasted barley or oats. Here's the oatmeal stout listing:

Ingredients: Water, barley malt, roasted barley, oats, hops, cane sugar, yeast.

So I'm going to try to brew this using chocolate malt (Briess organic) and crystal 80 for the dark malts, plus a quality pale base malt (Golden Promise). I bought expensive Theobroma cacao extract to use in secondary prior to bottling. I think they probably don't mess around with powder or boil additions. I also got a vial of the supposed Sam Smith yeast, WLP037 Yorkshire Square.

I have no clue if I'm on the right track, but the wife and I just tried this beer and went gaga over it. So I'm on a fool's errand... Er, I mean quest!

I like where you are going with this, but I would seriously consider going with special b either in addition to the crystal 80 or in place of the crystal 80. Here is the description for Dingemann's Special B:

It imparts a heavy, dark caramel taste with more subtle notes of burnt sugar, raisin, and dark dried fruits such as cherries and plums. It can also deliver some of the softer roasty notes of a chocolate or black malt but without the astringency or bitterness. Special B® will produce a deep brown color with ruddy highlights and add body and foam stability like all caramel malts.

I don't know about you, but I taste all of those flavors in the Sam Smith version, and there is also a reddish hue to the dark brown color. I also taste what I perceive as vanilla. I know they don't list that ingredient. Whether they use vanilla or not, there is an ingredient that is contributing to that flavor. Maybe it's just the overall sweetness of the beer that is making me think of that flavor. I am curious what others think.

The other thing to consider is how they are using the "organic cane sugar". Are they using it to back sweeten? That seems likely to me.

Here is the recipe I will be brewing next:

6 gallon batch
77% efficiency

8.75 lbs Golden Promise
1 lb Chocolate Malt
1 lb Special B
0.5 lb English Medium Crystal
0.25 lb De-Bittered Black Malt
0.25 lb Cane Sugar

0.6 oz of Nugget @ 13.8% AA

WLP037 Yeast

According to BeerSmith that gives me an OG of 1.059. If I back sweeten with the cane sugar and mash at 156, that leaves me with an FG of 1.021. BeerSmith calculates 28 IBUs and 39 SRM.

I then plan to add flavorings according to taste. I may add vanilla, and I may add chocolate.

 

[McKnuckle]

About Special B, I know - I saw your earlier post but I had already put together and received my ingredients. So I'm going with it as stated for v1.0. But I absolutely hear you and think you might be on to something. I thought my bill was relatively simple, and while it might not get there exactly, it might offer the chance to reflect on what's missing in order to refine it for next time.

I read that the Organic Chocolate Stout was released in 2012 after "months of test batches." They clearly worked on it! So I imagine we'll have to as well. The vanilla flavor you are perceiving might actually be a very pure chocolate taste from the extract, whereas others who are attempting this are using block chocolate or powder, and are not getting the right flavor. At least that's my theory and why I bought liquid extract to use for this recipe.

My wife procured about 8 bottles of the real thing the other day. I am going to consider the act of drinking it - slowly and with great deliberation - to be research.

 

[waverz]

It makes me happy knowing people are working on this.

 

[McKnuckle]

8.75 lbs Golden Promise
1 lb Chocolate Malt
1 lb Special B
0.5 lb English Medium Crystal
0.25 lb De-Bittered Black Malt
0.25 lb Cane Sugar

Cool. So if I understand your thinking, you are keeping some crystal, but standing in more Special B for its flavor characteristics. Then for color you're including De-bittered black instead of roasted barley. Good idea.

I also raised an eyebrow at the cane sugar. They list it for the oatmeal stout too, but interestingly its position in the ingredient list is different. If they're following convention, ingredients are listed from "most" to "least." So for the oatmeal stout, perhaps it's used for priming only, but it has a more prominent use in the chocolate product. It could be for sweetening, but...

...If you read some of the historical UK recipes, they use invert sugar at different degrees of caramelization and color (#1, #2, #3). It could also be that the cane sugar is used for that. Dunno.

I beat my target pre-boil gravity by a point; it's 1.044 on the way to (hopefully) 1.059. This is going to be interesting!

 

[Nebbs]

I am thinking that SS may use some sort of extract for the Theobroma cacao. I taste a slight hint of vanilla as well.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0093B8AO0/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

This extract says "lyrical vanilla-in-wine top notes" in the description. I think the fruity taste may partially come from the extract as well and from the yeast. I think we're getting closer guys.

 

[McKnuckle]

Yes, I bought a product from Hawaii that is very similar - also in a tiny jar with a medicine dropper cap.

I overshot my gravity a bit today but not more than 0.5% ABV worth, given the same attenuation. Otherwise, it was a good brew day. The quest begins! (For me anyway)

 

[BasementLurker]

I read that the Organic Chocolate Stout was released in 2012 after "months of test batches." They clearly worked on it! So I imagine we'll have to as well. The vanilla flavor you are perceiving might actually be a very pure chocolate taste from the extract, whereas others who are attempting this are using block chocolate or powder, and are not getting the right flavor. At least that's my theory and why I bought liquid extract to use for this recipe.

My wife procured about 8 bottles of the real thing the other day. I am going to consider the act of drinking it - slowly and with great deliberation - to be research.

I have some Chocolate extract as well, but nowhere near the cost of the Theobrama stuff Nebbs linked to. I paid about $12 for an 8 oz bottle. Based on the testing I have done I can get about 3 batches from an 8 oz bottle. The chocolate flavor from it is good, but it doesn't produce any vanilla notes. Hopefully your Theobrama extract will do the trick.

That was nice of your wife to pick up all those bottles, but it sounds like she has a strong interest in your success.

 

[McKnuckle]

I ended up with about 2.75 gallons. I overshot my gravity AND didn't boil off as much as I expected to, ending up somewhere in the middle at 1.062 OG. IBU calculation drops to about 25 instead of 28. Bums me out a little, but I doubt these will matter in the big picture.

My plan is to eventually rack to two gallon secondary jugs and conduct cacao extract additions there, and bottle the small remainder without any chocolate just for a baseline of what the stout recipe tastes like.

Thanks for the estimate on the extract ratio. The entire bottle I have is only 2 oz! If I follow your ratio, it comes to 0.5 oz per gallon. Luckily I'll have enough.

 

[BasementLurker]

I ended up with about 2.75 gallons. I overshot my gravity AND didn't boil off as much as I expected to, ending up somewhere in the middle at 1.062 OG. IBU calculation drops to about 25 instead of 28. Bums me out a little, but I doubt these will matter in the big picture.

My plan is to eventually rack to two gallon secondary jugs and conduct cacao extract additions there, and bottle the small remainder without any chocolate just for a baseline of what the stout recipe tastes like.

Thanks for the estimate on the extract ratio. The entire bottle I have is only 2 oz! If I follow your ratio, it comes to 0.5 oz per gallon. Luckily I'll have enough.

I was a little shy of 2.5 oz. I measured in milliliters, since I was adding extract to growlers. I used about 6 ml in a 64 oz growler, so about 12 ml per gallon or about 0.4 oz. I wonder if your extract is more concentrated than mine considering the small size and the dropper. You might want to consider doing 6 ml per gallon to start, take a small sample, and go up from there if necessary. It's probably easier to add more rather than trying to dilute if you end up too high. I did go as high as 12 ml per 64 oz growler, and it was way too overpowering. It started to taste medicinal.

 

[McKnuckle]

Just an update, nothing too Earth shattering. One week into fermentation, we've gone from 1.062 down to 1.025. Lots of sulphur odor during ferm, which took place at 65-66F. I just moved the carboy into a 70F space.

Tasted the hydrometer sample, and eesh... Kinda sour. I googled WLP037 and found quite a lot of people who experienced weird behavior and not so nice flavors from this yeast. For example, this thread.

Not super confident on attempt #1 as a result, but we shall see. Caveat emptor.

 

[Roadie]

Just an update, nothing too Earth shattering. One week into fermentation, we've gone from 1.062 down to 1.025. Lots of sulphur odor during ferm, which took place at 65-66F. I just moved the carboy into a 70F space.

Tasted the hydrometer sample, and eesh... Kinda sour. I googled WLP037 and found quite a lot of people who experienced weird behavior and not so nice flavors from this yeast. For example, this thread.

Not super confident on attempt #1 as a result, but we shall see. Caveat emptor.

Keep chipping away at it. If you can get close to the taste of the SS you'll be the first person I've heard of to do so.

 

[McKnuckle]

Nearing 2 weeks into primary, and I regret to say that my first attempt may become my first ever dumper. The Yorkshire WLP037 yeast is terrible - TERRIBLE - it has produced a sour, winey brew that is either infected with something or is just plain awful. As I said, one can Google this and find others who've had similar experiences.

From here on out, I move to 1 gallon test batches!

And so it shall commence... I'm going to add Special B to the mix per the above suggestion, and try something like this:

75% Golden Promise
8.3% each:
UK Crystal 80
Briess Organic Chocolate
Special B

Mash @ 154
Boil 60 minutes
Bittering at 60 minutes to 28 IBU with Magnum
SRM 38, OG 1.059
Some kind of British ale yeast with modest attenuation

 

[gwn]

I tried SS at a party and was pleasantly surprised. Their popularity must be increasing because they are sold out at all the Toronto LCBO outlets yesterday.

Keep at it folks. I'm hoping to try using Festa Brew's Double Oatmeal Stout wort as the base.

 

[rocketsan]

I tried SS at a party and was pleasantly surprised. Their popularity must be increasing because they are sold out at all the Toronto LCBO outlets yesterday.

Um, it's been de-listed at the LCBO for a year - but we did get a single bottle of it in the Sam Smith holiday pack this year...

 

[Roadie]

I'd be really surprised if anyone got close on this beer.

 

[gwn]

Um, it's been de-listed at the LCBO for a year - but we did get a single bottle of it in the Sam Smith holiday pack this year...

I called LCBO and the next shipment is scheduled to arrive in Aug. They said I could call the importer to place a personal order but thought it would be expensive.

 

[dsoleil]

I'm excited to see the next results! Thanks for posting...

 

[Movian]

Hey, you guys still working on this?

I am preparing to make my own attempt at something towards this fantastic beer... If I end up with something different but delicious I will be happy but it's defiantly my fav chocolate stout so will be aiming for towards SS

 

[Roadie]

Don't get your hopes up. I have yet to see someone able to replicate this beer.

 

[McKnuckle]

After about 10 months since my last post on this topic, I'm giving it another shot. I believe they achieve the massive chocolate aroma from blending post-boil. So there are two components - one, nailing the base stout profile; and two, getting the chocolate flavor correct.

For the former, I'm going with 84% base UK pale malt, 8% crystal malts, and 8% roasted malts. Mashing high to retain residual sweetness (156F). Aiming for the documented OG of 1.059 and IBU of 28. Color is not documented but I'm going for 37-38 SRM. The Sam Smith product is not opaque. It has a hint of ruby red transparency visible.

The chocolate is the absolute trickiest thing. I've tried adding roasted cocoa nibs to another stout and it added a nice component for sure, but didn't match the Sam Smith aroma. So I'll try to create a chocolate syrup out of organic cocoa and sugar (as documented in the ingredients) that smells like the basic Sam Smith aroma. Then I'll blend that in during fermentation.

There are no oats or lactose in the recipe, otherwise the label would say so. I've studied it many times. The base stout also has a low "roastiness factor" so I am thinking under 10% for sure, although even 8% may prove too high. I'd rather over-do it and scale back the next time, though. I'm using chocolate malt and roasted barley in 50/50 balance for the roasted malts.

 

[rocketsan]

Their chocolate addition has to be artificial. You won't be able to replicate that unless you can find a comparable non-fermentable alternative. I tried sugar free Toriani syrup and it was disgusting.

 

[McKnuckle]

It's not artificial. The ingredients specifically state "organic cocoa." And the label has an image that is captioned theobroma cacao which is the more technical name of the cocoa product.

 

[gwn]

Gents and ladies, my attempt using a base oatmeal stout and adding cocoa nibs, lactose and chocolate essence was pleasant enough but not close. Hope someone cracks the secret.

I was in London in May and Smith's was hard to find.

 

[rocketsan]

It's not artificial. The ingredients specifically state "organic cocoa." And the label has an image that is captioned theobroma cacao which is the more technical name of the cocoa product.

I'm sure organic cocoa is in there... There's also gotta be a chocolate extract addition at bottling. It tastes too artificial.

 

[McKnuckle]

Not to belabor this, since we simply don't know... But if there was another ingredient, it would need to be listed - and it's not. Chocolate extract is not artificial if it comes from cocoa. I know what you mean by using that word, though. It has a weird flavor that has a slight chemical taint to it. But I believe it's just the way things blend in the final beer.

Anyway, after some nibs experiments that I alluded to, I'm convinced they don't use that type of product. I'm going with syrup made from cane sugar and organic dark cocoa powder. Today I made small mini-tasters in espresso cups of four different cocoas that my wife had in her tea cabinet. There were two types of organic powder, and two Hershey products - regular and dark. The dark came the closest, and a 50/50 blend of the two Hersheys was nice too.

I'm going to put a couple of ounces of powder in the mash and then add the syrup during primary.

 

[Newsman]

I'd think you would want to add it just before bottling as otherwise it would tend to fade, wouldn't it? Maybe do both?

 

[librepub]

Interesting that you mention Hersheys - one of the most processed products in the chocolate industry.

Keep in mind that since Samuel Smith is from europe, they are likely using non-pasturized chocolate products which are quite different from what you would find in the US.

And not to beat a horse - but once you get to the scale that Samuel Smith is at - corporate greed ticks in and commercializes / chemicalizes / scientificizes things.

Some of these links may have already been mentioned since this thread is now several years old, but I only skipped to the last page :

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=488401

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=443822

http://www.beertools.com/library/recipe.php?view=11253

http://forum.northernbrewer.com/t/samuel-smiths-organic-chocolate-stout-extract-recipe/3591/3

Actually - you may have posted one or two of the inquiries on the other websites, lol - but I hope your quest goes well!

fwiw - I would take a Youngs Double Chocolate Stout any day of the week over anything made by Samuel Smith

 

[Movian]

fwiw - I would take a Youngs Double Chocolate Stout any day of the week over anything made by Samuel Smith

Youngs is good but it lacks that pure chocolaty quality that Samual Smiths has....

personally I like both but for different situations, If I want a good session stout I would pick the youngs... If I want a single "desert" or evening beer I would drink a samual smiths

I may finally have some funds for a new brew so will try a few things based on suggestions and testing some of you have done here will post my test recipe here soon.

 

[McKnuckle]

First, I should be clear and point out that I'm quite aware of Hershey's being NOT the product used by Sam's.

They are British, not American, and they use organic cocoa. I purchased organic cacao powder and nibs last year in my first run of attempts to clone this beer. I failed to hit the mark, so this time I went strictly by taste to find something we had in our house that was close to the chocolate flavor.

I like Young's too, but Sam's has a chocolate aroma and flavor that is almost over-whelming (perhaps a bit too much even). So that's my target. I'm sure I'll miss it again, but hopefully might come closer to brewing my own great chocolate stout!

P.S. This is the Hershey's product - it only has two ingredients (not highly processed).

 

[McKnuckle]

I'd think you would want to add it just before bottling as otherwise it would tend to fade, wouldn't it? Maybe do both?

You may be right, so I'm adding it at several stages, using taste tests as a guide. I started with a 1/2 cup of powder in the mash. Then I made a syrup (2:1:1 parts sugar, cocoa, water) and added it to the primary before pitching.

That is currently bubbling now. I'll determine if any additions need to be made from this point forward based on taste and aroma. I also have the roasted nibs option for secondary in my back pocket.

 

[jimyson]

Would be interesting to see this evolve. A friend just picked up a bottle of this and it sparked my interest in finding a good chocolate stout recipe. I really like SS Oatmeal.

 

[McKnuckle]

More helpful info from the brewery website itself, after some research today (italics mine):

"All Samuel Smith’s beers are brewed solely from authentic natural ingredients without any chemical additives, raw material adjuncts, artificial sweeteners, colourings, flavourings or preservatives.

All Samuel Smith’s beers and ciders are suitable for a vegan diet (except cask conditioned Old Brewery Bitter and bottled Yorkshire Stingo)."

Note - this means that no lactose is used for residual sweetness. Somehow they get 1.059 OG to finish at 1.021 FG (5% ABV) without it!

 

[librepub]

First, I should be clear and point out that I'm quite aware of Hershey's being NOT the product used by Sam's.

They are British, not American, and they use organic cocoa. I purchased organic cacao powder and nibs last year in my first run of attempts to clone this beer. I failed to hit the mark, so this time I went strictly by taste to find something we had in our house that was close to the chocolate flavor.

I like Young's too, but Sam's has a chocolate aroma and flavor that is almost over-whelming (perhaps a bit too much even). So that's my target. I'm sure I'll miss it again, but hopefully might come closer to brewing my own great chocolate stout!

P.S. This is the Hershey's product - it only has two ingredients (not highly processed).

I was dumb enough to think you were melting down chocolate bars and experimenting. Haha, okay - sorry about that. But even still, Hersheys globally sources the cocoa, and then they blend it with alkali for taste, stability, filler. You would literally have a better chance going to your locally owned chocolate shops and finding out who your "go to" source is for local, organic chocolate.

As for your experimentation, and your cocoa - I would focus on making the best chocolatey stout you possibly can just with the proper malt mix. Wait until after fermentation and then bring your final product down to about 45 degrees - take out about 20 ounces, divide into 10 separate snifters experiment with cocoa and salt in those snifters. When you get a balance that you really like, convert the quantity for whatever your batch size is, add to final product.