Sam Calagione on "Beer Geeks"

[cadarnell]

I'm pretty sure that you are not getting his point. His point is that there is a market for everything. His company is not going to change their mission statement just to accommodate the majority. They are doing what they love, and there are people that enjoy it.

and he, just like most of the great folks who posted in this thread, went off the subject of the thread.

We all know that thread was about value ... getting what you pay for, and the "hype" being somewhat equal to what you paid for. He never even addressed that at all .. I understand digressing, but at least start on point.

Instead, he put down the BA community for basically giving an opinion on something. (An opinion that many of them had spent hundreds of dollars to have mind you) And that's kinda what they do over there ... He put down a lot of folks on there who take their time to talk about beer. Pretty petty if you ask me. I mean we all have a few beers now and then and talk about stuff in a pretty loose way ... he knows this. He should have just listened and learned IMO.

this thread was supposed to be about a man in his position, commenting in a negative way, in an online discussion between very passionate buyers of the product he sells. Instead it is mostly about the subject matter of his post ... but that's OK I guess .. it is some pretty good subject matter .. cheers man !!

 

[Wolfhound180]

and he, just like most of the great folks who posted in this thread, went off the subject of the thread.

We all know that thread was about value ... getting what you pay for, and the "hype" being somewhat equal to what you paid for. He never even addressed that at all .. I understand digressing, but at least start on point.

Instead, he put down the BA community for basically giving an opinion on something. (An opinion that many of them had spent hundreds of dollars to have mind you) And that's kinda what they do over there ... He put down a lot of folks on there who take their time to talk about beer. Pretty petty if you ask me. I mean we all have a few beers now and then and talk about stuff in a pretty loose way ... he knows this. He should have just listened and learned IMO.

this thread was supposed to be about a man in his position, commenting in a negative way, in an online discussion between very passionate buyers of the product he sells. Instead it is mostly about the subject matter of his post ... but that's OK I guess .. it is some pretty good subject matter .. cheers man !!

Yes it is very good subject matter. But is someone in his position not allowed to have an opinion? I realize that he should not put anyone down from a business standpoint and in all reality didn't. He is asking everyone to check themselves. At what point will a beer snob be happy? They are only happy when putting others down. Why not accept beer in all of its forms?
If DFH is expensive in your area, it is the stores fault. I buy DFH for the state minimum in Ohio because that's how they ( the store) does things. That's $8 for a 750ml. It's not DFH's fault. The price is what it is in your area because that is what people are willing to pay.

 

[cadarnell]

Yes it is very good subject matter. But is someone in his position not allowed to have an opinion? I realize that he should not put anyone down from a business standpoint and in all reality didn't. He is asking everyone to check themselves. At what point will a beer snob be happy? They are only happy when putting others down. Why not accept beer in all of its forms?
If DFH is expensive in your area, it is the stores fault. I buy DFH for the state minimum in Ohio because that's how they ( the store) does things. That's $8 for a 750ml. It's not DFH's fault. The price is what it is in your area because that is what people are willing to pay.

Yes someone in his position is allowed to have an opinion ... it's just not good business to give it there IMO ... but if he is going to have a seat at one of our virtual bars he needs to at least be nice.

He had a great chance to thank eveyone in that thread for their support ... and he could have thanked eveyone for there opinions, good and bad, of DFH ... instead he, as many have called it, put them in their place. Once again .. just very petty if you ask me.

My state, Indiana, isn't serviced by DFH ... I am kinda wanting to try a 60 minute now though, with all this talk about them .. maybe soon .. I do love beer

 

[teal]

Why not accept beer in all of its forms?

Because not all beer is good (to me) and why should I be forced to accept crap (to me)? I beer based on what's IN the bottle, not who is ON the bottle.

Some people hate the idea of being told a beer/brewery is "revolutionary" to the point of "must try" only to pony up good money for their wares to absolutely hate it or to realize that what they bought isn't worth the price difference over what they've been drinking. People don't like to feel duped and thus they tend to vent. Right or wrong - that's life and that's life in a lot of industries.

I respect Sam for being his own man, making his own brand and going his own way. I'm not as impressed as some about how he "tries new things" but that's me and for my own reasons. I'm not going to crusade to change other people's minds. Yes I've read his books. Sam's a very good business man, adept at marketing and advertising. You saw it in Brewmasters and I see it in that post.

In that one post he's getting talked about and given what I've seen here and elsewhere, being raised in higher esteem for the stand he took. He also took the time to advertise/market some new brews he has coming out at the same time. So while he was smacking down the great unwashed hordes of BA people, he was also pushing product to those who would read/pass along what was said. Pretty much exactly how it's happened. Sam knows exactly where he stands in the industry and just what affect he has on certain aspects of it. That post wasn't fired off without thought from his kitchen table.

The rant/post needed to be said and he said it but it was also a business move.

In the end craft breweries will succeed or fail based upon their product or based upon their business model (debt being an elephant in the room for most I'd think). While places like BA might seem huge or be negative - the beer buying public is HUGE and much larger than that - good product, sound fundamentals and vision will win over some electrons on BA.

Support the ones you like, argue the merits of what you TASTE - we all have to determine on our own if what we TASTE is worth the cash hole in the wallet. For more and more people - it isn't.

I know more and more home brewers who get into it due to the cost of craft beer, not the hate of BMC beer. That's telling on some levels. Love the taste but if I, as someone who is only buying a few hundred pounds of grain can make the same flavor at home for less - how is it with their economy of scale that they can't? That's the conversation I'm hearing more often and I think it's also where some of the "over hyped/over priced" discussion comes from.

 

[cadarnell]

Because not all beer is good (to me) and why should I be forced to accept crap (to me)? I beer based on what's IN the bottle, not who is ON the bottle.

Some people hate the idea of being told a beer/brewery is "revolutionary" to the point of "must try" only to pony up good money for their wares to absolutely hate it or to realize that what they bought isn't worth the price difference over what they've been drinking. People don't like to feel duped and thus they tend to vent. Right or wrong - that's life and that's life in a lot of industries.

I respect Sam for being his own man, making his own brand and going his own way. I'm not as impressed as some about how he "tries new things" but that's me and for my own reasons. I'm not going to crusade to change other people's minds. Yes I've read his books. Sam's a very good business man, adept at marketing and advertising. You saw it in Brewmasters and I see it in that post.

In that one post he's getting talked about and given what I've seen here and elsewhere, being raised in higher esteem for the stand he took. He also took the time to advertise/market some new brews he has coming out at the same time. So while he was smacking down the great unwashed hordes of BA people, he was also pushing product to those who would read/pass along what was said. Pretty much exactly how it's happened. Sam knows exactly where he stands in the industry and just what affect he has on certain aspects of it. That post wasn't fired off without thought from his kitchen table.

The rant/post needed to be said and he said it but it was also a business move.

In the end craft breweries will succeed or fail based upon their product or based upon their business model (debt being an elephant in the room for most I'd think). While places like BA might seem huge or be negative - the beer buying public is HUGE and much larger than that - good product, sound fundamentals and vision will win over some electrons on BA.

Support the ones you like, argue the merits of what you TASTE - we all have to determine on our own if what we TASTE is worth the cash hole in the wallet. For more and more people - it isn't.

I know more and more home brewers who get into it due to the cost of craft beer, not the hate of BMC beer. That's telling on some levels. Love the taste but if I, as someone who is only buying a few hundred pounds of grain can make the same flavor at home for less - how is it with their economy of scale that they can't? That's the conversation I'm hearing more often and I think it's also where some of the "over hyped/over priced" discussion comes from.

great post ... very well said ... but so I am clear ... you do agree he was smaking some poeple down, who probably paid good money to have an opinon about, DFH? You even called them "unwashed" ... by which I think you meant "less than" the likes of sam calagione .... And, you are okay with it from a business standpoint?

 

[Wolfhound180]

Because not all beer is good (to me) and why should I be forced to accept crap (to me)? I beer based on what's IN the bottle, not who is ON the bottle.

Some people hate the idea of being told a beer/brewery is "revolutionary" to the point of "must try" only to pony up good money for their wares to absolutely hate it or to realize that what they bought isn't worth the price difference over what they've been drinking. People don't like to feel duped and thus they tend to vent. Right or wrong - that's life and that's life in a lot of industries.

I respect Sam for being his own man, making his own brand and going his own way. I'm not as impressed as some about how he "tries new things" but that's me and for my own reasons. I'm not going to crusade to change other people's minds. Yes I've read his books. Sam's a very good business man, adept at marketing and advertising. You saw it in Brewmasters and I see it in that post.

In that one post he's getting talked about and given what I've seen here and elsewhere, being raised in higher esteem for the stand he took. He also took the time to advertise/market some new brews he has coming out at the same time. So while he was smacking down the great unwashed hordes of BA people, he was also pushing product to those who would read/pass along what was said. Pretty much exactly how it's happened. Sam knows exactly where he stands in the industry and just what affect he has on certain aspects of it. That post wasn't fired off without thought from his kitchen table.

The rant/post needed to be said and he said it but it was also a business move.

In the end craft breweries will succeed or fail based upon their product or based upon their business model (debt being an elephant in the room for most I'd think). While places like BA might seem huge or be negative - the beer buying public is HUGE and much larger than that - good product, sound fundamentals and vision will win over some electrons on BA.

Support the ones you like, argue the merits of what you TASTE - we all have to determine on our own if what we TASTE is worth the cash hole in the wallet. For more and more people - it isn't.

I know more and more home brewers who get into it due to the cost of craft beer, not the hate of BMC beer. That's telling on some levels. Love the taste but if I, as someone who is only buying a few hundred pounds of grain can make the same flavor at home for less - how is it with their economy of scale that they can't? That's the conversation I'm hearing more often and I think it's also where some of the "over hyped/over priced" discussion comes from.

So if you were making 10-15% alcohol beer, what would it cost you a 750ml? 750ml = ~25oz. 4-5 dollars a bottle? Isn't it fair for DFH to charge twice that? Think about it. I could go to a nice steak house and pay $45 for a prime steak a la cart. I could buy that same steak and cook it at home for $15. Isn't that the point? Of course you could try to duplicate it for cheaper at home, but why not pay a little more and buy something tried and true?

I agree that Sam put some efficient business spin in the argument. It's expected.

Again, DFH isn't charging these outrageous prices, your stores are. Don't put all of the price blame on them.

 

[cadarnell]

Again, DFH isn't charging these outrageous prices, your stores are. Don't put all of the price blame on them.

maybe I don't understand beer ... I sell carpet ... and the price I charge is directly related to how much I have to pay for it ... is beer different? ... maybe there are some laws about pricing like cigaretts have???

 

[teal]

great post ... very well said ... but so I am clear ... you do agree he was smaking some poeple down, who probably paid good money to have an opinon about, DFH? You even called them "unwashed" ... by which I think you meant "less than" the likes of sam calagione .... And, you are okay with it from a business standpoint?

No - my sarcasm didn't come thru all that well on the "unwashed masses" part. (sounded better in my head)

I hate the idea that if you disagree with a person in Sam's position that you're instantly jealous that he makes beer all day and you don't. I think that was part of it. I mean, who am I to disagree with a "pro-brewer"? That mentality kills me.

In the end, I pays for my drinks, Sam pays for his (to an extent) and you all pay for yours. All we really have to do is make ourselves happy - secret to life really....

 

[cadarnell]

No - my sarcasm didn't come thru all that well on the "unwashed masses" part. (sounded better in my head)

I hate the idea that if you disagree with a person in Sam's position that you're instantly jealous that he makes beer all day and you don't. I think that was part of it. I mean, who am I to disagree with a "pro-brewer"? That mentality kills me.

In the end, I pays for my drinks, Sam pays for his (to an extent) and you all pay for yours. All we really have to do is make ourselves happy - secret to life really....

haha .. that's cool ... I like you teal ... not the color though .. but you, I do ... cheers !! ...

 

[teal]

I could go to a nice steak house and pay $45 for a prime steak a la cart. I could buy that same steak and cook it at home for $15. Isn't that the point? Of course you could try to duplicate it for cheaper at home, but why not pay a little more and buy something tried and true?

Yeah - I could pay 45 dollars at the steakhouse but when I do spend only 15 bucks at home and it's JUST AS GOOD if not BETTER in many instances and it is about 19 times out of 20- it's not hard to understand why I'd say that particular steak house is overpriced/over hyped and NOT find much value in that particular steak house. I wouldn't go. I don't care who recommends it to me as "the place to eat".

I don't begrudge what Sam, Rogue, New Belgium, New Glarus etc charge for beer - if they want to, great but don't tell me I MUST accept that price for my drinking pleasure. It's a choice - I can drink a beer at X dollars or another at Y dollars. If I happen to enjoy beer X at a level that that's greater than what I spent - great. If not - I'll not drink it.

My girlfriend's uncle owned a liquor/beer store in a large metropolitan area. He's a beer geek - does NOT drink BMC. Very successful - has vacation homes on lakes etc. His mark up on BMC products was 33%, craft beer? 36% - that's where the numbers lay. Compare those 6 pack prices again....

Again - this is just me - but DFH could be 50 cents a bottle and I'd not drink it, I don't care for his beers. Doesn't mean I don't care for him. I can make that distinction, some can't. That's their short coming, not Sam's.

 

[trent]

Sam rules. He is totally in the right. Cheers for him and best to DFH.

 

[Wolfhound180]

maybe I don't understand beer ... I sell carpet ... and the price I charge is directly related to how much I have to pay for it ... is beer different? ... maybe there are some laws about pricing like cigaretts have???

Maybe you don't. The basis for this whole argument was that people were sick of paying $15 for a bomber of DFH. I don't pay that. So am I stealing it from Sam himself? Doubtful. Find a cheaper carpet store.

 

[Wolfhound180]

Yeah - I could pay 45 dollars at the steakhouse but when I do spend only 15 bucks at home and it's JUST AS GOOD if not BETTER in many instances and it is about 19 times out of 20- it's not hard to understand why I'd say that particular steak house is overpriced/over hyped and NOT find much value in that particular steak house. I wouldn't go. I don't care who recommends it to me as "the place to eat".

I don't begrudge what Sam, Rogue, New Belgium, New Glarus etc charge for beer - if they want to, great but don't tell me I MUST accept that.

My girlfriend's uncle owned a liquor/beer store in a large metropolitan area. He's a beer geek - does NOT drink BMC. Very successful - has vacation homes on lakes etc. His mark up on BMC products was 33%, craft beer? 36% - that's where the numbers lay. Compare those 6 pack prices again....

Again - this is just me - but DFH could be 50 cents a bottle and I'd not drink it, I don't care for his beers. Doesn't mean I don't care for him. I can make that distinction, some can't. That's their short coming, not Sam's.

You keep referencing somebody forcing you to accept something. Nobody is forcing anything. The whole idea is that people will produce what they want to. If someone buys it, then it keeps the business going. Im not making you drink DFH. I don't like a lot of their stuff myself. But there is no reason to bust them up. I could spend weeks telling you about all of the beers that I dislike. Does it matter? No.

 

[cadarnell]

Maybe you don't. The basis for this whole argument was that people were sick of paying $15 for a bomber of DFH. I don't pay that. So am I stealing it from Sam himself? Doubtful. Find a cheaper carpet store.

sorry if I hit you the wrong way ... you seemed mad in that last post ... it's all cool ... I was just maybe not understanding how the cost to the retailer din't have a direct effect on the retail price of the product .. it's all good

 

[Wolfhound180]

sorry if I hit you the wrong way ... you seemed mad in that last post ... it's all cool ... I was just maybe not understanding how the cost to the retailer din't have a direct effect on the retail price of the product .. it's all good

No you're fine. You know what you are talking about. But don't try to belittle me by saying that. It does have a direct effect. Now what that retailer marks up, is up to them. Don't try to tell me that there is some universal mark up on all products across the freakin world Jack.

 

[ClarnoBrewer]

sorry if I hit you the wrong way ... you seemed mad in that last post ... it's all cool ... I was just maybe not understanding how the cost to the retailer din't have a direct effect on the retail price of the product .. it's all good

It certainly has an effect, but there's also a lot of flexibility when it comes to the retailer. Think about buying a package of hot dogs at the grocery store vs. buying them at the store at the campground in BFE. I guarantee they'll be almost twice as much in BFE. Retailers charge what their market will bear.

As far as beer, I don't see a lot of price variation when you're close to the source. Here in Oregon, Rogue, Ninkasi, and the hundred other craft beers tend to be fairly close in price, and it doesn't vary much. When I was back in Indiana, some of the same brews were much more expensive. Probably a combination of transport costs and the 'exotic' aspect.


FWIW, I'm enjoying this conversation. It's brought up some interesting perspectives on the craft beer industry. It also really showcases the fact that HBT folks are pretty awesome.

 

[cadarnell]

No you're fine. You know what you are talking about. But don't try to belittle me by saying that. It does have a direct effect. Now what that retailer marks up, is up to them. Don't try to tell me that there is some universal mark up on all products across the freakin world Jack.

yea ... maybe DFH charges different wholesalers different prices too ... just to complicate the matter ..

but even if everyone, everywhere got the same price for the bomber, there would still be those who felt like they paid too much ... and if that feeling came about many times with the same much talked about brewery, they might begin to think the brewery was overrated ... and they might even make a post online about those feelings ... to me, that's great ... to sam calagione it's not.

to me he was wrong to post that thought there on BA, to you he was right to do it ... it's all good ... we are sharing opinions and that's a good thing IMO ... cheers

 

[Wolfhound180]

yea ... maybe DFH charges different wholesalers different prices too ... just to complicate the matter ..

but even if everyone, everywhere got the same price for the bomber, there would still be those who felt like they paid too much ... and if that feeling came about many times with the same much talked about brewery, they might begin to think the brewery was overrated ... and they might even make a post online about those feelings ... to me, that's great ... to sam calagione it's not.

to me he was wrong to post that thought there on BA, to you he was right to do it ... it's all good ... we are sharing opinions and that's a good thing IMO ... cheers

Agree to disagree.

 

[teal]

You keep referencing somebody forcing you to accept something. Nobody is forcing anything. The whole idea is that people will produce what they want to. If someone buys it, then it keeps the business going. Im not making you drink DFH. I don't like a lot of their stuff myself. But there is no reason to bust them up. I could spend weeks telling you about all of the beers that I dislike. Does it matter? No.

Agree completely. BUT once you've made the choice to purchase and the end result wasn't what you expected, based either on advertising or other people's recommendations, a reasonable person can understand that person's desire to let their displeasure known.

Not saying HOW they did it was right but doing it isn't wrong. Not to me.

If Sam is honestly worried about the future and economic viability of craft breweries, his or otherwise - maybe he should be listening a little bit more. If he's REALLY scared that the BA folks could kill him or a brother brewer and that's all it takes - I'm guessing he's smart enough to get out of the business all together before he lost his money/investment.

It's also the old adage that if you think all of your neighbors, coworkers and people on the street are arseholes - the problem isn't the neighbors.

In fact it might be argued that he has heard the complaints about pricing and his reaction was to frame the conversation as he's David vs Goliath and not about the actual price of beer. To an extent he is David but David is still a VERY big man. According to the Brewers Association - 2010 craft beer retail dollar value was 7.8 BILLION dollars. It's the little guy vs the big guy but the little guy isn't without his own strength and size.

If I walk into a local beer bar - one who caters to the mid scale beer drinker and I said "I want a beer that Dan Carey made" - I'd get questions, if I asked for one that Sam Calagione made? People would know whom I'm speaking about.

 

[cadarnell]

- maybe he should be listening a little bit more.

This :rockin:

 

[teal]

Also the reason you are privy to inexpensive beer in Ohio is because the same liquor stores receive a commission on their hard alcohols sold there with no purchase price. The liquor sold in an Ohio store is actually property of the state of Ohio and distributed to the store. They receive 4% commission on wholesale and 6% on retail. That's 6% on a 100 dollar bottle of scotch that they have exactly ZERO cost tied up into. Think about the booze sold just before the holidays. Heck my booze bill this year was over 200 and I MAKE my own beer. Others don't and spend accordingly. It subsidies other aspects of the store. Like how Microsoft loses money on their gaming systems but make it up on the games themselves. They can afford to take a hit on one end because the other end is so lucrative. Again - zero cost other than overhead, no purchase price at all but you get a chunk of everything you sell. It's really a great deal for the liquor store. Something doesn't sell - there's NO risk as it's really only owned by the State of Ohio. They pay for the shelf it's sitting on but if it doesn't sell - send it back or bury it in the stock room - there's no loss to the retailer.

The Ohio liquor market is artificially manipulated to some extent.

Again - I've no ill will towards Sam or even the price of his beer, I just understand WHY others might. That's all.

 

[Wolfhound180]

Also the reason you are privy to inexpensive beer in Ohio is because the same liquor stores receive a commission on their hard alcohols sold there with no purchase price. The liquor sold in an Ohio store is actually property of the state of Ohio and distributed to the store. They receive 4% commission on wholesale and 6% on retail. That's 6% on a 100 dollar bottle of scotch that they have exactly ZERO cost tied up into. Think about the booze sold just before the holidays. Heck my booze bill this year was over 200 and I MAKE my own beer. Others don't and spend accordingly. It subsidies other aspects of the store. Like how Microsoft loses money on their gaming systems but make it up on the games themselves. They can afford to take a hit on one end because the other end is so lucrative. Again - zero cost other than overhead, no purchase price at all but you get a chunk of everything you sell. It's really a great deal for the liquor store. Something doesn't sell - there's NO risk as it's really only owned by the State of Ohio. They pay for the shelf it's sitting on but if it doesn't sell - send it back or bury it in the stock room - there's no loss to the retailer.

The Ohio liquor market is artificially manipulated to some extent.

Oh wise one. What IS the best beer in the world? I'm sure that it is cheap, right? I don't like Belgians or lagers, does that mean that I can't possibly know what good beer is?

Are you arguing on the side of beer, or capitalism?

 

[cadarnell]

Also the reason you are privy to inexpensive beer in Ohio is because the same liquor stores receive a commission on their hard alcohols sold there with no purchase price. The liquor sold in an Ohio store is actually property of the state of Ohio and distributed to the store. They receive 4% commission on wholesale and 6% on retail. That's 6% on a 100 dollar bottle of scotch that they have exactly ZERO cost tied up into. Think about the booze sold just before the holidays. Heck my booze bill this year was over 200 and I MAKE my own beer. Others don't and spend accordingly. It subsidies other aspects of the store. Like how Microsoft loses money on their gaming systems but make it up on the games themselves. They can afford to take a hit on one end because the other end is so lucrative. Again - zero cost other than overhead, no purchase price at all but you get a chunk of everything you sell. It's really a great deal for the liquor store. Something doesn't sell - there's NO risk as it's really only owned by the State of Ohio. They pay for the shelf it's sitting on but if it doesn't sell - send it back or bury it in the stock room - there's no loss to the retailer.

The Ohio liquor market is artificially manipulated to some extent.

Again - I've no ill will towards Sam or even the price of his beer, I just understand WHY others might. That's all.

cool info .. we have something like that at the carpet store ... we get a commission on all the bath fixtures another local company sells ... they have their samples mounted on our mock-up showers ... we have nothing in the price of the product ... we just get better looking mock-up's and free money when somone buys the stuff ... it's a win win ..

I wish we had a mock-up fridge full of some two hearted ale .. haha

 

[teal]

Please post where I said you don't know what is or isn't good beer. Please post where I've said only cheap beer is good? I can't make New Glarus' Apple Ale - so I pay retail for it. Once I CAN make their ale - I'll prob not do that. Doesn't mean it wasn't worth the price when I bought it - just that it's NOT worth that price now....

The best beer in the world is the one that makes you happy. Price has NOTHING to do with the merit of the beer itself but it WILL influence the relative level of happiness you derive from it.

Look, you obviously don't like the idea that people can show displeasure with something they've paid for, regardless of price. Sam's free to either get down and argue with them, point for point or he's free to keep doing what he's doing. Particularly if his argument is that what he's doing is successful and has worth, I'd think he'd continue on instead of argue. I don't think for a moment that Sam's hording food stamps because he's just not making it. I don't think he drives the old Dodge because his local Honda dealer won't finance him a new Accord.

He determines the value of his time, he valued it enough to comment on BA. That's his choice - same as it was for those people who were negative about it.

I've said this over and over - I don't care what he charges, it's not a life sustaining deal for me, I don't HAVE to buy his product. No one does but when you do and don't feel you got your money's worth, and you determine that by deciding if that bottle was better than whatever the 10 bucks in your wallet could have purchased and to a GREAT extent that determination is based upon whatever expectations you had for the beer or what your palate is telling you - I don't think it should shock ANYONE, much less a guy as smart as he is that there's going to be negative press.

 

[teal]

cadarnell - read up on price anchoring sometime. Fascinating stuff.

The reason why a place might sell a beer at 15 bucks a bottle is to push more beer at 12 bucks a bottle.

To a lot of people a 12 dollar single bottle of beer is too much BUT compared to a 15 dollar bottle next to it - doesn't seem that bad and are willing to take a shot at it. They certainty don't want the 8 dollar cube of Old Style either - the 12 dollar bottle becomes the happy medium even tho the consumer might never ever consider that 12 dollar purchase otherwise. The retailer never really expects to sell all that much of the 15 dollar stuff but they use it to make the 12 dollar stuff move. Without the 15 dollar bottle, the 12 becomes too expensive and they sell a bunch of the 8 dollar bottle.

Obviously there are general limits to that - there's a window and it's tied to product but it's an interesting subject.

*the above applies to NO brewery specifically - general example.

Gnite all - we're in the middle of a blizzard and I need to shovel before work.

 

[cadarnell]

I don't think it should shock ANYONE, much less a guy as smart as he is that there's going to be negative press.

I know you said you thought he didn't just fire that post off without thought, from his kitchen ... but I still think he might have ... I really also think he might have hade a couple 120 minute IPA's before he did it

I'm still really sort of shocked that he posted at all.

 

[SittingDuck]

So what should he be listening to? Complaints that his beers are terrible corn spit jellybean concoctions and no one likes them? That he charges too much? So he listens and makes nothing but low-cost mass- appeal beers? Great, now DFH is BMC. Except he can't be that either, because he is overrated now that DFH is big and famous. So he should listen and be small and unpopular, like he was back when he was cool, man...

Or should he listen to the people who are enjoy his variety and willingess to take risks? Lots of people must believe his beer is worth $10-$15 per, or the stuff would expire on the shelf. Saying that the brewery is overrated and the beer sucks must be, objectively, false. DFH is huge in the craft world and sells a lot of beer to a lot of people. They do not find it overpriced or overhyped.

Subjectively, you are welcome to your opinion that the beer sucks and didn't live up to the hype. I hated Dead Guy. It did not live up to all the things I've heard. I bet all the people making Yooper's clone feel differently.

That's what many of us, and Sam, have been saying. You don't like his beer. Cool. You don't want to pay his prices. Cool, don't. But if you say, I don't like his beer or his prices, they didn't live up to my expectations, you sound like a reasoned individual stating an opinion. If you try his beer, and don't like it and the price and state that his beer is glorified skunk pi$$ and his whole operation is an overrated turdbox, you sound like a whiney b!tch. Worse, if you go on the internet and bash his beer and brewery that you didn't personally like, you may cause people coming to learn about his beer not to buy it, even if they would have been among the ones who called that their favorite beer.

Man that went long. Sorry.

 

[MalFet]

Meh. Sam has a reputation for shooting from the hip and making beer in a way that makes him happy. This notion that he should be nice to everybody is overrated.

I own a small business that grows and roasts coffee, an industry similar to beer in many ways. These kinds of things come up all the time. Every time I tell off a few snobs publicly, business goes up.

 

[cadarnell]

cadarnell - read up on price anchoring sometime. Fascinating stuff.

I will ... thanks man

 

[ClarnoBrewer]

There's a lot of truth to this. The notion that the customer is always right, or that the producer needs to value everyone's input is just false. Obviously you can't just be a dick to everyone, but there are people that aren't worthy of your efforts as a producer. And as you said, you tell off a few tools, and all the regular folks appreciate that. I work for a company that espouses that notion, and it hasn't hurt us any.

The funniest thing is to have a customer get pissed about policies, etc... and say they're going to call the owner. I LOVE telling them to go right ahead, knowing that it's going to be a surprise for them.

Meh. Sam has a reputation for shooting from the hip and making beer in a way that makes him happy. This notion that he should be nice to everybody is overrated.

I own a small business that grows and roasts coffee, an industry similar to beer in many ways. These kinds of things come up all the time. Every time I tell off a few snobs publicly, business goes up.

 

[MeatyPortion]

I hate DFH 120 and love DFH 60. This thread is tearing me apart.

 

[dcHokie]

I know you said you thought he didn't just fire that post off without thought, from his kitchen ... but I still think he might have ... I really also think he might have hade a couple 120 minute IPA's before he did it

I'm still really sort of shocked that he posted at all.

Ya know, something lost in the rapid fire posts of this thread (unless I missed it), craft brew drinkers are pretty lucky as consumers to have such a unique, intimate relationship with their end producers that a brewery head would care enough to post a response in a public forum, regardless of the execution. Very few industries with that type of direct contact between the exec and buyers.

 

[cadarnell]

Meh. Sam has a reputation for shooting from the hip and making beer in a way that makes him happy. This notion that he should be nice to everybody is overrated.

I own a small business that grows and roasts coffee, an industry similar to beer in many ways. These kinds of things come up all the time. Every time I tell off a few snobs publicly, business goes up.

I'm sure that might happen for him too ... but when someone in such a high position as he is, steps down to talk to all of us, I really don't see what's wrong with taking the high road ... there's plaenty of examples of the high road being good for business too.

I heard this story recently ... several years back, six flags of atlanta put out a lot of misleading and very negative adds about disney world ... they hit them hard and heavy for several months, trying to keep people from driving south for a vacation..

disney's response ??? ... nada .. nothing at all

eventually six flags gave up on the adds and actually CLEANED their park to get more business ..

the high road is working pretty well for micky and the bunch down there in orlando I think ...

not sure that all relates perfectly to this story here, but my point is ...there is nothing at all wrong with being nice ... especially when you are trying to sell things ..

 

[MalFet]

there is nothing at all wrong with being nice ... especially when you are trying to sell things ..

Nice is boring. There's nothing wrong with being a bit polarizing in crafting a brand. If nothing else, Sam has done a great job of that.

 

[cadarnell]

Ya know, something lost in the rapid fire posts of this thread (unless I missed it), craft brew drinkers are pretty lucky as consumers to have such a unique, intimate relationship with their end producers that a brewery head would care enough to post a response in a public forum, regardless of the execution. Very few industries with that type of direct contact between the exec and buyers.

yea ... you are probably right ... it is pretty cool I guess ...I'm probably shocked he said anything because I have only been drinking real craft stuff for a few years now .. homebrwing the last year of that .. just some perspective on me and my nutty posts ..

 

[ScootersAle]

Reading all this BA bashing just makes me think about how much I actually enjoy their magazine and the guys that actually work at BA. Don't get me wrong, any communtiy that rates Dark Lagers/Schwarzbier (my favorite style) beers badly because they are 'crappy stouts' doesn't sit well with me, but not all BA is bad or at least the community is not the guys that run the site.

Beer is very similar to restaurants, and it should be treated as such. If you don't like certain types of food, you probably shouldn't order it. It does require some self education to figure out what you look, but a review by some random person on a website shouldn't sway your tastes.

Also, if you are thinking the 120 min IPA price is stupid high, check out the BN's Can you brew it where Sean Paxton tries to make a clone of it. You'll understand why it is so $$$. I think it would help to rename it 120 min and take off the IPA and call it an American Barleywine. When I first tried it, I thought it was a triple IPA, and iirc it tasted more like a hoppy barleywine. Sadly we can't get it in VT because of dumb ABV % laws.

 

[RogueGoose85]

I agree with him. If it was posted by Joe Schmoe from Arkansas, I would have agreed with him, too. In every scene, in every hobby, in every interest (re: Music, Movies, Wine, Beer, Art, Literature, Sports..the list is infinite), there will be a group of people that hate on the "most popular", "most respected", or "big" entities of said scene or interest for really no other reason than to either 1) Form a comparative analysis and state: "this small, no-one-knows-about-but-me, just-started [insert thing here] is way better than this widely publicized, well-known, revolutionary [insert thing here]" in an attempt to show that they are more in the know, more in-tune with the obscure, and dig deeper than anyone else to find a good [thing]. or 2) To come off as elitist know-it-alls, which, while writing this, i realize, circles back to supportive point "1".

You see them everywhere, they have been around forever, and they will always be here. They want to wear a badge of honor in finding the "next big thing", while simultaneously not wanting them to become the "next big thing" for their selfish reasons. Its ridiculous.

I'll add Goose Island to the list --- SELLOUTS!!!! (said in jest).

 

[corkybstewart]

I got slammed for being a snob on BA when I responded that I don't use BA reviews to help me buy beer because I said that I don't really care how many people love Beer X, they have no idea what appeals to me. Somebody asked if I thought my palate was so much more refined than the other 25,000 people on BA,another one said the BA top 100 list was all anybody really needed to pick an excellent beer.
I like lots of beers others hate, I apparently hate a lot of beers other people love. I don't bash DFH for being successful, for having a TV show or any reasons other than I don't like any of their beers I've tasted. Call me a "hater" if you feel the need, but there's no way I'll follow what I consider hype-I either like it or don't and really don't care what anybody else likes or dislikes. I'm never looking for the next big thing, but I'm always looking for new beers to try and I prefer to do it without any bias from beer related forums of any kind.

 

[PanzerBanana]

I wouldn't say I'm a fan of DFH's brews in general, but I'm definitely a fan of how they brew. Their "normal" beers are really good they're more eclectic brews, all depend on on the taster. Whether I drink their beer or not(i'm in Indiana don't have an option anymore) I'll always be on their band wagon.

 

[tkirkm176]

Sam Calagione 2012!