Sam Adams Utopias clone - Calling all big beer experts! Paulthenurse and yeager1977

[paulthenurse]

Nope KMeta needs to go in with evey racking. You won't taste it and it's much better to add a little metabisulfite then lose $500 worth of beer

 

[JonAllenNH]

Thanks PtN. For my own educational knowledge, why? From what I know about KMeta it's a preservative, stabilizes flavors and color and prevents oxidization. Since this is a higher ABV beer wouldn't oxidization be slightly less of a concern? Obviously, I still don't want it to oxidize as much as possible, but I've been thinking about making a barleywine or a Wee Heavy for a while and everything I've read on those say oxidization can be a good thing to get a bit of a sherry type flavor. Plus, the real Utopias is barrel aged for 10+ years which would lead to some oxidization. Again, I'm not questioning your methods, just curious. You're the only one I know of that's attempted this beer before, so I don't take your advice lightly on this.

 

[paulthenurse]

It's the winemaker in me talking. There is no sense in not adding it. I don't know what percent of alcohol you need before it is bactericidal but why chance it? You can't detect 50 ppm, it won't effect your flavor. This stuff will be around for a long time, it would suck to have it go bad after 5 years.

And I REALLY doubt that SA keeps their Utopia in barrels for 10 years. A few years maybe.

 

[JonAllenNH]

According to their website they have some barrels that have been sitting since 1994 that go into Utopias. At least according to Jim.
Thanks. I'll pick up some KMeta before it's time to rack.

 

[JonAllenNH]

Almost a week into fermentation, I haven't touched it since Weds, looks like everything is starting to settle out. Very minimal activity in the airlock and looking at it from the outside there is a clear line at the bottom of trub falling out (finally). Looks like I have a little over 1 liter of trub at the bottom. No idea what the gravity is at the moment, but it's looking good and still chugging a long. It was approaching 1.030 when I stopped touching it on Weds. Oak is soaking (1oz in Bourbon and 1oz in Tawny Port). I'm going to let it sit in primary for another week before taking my gravity reading and 'racking' to secondary. Since it's in the FastFerment I don't need to rack in the traditional since, but rather just remove the trub/yeast collection ball. As I want it to be crystal clear, I'm considering racking to an empty carboy anyway, at least at some point in the process. Thanks for all the input and help along the way, guys. (@paulthenurse, @thatjonguy, @ten80) This brew was a blast and a learning experience for the next time I do bigger beers.

 

[paulthenurse]

It's your beer, do wHat you want but I would suggest taking a reading now while you still have some activity. If a week goes by before you see where your gravity stopped if you need to restart you'll have to get it going again from a dead stop in a hostile environment. Just my 2 cents.

 

[JonAllenNH]

Update: Fermentation is going well and I'm about to put it into secondary with the oak tomorrow. After letting it sit a while I took a gravity reading and it's at 1.024. Great flavor and great mouthfeel. Not too much, but still rich. Alcohol content, now pushing 26%, is noticeable, but not overpowering. Can't wait to see what the oak adds to it. I've had a half ounce of Hungarian Oak cubes soaking in port for a week and a half ounce soaking in bourbon. Will be adding them both tomorrow.

 

[paulthenurse]

Save yourself some bother and put the chips in a Muslim hop sock so they don't clog your hose a few months from now.

 

[JonAllenNH]

Yup, was planning on it. Thanks, Paul.

 

[JonAllenNH]

It's been a while, so just a quick update. Added the oak around the 1st of the month. It's been sitting ever since. Tasted last week and it was starting to blend, but still needed some time. Tasted again today and the flavor is great. A lot of the sweetness that was present last week (still easy to drink, just sweet) is now gone. I don't know if the yeast are somehow still active or if that's due to the oak...I'm leaning toward the later...I can't imagine those little guys are still around. In any event, I'm having an internal battle with myself as I'm going out of town for a week this weekend for work and I can't decide if I should take out the oak. It still needs a bit more, but it's pretty close. I'd hate to come home to over-oaked beer that I've been working on for months and poured money into...never oaked before, but I've heard oak doesn't really dissipate with age if it gets over-oaked. It's really quite a phenomenal beer though. I'm very happy so far.

 

[thatjonguy]

Take the oak out.

You can always take some fresh oak and your choice of alcohol to make a tincture. Add as needed at bottling/blending.

 

[paulthenurse]

I disagree. Leave it in. If you take it out and decide later on that it needs more you will end up putting new oak back in. That will give you more of the initial oak flavor that comes out of the wood, but not the stuff that comes out after the initial flavor components have come out. I'm not describing it well... Try this. If a given quantity of oak puts out a given amount of flavors from A through Z and the A flavors come out fast and furious but the Z flavors take time. So now a month has gone by. All of the a through O flavors have leached out. Given more time the P through Z flavors will come out and join the party. But if you yank out the wood now you're left with a half done flavor profile. If you add more oak later you'll end up with double the A flavors and probably no Z because you'll realize that your A profile is becoming overwhelming and yank out the oak then. Let what is in there go.

Just some thoughts from the voices in my head... And you should listen to them because I do all the time and look where it's gotten me.......



Maybe yanking the oak out is a good idea after all.

Nah. Leave it in there.

Lets sing...

A B C.
Easy as 123
Simple as do re mi
A B C
1 2 3
Voices talk to me.

 

[stpug]

... but I've heard oak doesn't really dissipate with age if it gets over-oaked....

Actually, oak DOES mellow and blend over time in a bottle. Of course, over-oaking is over-oaking, and you're better off not over-oaking.

Do you have the ability to simply remove half of your oak? When I add oak I put it in a strainer bag so it can be removed later on. The benefit is that once removed I could remove half of the oak and add it back if I desired to.

 

[paulthenurse]

Bueller? Bueller?

 

[JonAllenNH]

Sorry guys, been crazy busy. Tasted the beer before I left and it was pushing too much oak so I pulled it. After getting back last weekend I tasted it and the flavors are blending together more, but oak is still very prevalent. It's very nice, very complex. Plums, figs, malts, cloves, alcohol, deliciousness.

 

[JonAllenNH]

So the beer has been sitting for quite some time. It's really quite tasty, crystal clear, nice deep color. A little too much oak flavor, but it's right on the line of just right and too much. I might cut it with another bottle or two of Sam Adams Tetravis which was mixed in previously in the secondary to balance out the oak a bit more. All in all, I'm happy. Great after dinner drink!

 

[paulthenurse]

Congrats. Now you know you can do anything

 

[HDTVdevil]

While reading up on al these high-gravity brewe, I have been going gradually up in ABV (last one was 18% abv) and am planning a similar (not ment as an Utopias clone) strong brew in the coming weeks.

 

[paulthenurse]

Good luck Its a fun brew day, get a bunch of friends together and really make an event of it. The memories and the laughter will last a lot longer than the beer.

 

[Melana]

Good luck Its a fun brew day, get a bunch of friends together and really make an event of it. The memories and the laughter will last a lot longer than the beer.

Do it again

 

[paulthenurse]

Yup

 

[HDTVdevil]

Good luck Its a fun brew day, get a bunch of friends together and really make an event of it. The memories and the laughter will last a lot longer than the beer.

Good idea, then I have extra help to clean the mashtun

 

[JonAllenNH]

FINALLY DONE! Two racks, one from primary to secondary for aging and one for bottling. KMeta in both. Flavor is great. It'll be a really nice sipping/after dinner drink. A little more oak than I'd intended, even still, but overall very good. Some slight funk, plumbs and dark fruit, cinnamon flavors and alcohol warmth all come through despite the oak being stronger than I'd wanted. Decided to go fancy on the bottles since the guy who paid for this experiment basically paid $100/bottle. Hand dipping Belgian cork bottles in silver metallic (no higher than an inch or two from the top so beer only touches glass) to (hopefully) block nearly 100% of light making it great for aging. Labeled it with normal paper from a laser printer, then enameled the whole thing (again staying an inch or more short of the top). Corked with Zork closures so it has a pull tab, a tight seal for aging and can easily be removed and replaced. Finished it all off with a dip in blue wax. Personally, I think it's beautiful and worthy of the beer inside.

 

[specharka]

FINALLY DONE! Two racks, one from primary to secondary for aging and one for bottling. KMeta in both. Flavor is great. It'll be a really nice sipping/after dinner drink. A little more oak than I'd intended, even still, but overall very good. Some slight funk, plumbs and dark fruit, cinnamon flavors and alcohol warmth all come through despite the oak being stronger than I'd wanted. Decided to go fancy on the bottles since the guy who paid for this experiment basically paid $100/bottle. Hand dipping Belgian cork bottles in silver metallic (no higher than an inch or two from the top so beer only touches glass) to (hopefully) block nearly 100% of light making it great for aging. Labeled it with normal paper from a laser printer, then enameled the whole thing (again staying an inch or more short of the top). Corked with Zork closures so it has a pull tab, a tight seal for aging and can easily be removed and replaced. Finished it all off with a dip in blue wax. Personally, I think it's beautiful and worthy of the beer inside.

Wow. Color me impressed. Even commercial breweries struggle with beers this big. What was the combined OG/FG on this beast?

Incidentally I read a blog post recently where a guy challenged allegations that homebrewers can't make beer above 20% ABV, and he killed it. His process was very similar to yours -- any connection, perchance?

 

[JonAllenNH]

What was the combined OG/FG on this beast?

OG 1.212 to a FG of 1.000, rounded up to 28% ABV on the labels. I've never had Utopias, but my brother has. His big complaint about mine is that Utopias is thick like syrup and mine, obviously given the FG, is not. Drinks easy and it's smooth, though.

Incidentally I read a blog post recently where a guy challenged allegations that homebrewers can't make beer above 20% ABV, and he killed it. His process was very similar to yours -- any connection, perchance?

A connection in that I probably read it. I'm not sure which one you're referring to, but I read one that sounds very similar on Brew Your Own. Suffice it to say I read pretty much everything I could on brewing big beers before trying this one. Funny, now when I brew normal beers it's almost boring...

 

[gotbags-10]

What's with the kmeta? I've used it in wine obviously never heard of using it in beer.

 

[howamidriving]

Those bottles look amazing! Set that on the shelf next any high end craft bottle and I'd be none the wiser.

I've been causally following this thread and I'm excited this turned out for you!

 

[JonAllenNH]

What's with the kmeta? I've used it in wine obviously never heard of using it in beer.

It was a recommendation from PaulTheNurse. The owner of my LHBS seconded the recommendation. Much like in wine, it stabilizes the flavor and prevents oxidation. The oxidation was the big concern during the racking, though unlikely. In the log run, these are excellent cellar candidates so it stabilizes it for longer cellaring. Between the kmeta, the high abv and the bottles blocking nearly 100% of light and being corked with zorks and waxed...pretty sure it could be cellared nearly indefinitely.

 

[JonAllenNH]

I think next time I might shoot for 30% abv. See how far I can push the envelope. This round was only (ha, only) supposed to be 23.8% abv, then after a fast start to fermenting followed by a steady drop on the hydrometer it looked like it was going to stop around 26% (1.010FG) and then during the aging (after I'd given up on it going any lower as it held at 1.010 for about a week) the last bit snuck out for 28% (1.000FG). Crazy little drunk yeast.

 

[ten80]

What's with the kmeta? I've used it in wine obviously never heard of using it in beer.

kmeta is short for potassium metabisulfite. It is a reducing agent (opposite of oxidizing agent) that will bind dissolved oxygen and prevent oxidation. It will also inhibit or kill bacteria, preventing spoilage due to contamination. It is considered to have less of a flavor impact than sodium metabisulfite which results in sulfurous notes when used in high concentrations.

The drawback to kmeta is that it will inhibit (but not kill) yeast activity, so it may prevent bottle conditioning and carbonation when used at higher concentrations. I don't remember dosages off hand, but they are readily available from winemaking resources.